Bulls @ Suns game thread 11-19-17

[elindholm]

Ok one last try. There is a difference between being wrong or bad at your job and being naive. Naive means being inexperienced or having a lack of knowledge.

I think it can also mean getting outsmarted or having a lack of wisdom.

Front-office moves are about salesmanship. If you go to the car lot and drool over the one you want, forget about getting a good price. Some people have bought a dozen cars and never learned that lesson. That's naive.

I don't think McDonough is especially naive. It seems to me that he's made his fair share of decent moves. But he was exposed in the Bledsoe situation. First he got into a micturition contest with Bledsoe over social media, which made him look petty and devalued the player. Then he made the laughable announcement that he was considering several "tantalizing" offers, or some word like that, which everyone on this board instantly recognized as a bluff. As a result he took an asset of unknown value and put it on a death spiral, so that everyone knew that he'd have to take the first remotely palatable offer he got.

That was naive, in spades. He was ignorant and thoughtless about how his moves were going to play out, and he compounded the error by making a ridiculous claim that he knew what he was doing. He was going to get taken to the cleaners, and the only question was by whom.

At a poker table, the saying is, "If you can't spot the fish in the first five minutes, you're it." In any zero-sum game, experienced competitors are looking for telltale signs that their opposition is in over its head. McDonough might as well have posted a photo of himself with the caption, "I have no idea what I'm doing."

That's naive.

 

[Chaplin]

Wow, this board really has gone downhill. Do we all really hate each other this much?

 

[Hoop Head]

Wow, this board really has gone downhill. Do we all really hate each other this much?

That's what perpetually losing does to a fanbase, especially when the direction going forward is up in the air. Some want to tank again, some want to start improving, and others just want to see our youth develop and see what happens. No one is right and no one is wrong but it's created a tense environment because even small victories, like against the Bulls, cause some fans to get upset because it could hurt our draft positioning.

 

[Mainstreet]

It would be utter lunacy to view the youngest team in the NBA pushing .500 as some sort of wasted season.

That said... I don't want to use assets to bring in a competent PG right now. If we actually get to .500 and the playoffs seem like more than a pipe dream, do it then, but we shouldn't use up value to get a stop gap PG in a season that is developmental.

This could be one of the reasons the Suns did not pursue the Nuggets reported trade offer of Mudiay and a first round pick for Bledsoe.

 

[JCSunsfan]

This could be one of the reasons the Suns did not pursue the Nuggets reported trade offer of Mudiay and a first round pick for Bledsoe.

Yes. I agree. I know we need a point guard. And some are concerned about Booker running the point. But it is more important to get the right guy and that will probably take a little time. Ulis is not a starting caliber pg, but Booker really likes him, he can bring the ball up and dish effectively. He will cost us games with his defense, but (while it would be nice) winning is not the most important thing at the moment.

Mike James is fine for the back up pg for now. And this team is now passing the rock better than it has in years.

They should keep looking for a pg. But they should not settle for a stop gap.

 

[Mainstreet]

Yes. I agree. I know we need a point guard. And some are concerned about Booker running the point. But it is more important to get the right guy and that will probably take a little time. Ulis is not a starting caliber pg, but Booker really likes him, he can bring the ball up and dish effectively. He will cost us games with his defense, but (while it would be nice) winning is not the most important thing at the moment.

Mike James is fine for the back up pg for now. And this team is now passing the rock better than it has in years.

They should keep looking for a pg. But they should not settle for a stop gap.

We agree.

I think it's likely the Suns will wait until the off season to fill their need for a starting PG unless a smoking trade comes along. Any moves the Suns make now should be made with the future in mind.

 

[pokerface]

LOL, poker. The Force is fantasy. Needing a well run Front Office is reality.

Maybe you've put your finger on it. The approach of our Front Office is little more than, "Use the Force." Perhaps the Suns should enlist Inspector Clouseau to take over from the foam finger.

To say the front office needs to be better over and over really isn't saying anything.

 

[pokerface]

We agree.

I think it's likely the Suns will wait until the off season to fill their need for a starting PG unless a smoking trade comes along. Any moves the Suns make now should be made with the future in mind.

That's what I've been saying..glad you've come around MS.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

I am have resigned from the tank side of things. Lots of buzz within the local media that the constant losses are taking a toll on Booker. When you hear it from multiple people there probably is a source spreading that. The team needs to be building around him appropriately.

 

[JCSunsfan]

That's what I've been saying..glad you've come around MS.

Not exactly the same. But that dead horse is getting messy now.

 

[pokerface]

I am have resigned from the tank side of things. Lots of buzz within the local media that the constant losses are taking a toll on Booker. When you hear it from multiple people there probably is a source spreading that. The team needs to be building around him appropriately.

So what does that mean? Do some trade and give up on our future for some win now bs? Yeah right.

Some 21 year old that's under contract isn't calling the shots like that. He's staying and he's not running the team.

 

[pokerface]

Not exactly the same. But that dead horse is getting messy now.

Making moves for the future instead of for now is exactly what I've been saying.

 

[Mainstreet]

That's what I've been saying..glad you've come around MS.

I approach the game from entirely different direction. I embrace developing young talent but I do not embrace the mentality of persistent losing as strategy.

 

[pokerface]

I approach the game from entirely different direction. I embrace developing young talent but I do not embrace the mentality of persistent losing as strategy.

Well sounds like your "makes moves for the future" isn't totally consistent with winning now.

 

[Mainstreet]

Well sounds like your "makes moves for the future" isn't totally consistent with winning now.

Don't misquote me.

It's beginning to look on purpose.

I'm for the Suns developing their young talent whether it results in wins or losses.

 

[pokerface]

Don't misquote me.

It's beginning to look on purpose.

I'm for the Suns developing their young talent whether it results in wins or losses.

What you said.

"Any moves the Suns make now should be made with the future in mind."

My paraphrase.

"Make moves for the future"


Sounds pretty much the same to me.


And as far as "developing young talent"...who is saying we shouldn't?? That's all we have ...Of course they are going to be developed and played. That's a given and doesn't need to be said over and over.

 

[BC867]

What is the front office supposed to be doing? Be specific.

I have posted specifics about the ownership and Front Office, poker. BALANCE and PROFESSIONAL MANAGEMENT. Here is my recap.

Put together a roster that combines young, unproven players with vets (who are not in the twilight of their career).

One which balances offense with defense both in the front- and back-courts.

Stop trying gimmicks and extremes at the Point Guard position -- from three lead Guards competing for playing time to two backups who are not qualified to alternate the leads.

Budget to hire a General Manager and a Head Coach who bring leadership experience to the job.

An ownership group who will demand that the Managing General Partner balance the budget but not involve himself in the decisions on the court. And certainly not act as General Manager or meet with the GM or Head Coach daily to make their decisions.

And provide a management team that will no longer make our Suns the laughingstock of the NBA which is our current status outside of the Phoenix market. And within as well.


The word to describe Suns management during these disappointing years is incompetence. A group without a plan.

A ownership group needs to realize that fans who have been supporting the Suns for decades are a lot more knowledgeable than they think, which affects their revenue.


Although a long-time fan, I have no NBA experience. But, as I've mentioned, I have decades of management experience within industry. The same concepts apply. That is the point of view my posts have represented.

 

[Mainstreet]

What you said.

"Any moves the Suns make now should be made with the future in mind."

My paraphrase.

"Make moves for the future"


Sounds pretty much the same to me.


And as far as "developing young talent"...who is saying we shouldn't?? That's all we have ...Of course they are going to be developed and played. That's a given and doesn't need to be said over and over.

You misquoted me in your previous post.

Stop it.

I'm not surprised they sound the same to you.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I have posted specifics about the ownership and Front Office, poker. BALANCE and PROFESSIONAL MANAGEMENT. Here is my recap.

Put together a roster that combines young, unproven players with vets (who are not in the twilight of their career).

One which balances offense with defense both in the front- and back-courts.

Stop trying gimmicks and extremes at the Point Guard position -- from three lead Guards competing for playing time to two backups who are not qualified to alternate the leads.

Budget to hire a General Manager and a Head Coach who bring leadership experience to the job.

An ownership group who will demand that the Managing General Partner balance the budget but not involve himself in the decisions on the court. And certainly not act as General Manager or meet with the GM or Head Coach daily to make their decisions.

And provide a management team that will no longer make our Suns the laughingstock of the NBA which is our current status outside of the Phoenix market. And within as well.


The word to describe Suns management during these disappointing years is incompetence. A group without a plan.

A ownership group needs to realize that fans who have been supporting the Suns for decades are a lot more knowledgeable than they think, which affects their revenue.


Although a long-time fan, I have no NBA experience. But, as I've mentioned, I have decades of management experience within industry. The same concepts apply. That is the point of view my posts have represented.

Unfortunately management experience in some industries is in no way relatable to others. For instance, I’ve been in senior leadership of a large national organization for over a decade. But when I peek into the entertainment industry via cheese I find that none of the rational business acumen I possess holds weight. I dare say the same is not only true in professional sports, but likely even moreso given the fact that the driving personnel are typically limited in their education, have been coddled since their talents first became apparent, and tend to make very foolish decisions. And the owners, by and large, unlike the Jerry colangelos (which are few and far between) made their fortunes in other industries and didn’t rise through the ranks of pro basketball to attain their positions of authority. In fact, the more I think about it the more I believe that any experience any of us have in any non-pro sports industry is completely meaningless and non-translatable to sports team ownership and management.

 

[pokerface]

You misquoted me in your previous post.

Stop it.

I'm not surprised they sound the same to you.

 

[pokerface]

I have posted specifics about the ownership and Front Office, poker. BALANCE and PROFESSIONAL MANAGEMENT. Here is my recap.

Put together a roster that combines young, unproven players with vets (who are not in the twilight of their career).

One which balances offense with defense both in the front- and back-courts.

Stop trying gimmicks and extremes at the Point Guard position -- from three lead Guards competing for playing time to two backups who are not qualified to alternate the leads.

Budget to hire a General Manager and a Head Coach who bring leadership experience to the job.

An ownership group who will demand that the Managing General Partner balance the budget but not involve himself in the decisions on the court. And certainly not act as General Manager or meet with the GM or Head Coach daily to make their decisions.

And provide a management team that will no longer make our Suns the laughingstock of the NBA which is our current status outside of the Phoenix market. And within as well.


The word to describe Suns management during these disappointing years is incompetence. A group without a plan.

A ownership group needs to realize that fans who have been supporting the Suns for decades are a lot more knowledgeable than they think, which affects their revenue.


Although a long-time fan, I have no NBA experience. But, as I've mentioned, I have decades of management experience within industry. The same concepts apply. That is the point of view my posts have represented.

It still sounds like generalities to me.

What specific players are we to be targeting?

What players are we willing to give up?

What owner are we supposed to have?

What general manager is to be targeted .. ...and available?

What are we trying to accomplish in the near term...or long term... exactly.

I don't see the disaster you are seeing. We have solid young talent that look promising. We have multiple draft picks...our own and other teams. We have flexibility with our salary...we aren't over extended. We don't need to rush anything right now. Our season starts in the offseason.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I think a lot of posters are so focused on the past and that’s where the teeth gnashing lies. I’m not so upset. And it’s not because we are tanking but it’s because I’m excited looking forward. I see is with a plethora of young talent (Booker and Jackson) and potential (bender, chriss, Ulis, Reed, big sauce) and draft picks (and likely a high one this year). As well as jettisoning Watson. So I look at where we are NOW and see some light at the end of the tunnel. Does that make sense to some of you critics?

 

[Hoop Head]

I am have resigned from the tank side of things. Lots of buzz within the local media that the constant losses are taking a toll on Booker. When you hear it from multiple people there probably is a source spreading that. The team needs to be building around him appropriately.

Sources? A few articles have been posted about Booker but I haven't seen anything in a week or so, the last was an ESPN interview talking to him about the Suns post Eric Bledsoe. Bickley wrote an article where he complained about the state of the Suns and Booker's happiness but it seemed to contradict a few things I've heard come from Booker and other Suns insiders. Bickley's Suns coverage isn't just poor it's atrocious because it's all speculation. Gambo is one of the few local sources who can be trusted in regards to his Suns info and he hasn't said anything outside of what most know regarding Booker's status with the team. The Suns are actually close to 500 under Triano, going 7-8 so far. I can't see Booker asking out this year unless the Suns did something really stupid this season to set them back.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Sources? A few articles have been posted about Booker but I haven't seen anything in a week or so, the last was an ESPN interview talking to him about the Suns post Eric Bledsoe. Bickley wrote an article where he complained about the state of the Suns and Booker's happiness but it seemed to contradict a few things I've heard come from Booker and other Suns insiders. Bickley's Suns coverage isn't just poor it's atrocious because it's all speculation. Gambo is one of the few local sources who can be trusted in regards to his Suns info and he hasn't said anything outside of what most know regarding Booker's status with the team. The Suns are actually close to 500 under Triano, going 7-8 so far. I can't see Booker asking out this year unless the Suns did something really stupid this season to set them back.

Bickley loves to stir stuff up, and he loves to be negative. I heard and interview with Booker on the day of the Laker game and they asked him if losing was wearing on him. He said that he understood the team was young, and he takes pride in being a young team and competing. Said that he needs to step up and provide the leadership that will lead to wins. No sense of wanting out. Booker is not that type of guy.

 

[pokerface]

Bickley loves to stir stuff up, and he loves to be negative. I heard and interview with Booker on the day of the Laker game and they asked him if losing was wearing on him. He said that he understood the team was young, and he takes pride in being a young team and competing. Said that he needs to step up and provide the leadership that will lead to wins. No sense of wanting out. Booker is not that type of guy.

I'm glad you posted this.

Booker isn't the type of player to stir up trouble or make waves. He's not going to demand a trade this early in his career and this early in his first contract. He's definitely not going to demand out this season.

The only time it gets serious to make sure Booker is totally happy is in the last couple years of his next contract IMO. That means we have years to work with him.