Calvin Pace in a Sun Devils uni (#48). Let him play the edge. What do you have?

[Lomax to Green 84]

I have 2 Arizona State games taped (Holiday Bowl and Stanford game) and it really is amazing how much they moved Terrell Suggs around on that defensive line. The coaching staff at ASU gave him every concievable opportunity to get pressure on the quarterback. I counted in the Stanford game where he moved from right to left end at least 12 times during the game and there were times when the guy was a full 3 yards wider then everyone else (on the edge).

Now put Calvin Pace in a Sun Devils uniform, slap a #48 on his back and put him way out on the edge, move him all over the line, pin his ears back and see what happens. Maybe not 24 sacks (ala Suggs) but I guarantee the kid gets more than the 8 he had at Wake Forest. It really is amazing that a kid who played end in a 3-4 defense was an 8 sack guy. What would Terrell Suggs have done if the tables were reversed and he had to play left end in a 3-4 for Wake Forest? Does Suggs still get 24 sacks in that situation?

 

[hef]

Originally posted by Holian
I have 2 Arizona State games taped (Holiday Bowl and Stanford game) and it really is amazing how much they moved Terrell Suggs around on that defensive line. The coaching staff at ASU gave him every concievable opportunity to get pressure on the quarterback. I counted in the Stanford game where he moved from right to left end at least 12 times during the game and there were times when the guy was a full 3 yards wider then everyone else (on the edge).

Now put Calvin Pace in a Sun Devils uniform, slap a #48 on his back and put him way out on the edge, move him all over the line, pin his ears back and see what happens. Maybe not 24 sacks (ala Suggs) but I guarantee the kid gets more than the 8 he had at Wake Forest. It really is amazing that a kid who played end in a 3-4 defense was an 8 sack guy. What would Terrell Suggs have done if the tables were reversed and he had to play left end in a 3-4 for Wake Forest? Does Suggs still get 24 sacks in that situation?

i was realy pissed when we didn't draft suggs , but i am now very pleased w/ pace for the above reasoning.

would suggs get 24 sacks in a 3 man front ? hell no try 8-10 maybe less

how many sacks would pace have had if he was used like suggs was ? i think you could pretty much double his 8 sacks like 15-17

 

[Goldfield]

I agree with the reasoning here, so pass me the cardinal cool-aid also!

 

[kerouac9]

This is totally comparing apples and oranges. How many sacks would Dwight Freeney have had in a 3-3-5? Or Jevon Kearse? Or Simeon Rice?

How many sacks and tackles for loss would John Kearney have if he played in a 4-3?

It takes two totally different types of players to be a DE in a 4-3 and a 3-4. That's why Willie McGinest played DE in a 4-3 and OLB in a 3-4. Richard Seymour is a tackle in a 4-3, but a DE in a 3-4.

Apparently, the organization has determined that we don't need a speed-rushing DE, a la Simeon, Kearse, or Freeney. Instead, we want big DEs like Vanden Bosch and Pace, who might be able to rush the passer, but probably are meant to tie up blockers so fast, little LBs like Thompson and Fisher (and Colvin if we'd gotten him) can rush the passer from the edge.

 

[Lomax to Green 84]

Yeah but Pace is actually faster than Suggs.

 

[Goldfield]

Originally posted by kerouac9
This is totally comparing apples and oranges. How many sacks would Dwight Freeney have had in a 3-3-5? Or Jevon Kearse? Or Simeon Rice?

How many sacks and tackles for loss would John Kearney have if he played in a 4-3?

It takes two totally different types of players to be a DE in a 4-3 and a 3-4. That's why Willie McGinest played DE in a 4-3 and OLB in a 3-4. Richard Seymour is a tackle in a 4-3, but a DE in a 3-4.

Apparently, the organization has determined that we don't need a speed-rushing DE, a la Simeon, Kearse, or Freeney. Instead, we want big DEs like Vanden Bosch and Pace, who might be able to rush the passer, but probably are meant to tie up blockers so fast, little LBs like Thompson and Fisher (and Colvin if we'd gotten him) can rush the passer from the edge.

And most importantly STOP the run...

 

[kerouac9]

Originally posted by Holian
Yeah but Pace is actually faster than Suggs.

Sure he is... You like to have your slower athletes playing LB and your faster ones playing DE in a 3-3-5.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Re: Re: Calvin Pace in a Sun Devils uni (#48). Let him play the edge. What do you have?

Originally posted by hef
i was realy pissed when we didn't draft suggs , but i am now very pleased w/ pace for the above reasoning.

would suggs get 24 sacks in a 3 man front ? hell no try 8-10 maybe less

how many sacks would pace have had if he was used like suggs was ? i think you could pretty much double his 8 sacks like 15-17

Hef, what is this based on? Did you watch a lot of Wake Forrest games? An honest question, because without watching this kid play, I'm not sure how you can judge what he would have done in another system.

 

[Goldfield]

Originally posted by kerouac9
Sure he is... You like to have your slower athletes playing LB and your faster ones playing DE in a 3-3-5.

according to their 40's, Pace is faster...

not that that matters to me

 

[Goldfield]

Re: Re: Re: Calvin Pace in a Sun Devils uni (#48). Let him play the edge. What do you have?

Originally posted by cheesebeef
Hef, what is this based on? Did you watch a lot of Wake Forrest games? An honest question, because without watching this kid play, I'm not sure how you can judge what he would have done in another system.

Who cares, Pace is an upgrade....

 

[Cheesebeef]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Calvin Pace in a Sun Devils uni (#48). Let him play the edge. What do you have?

Originally posted by BEERZ
Who cares, Pace is an upgrade....

Well, I personally agree about who cares about Suggs v. Pace because it's a moot point. I was just refering to more an opinion clouded by homerism based on nothing more than love of the team, rather than usin what you've seen and what not.

As far as Pace being an upgrade, Good lord I hope that's the case. It would b pretty hard to be worse than Wakefield, especially as a 1st round pick.

 

[JeffGollin]

Well, I personally agree about who cares about Suggs v. Pace because it's a moot point.
Second that. There's no objective measure for comparison. We'll see what happens when it happens.

 

[Goldfield]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Calvin Pace in a Sun Devils uni (#48). Let him play the edge. What do you have?

Originally posted by cheesebeef
Well, I personally agree about who cares about Suggs v. Pace because it's a moot point. I was just refering to more an opinion clouded by homerism based on nothing more than love of the team, rather than usin what you've seen and what not.

As far as Pace being an upgrade, Good lord I hope that's the case. It would b pretty hard to be worse than Wakefield, especially as a 1st round pick.

Holian is just gettin pumped for the season... I am also, I truly believe Pace will be a good player... I for one didnt want atweener as a #6 pick...

 

[Cheesebeef]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Calvin Pace in a Sun Devils uni (#48). Let him play the edge. What do you ha

Originally posted by BEERZ
Holian is just gettin pumped for the season... I am also, I truly believe Pace will be a good player... I for one didnt want atweener as a #6 pick...

Yeah, I was leery of Suggs also. I need training camp to get here!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[hef]

Re: Re: Re: Calvin Pace in a Sun Devils uni (#48). Let him play the edge. What do you have?

Originally posted by cheesebeef
Hef, what is this based on? Did you watch a lot of Wake Forrest games? An honest question, because without watching this kid play, I'm not sure how you can judge what he would have done in another system.

never realy watched the games in full but i heve seen alot of footage on pace. my statement is based on his fluid movement ,nice speed, and his sure athletic ability plus the fact asu plays in a very pass happy division and would be used as a sack specialist like suggs was and if getting to the qb was basicly his only job and the deffensive sceme focused around him getting to the qb (which is one liesure that suggs had and alot of people seem to forget that) one could asssume that w/ his atributes he should be able to double his sack numbers or at least come close imo.

 

[Lex]

I'm not sure that I'll ever forgive the Cardinals for passing on Suggs. The Baltimore game here, on Oct. 12, could get ugly for this orginization if Suggs, and the other Cards on that team come in here and embarrass us.

That being said, I have nothing against Pace. I hope he turns out to be better than Suggs.

I am however, getting sick and tired of the people that defend the decision to pass on Suggs based on some idea that he can't play the 4-3. HE PLAYED IN A 4-3! Calvin Pace played in a 3-4, yet somehow, he's better suited to a 4-3? Bull.

Suggs is such a stud defensive player, they moved him all over the field, I think he was the top defensive player in the country last year. (he DID win that award) When a player is that good, you take him and let him win games for you SOMEHOW.

We will be sorry for a long, long, time about this error. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

 

[Goldfield]

This aint college... Like it or not, Suggs is to small for DE in the nfl, unless he has the speed and strength to compensate... His numbers worked against him. He may be great, or he may not. But I was not ready to roll the dice on a tweener with a ton of potential at the #6... This team cant afford to miss on a big pick like that.

 

[Dback Jon]

Originally posted by Lex
I'm not sure that I'll ever forgive the Cardinals for passing on Suggs. The Baltimore game here, on Oct. 12, could get ugly for this orginization if Suggs, and the other Cards on that team come in here and embarrass us.

That being said, I have nothing against Pace. I hope he turns out to be better than Suggs.

I am however, getting sick and tired of the people that defend the decision to pass on Suggs based on some idea that he can't play the 4-3. HE PLAYED IN A 4-3! Calvin Pace played in a 3-4, yet somehow, he's better suited to a 4-3? Bull.

Suggs is such a stud defensive player, they moved him all over the field, I think he was the top defensive player in the country last year. (he DID win that award) When a player is that good, you take him and let him win games for you SOMEHOW.

We will be sorry for a long, long, time about this error. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

Lex,
Listening to you, you would think that Suggs is the second coming of Butkus, L.T. etc, combined.
Suggs is no sure thing - like any other player in the draft. He will probably be good - but remember, 9 other teams passed on him as well.
And remember, many college players are studs in college, but never amount to jack in the NFL - Brian Bosworth ring a bell?

 

[Lex]

Dback- you bring up the other thing that bugs me, "9 other teams passed on him" Bull. The teams that took offensive players didn't pass on him, the teams that needed tackles didn't pass on him either. This and the "tweener" thing, with the "he's not suited to a 4-3," are the three falsehoods used by the people trying to justify the reasoning for not taking Suggs. Pace and Suggs are the same size.

We passed on Suggs, because we were so afraid Johnson would be gone by our 2nd round pick, and we got two 1st round players for 2 million less than we'd have spent on the 6 pick.

Oh by the way, I think Suggs will be a 10 year pro bowler, and he could end up being compared to players like Deacon Jones, an innovator at the rush position. Suggs already holds the all time NCAA sack record.

 

[earthsci]

Originally posted by Lex
Bull...the teams that needed tackles didn't pass on him either.

4. Jets
DT Dewayne Robertson

6. Saints
DT Johnathan Sullivan

9. Vikings
DT Kevin Williams

10. Ravens
DE Terrell Suggs

 

[earthsci]

Originally posted by Lex
Suggs already holds the all time NCAA sack record.

Also, that's a misleading statement. He might hold the record but, the NCAA didn't even keep sack stats until a few years ago. Russ could probably give you the exact year.

 

[Dback Jon]

Originally posted by earthsci
4. Jets
DT Dewayne Robertson

6. Saints
DT Johnathan Sullivan

9. Vikings
DT Kevin Williams

10. Ravens
DE Terrell Suggs

Ok Lex - so the Jets, Vikes, Saints and Cards passed on him.

 

[Lex]

Misleading statement?

He IS the all time NCAA sack record holder, no?

Would his record mean any more if the stat had been kept for 50 years?

Is there any way to prove that he wouldn't STILL have the all time record if the stat had been kept for 50 years?

 

[Lex]

Dback- you missed the point. If a quarterback is chosen #1 overall because that team needed a quarterback, they didn't pass on a DE.

If receivers are taken #2 and #3 because those teams needed wideouts, they didn't pass on a DE.

If a tackle is taken #4 because a team needed a defensive tackle, they didn't pass on a DE.

If a corner is taken #5 because a team needed a corner, they didn't pass on a DE.

If a team has the #6 pick, and has been DEAD LAST in sacks for the last TWO YEARS, you'd think they'd take the #1 sacker in the country. But no...that player went at #10, and was the first DE taken in the draft. No team that needed a DE passed on Suggs...except us.

 

[Assface]

I think Suggs can be a successful de in the NFL. Jason Taylor led the league in sacks last year and he only wieghs 240. Last year everyone said the Colts reached on Freeney because he was too small, and he had a great year. As a 3-4 olb he should put up very good sack numbers this year. That being said, I'm looking forward to seeing what Pace can do. He has good size and speed and from what I hear he is athletic enough to be a good pass rusher. There's a lot of posts saying "how can you say he's going to be good if you haven't seen him play?" How can you say he sucks and is a bad pick if you haven't seen him play?

This kills me to say, but let's trust the scouts a little bit. We've made bad picks in the past but those have been on very highly touted players, not reaches. Everyone said Thomas Jones was going to rush for 1200 yards every year. Everyone said Wadsworth was the next Bruce Smith. How about our scouts finding the players that no one else thought were any good. Mckinnon, Shipp, Lassiter etc. Let's see how Pace does before we blast him and say we should've taken Suggs.