Cardinals 20 Packers 13: Notes and Observations

spanky

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Tango and Walter;

Good debate going on and very pleased it is respectful. Some interesting food for thought out of both sides.
 

Rats

Somanyfreaks,SofewCircus'
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Originally posted by Russ Smith
Don't tell Holmgren that, like Shanahan he denies he plays the WCO although he admits his offense is based on what he ran in SF.

That's a very valid point though we should have more luck pressuring Bulger because they run deeper routes.
Bulger has shown that he is calm when pressured but with out a gamebreaking runner he will have his share of miscues...we may end up seeing Warner...but only if Bulger is dreadful...which means what you said would be true..we will have more luck pressuring Bulger...but not because of deeper routes....they run more slants to get Yac than any team I have seen. They will fly Bruce twice a half and he usually gets open but otherwise it's slants and posts....no tightend play and Marshall on swing plays...they won't have that as much of an option...and with no decent fullback....our LB might actually prove this week there the "strength of the team".........:thumbup:
 

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Originally posted by Tangodnzr
I agree with Russ, I think you bring up a very valid point in regard to the WC offenses.
However, I think you are mistaken on what Walter "said".
That was me and someone else even before me, on another thread, I can't remember who . . . that said that.
What Walter said was:

There is nothing new about this defense...it's the same read and react, bend but don't break system that has been in place for years here...in fact, this defense looks more passive and conservative as ever through three games. And, sorry to say, it stinks. It flat-out stinks. And it's probably going to cost Mac his job, unless he can somehow slide by this year and bring in a difference maker as defensive coordinator next year.

And as to saying now that the Cards won't get any pressure is a bit premature wouldn't you say?
IF you mean premature like saying "And it's probably going to cost Mac his job"...then yes Tango....How you can say that the teams defense "stinks" but in the next breath say that it's premature for me to say we won't get pressure is playing both sides...but I think you have always been good at that. What I was refering to with Walter was his comment about the coaches have adjusted to not having players on the definsive side of the ball and they have been able to adapt...thats all.
 

Rats

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I stand corrected as I reread the post...Walter didn't say it but some one else did in another post and you reiterated it in this thread....:bang: :bang: :bang:
 

Tangodnzr

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Rats, the paragraph in blue is what WALTER said, not me. I apologize for not including quotation marks there...I usually do, I just got a little lazy.

..and all I was referring to in regard to the "premature" comment was your saying: "our Defense will be tested especially at cornerback because again we will not get pressure. Maybe some tip balls for turnovers but not much pressure."
 

Rats

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Originally posted by Tangodnzr
Rats, the paragraph in blue is what WALTER said, not me. I apologize for not including quotation marks there...I usually do, I just got a little lazy.

..and all I was referring to in regard to the "premature" comment was your saying: "our Defense will be tested especially at cornerback because again we will not get pressure. Maybe some tip balls for turnovers but not much pressure."
We will see if the turnovers are the differance this week or if the line play can again give us a healthy margin in time of possession...and I guess that tipped balls by our lineman might qualify as some pressure......:D
 

ASUCHRIS

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Originally posted by spanky
Tango and Walter;

Good debate going on and very pleased it is respectful. Some interesting food for thought out of both sides.

Very respectful? Respectful conversations don't involve calling the other person a "wolf in lambs' faux coat". There is no need for an editorial comment like that. By the way Tango, in general, I think an overwhelming majority of the board thinks Walter is dead on in his analysis, so excuse his inclusion of you into "we".
 
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Walter Mitchell

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Thanks, ASUChris, I appreciate your comments.

This is a high school football story...so, in some ways it may not apply directly to pro strategies, but the spirit of it does apply to the game itself...and after all, football is football.

One year I had a very high powered offense, but my defense was weak and was having difficulty stopping anyone. After a bitter 38-35 loss in a game that seesawed back and forth, with the opponents scoring the winning TD on their last possession, I gathered my assistants aside and I vowed that somehow, someway we weren't going to have to endure 7 yard runs and a cloud of dust all afternoon...and have to watch somewhat easy pass completions all day(because we were getting no pressure on the QBs).

My assitants looked at me like I was crazy when at Monday's practice I put in the "gap 7" defense.

I lined two of my tallest, toughest defenders and stood them in the A gaps (between the center and guard). I told them to fire the gaps and get to the QB as fast as they could.

Then I stood a player in every B and C gap and asked them to do the same.

I also lined up a defensive end on the outside eye of the TE...and called his responsibility the D gap (contain). His instruction was to hammer/pinch down on the TE on the snap to delay his release...and then get upfield for contain. He was also instructed to pick up the nearest RB, man for man, if the RB was releasing for a swing pass. (Same RB pass instruction for the weak side anchor-C gap end).

I kept my best tackler at MLB and used my best three DBs in two coverages (man to man...and a three man zone).

We were playing the best team with the premier offense in the league. Excellent "power I" running attack, complimented by an accurate 6'3" QB and two tall, speedy WRs.

I said to my coaches all week, "no matter what, we are going to attack this offense. If we give a big play here and there, so be it. But we are going to get into their backfield no matter what it takes."

In practice the defense was creating immediate havoc for my good offense...and my defensive players were getting pretty excited about rushing the gaps and busting up plays.

I'll never forget the bewildered look on the opposing QBs face on the first play of the game. He juggled the snap and one of my two lanky "A gap" players grabbed him by the shoulder pads and sacked him for a three yard loss. From that play forward, my kids were busting up play after play. When the opponents tried quick passes, the passes were either overthrown (one for a nice interception) or tipped. The opponents used all three timeouts in the first quarter, to no avail.

My offense was sputtering (probably from losing some timing and confidence from playing against the gap 7 all week in practice), but managed to score before the end of the half. We led 7-0 at halftime.

My assitant coaches were telling me we would have to go back to our base defense at times in the second half, fearing that the other team would make adjustments at half time. I told them we were sticking to the gap 7 the whole game.

On the first series of the second half, my quarterback threw a poor pass. It was intercepted for a TD. We blocked the extra point and remained in the lead at 7-6.

My kids kept forcing three and outs the whole third quarter (still in the gap 7), making all kinds of gang tackles.

We kicked a 19 yard field goal at the end of the third quarter: 10-6.

The next possession, they hit the TE for a 20 yard gain up the seam...but fumbled the exchange the next play. Timely turnover, to say the least.

On a third and eight, we got lucky...caught them, trying to give us a taste of our own medicine by throwing a full house blitz at us, and we had the right play called, a delay screen to our tailback. Watching the tape after, it was incredible...my tailback caught the lob from the QB, who threw the ball with literally six defeders chasing him, and my tailback turned to see our entire offensive line in front of him and practically not a defender in sight. It was an easy 65 yard TD.

That took the wind out of the opponents' sails completely and our kids were celebrating a 17-6 win on the road against the best team in the league.

We stayed with the gap 7 and mixed in some base and nickle defenses the remaining three games...and ran the table.

The thing was, the gap 7 was able to change my kids' mentality about playing defense. And it made me realize more than ever that there is really only one way to play defense if you want your players to love playing defense: attack and pressure.

My point in relating this story is...Mac and Marmie can create pressure and an attack mentality if they choose to...through outnumbering the blockers (even if it's to one side)...and by creating confusion by blitzing, slanting and stunting up front or, better yet, by firing the gaps.

The questions I asked Tang...when was the last time you saw a Cardfinal DL or LB make a play in the backfield?...a sack?...from a DL, LB or DB?...or the last time you saw the Cardinals bust up a play in the backfield?

The reason the Cardinals don't is a reflection of a defense that plays on its heels, not on its toes. I suggest that defenses that play on their heels do not have any fun on the football field. Defenses that attack and embrace the attack mentality do. It's not fun to watch the Cardinals play defense...and it certainly doesn't look like it's fun for the players to play it.
 

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Great story Walt...keep em coming...:thumbup: But with due respect...our personel on D is not what it needs to be to shoot the gaps even like the Ravens do intermittantly. We would have to go 3-4 and use more LB speed and that would tend to give up a lot of big plays. If we had shutdown corners we could do this. I'm not dogging our D...they overacheive with the little pressure they have been able to get so far. They just need to continue forcing turnovers. Marmie and Mac havn't lost this group and I think they are having some fun out there. Just win a few in a row and stay healthy and this D and team...could suprise.
 

JeffGollin

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Different Take on Our Defense

Loved the dialog between Tango and Walter (when it remained civil).

My own take on the Cardinal defense:

Defensive Line:
Walter is right - the D-Line hasn't been a dominating force, but it has played better than last year: (1) Our DE's haven't been sucked in as much on sweeps and waggles. (2) I'm not sure if Barron Tanner shed weight, is starting to get into condition or what - but he started to throw some of that weight around vs. GB. Burning question is: "Can he keep it up?" (3) Bell is back. I think we're all waiting to see what Marcus and Wendell can do when they're both on the field at the same time.

One bright spot - while Pace (who, incidently has zero sacks compared to Suggs' three) continues to learn his craft, Dennis Johnson on the other side is starting to look more comfortable and is beginning to handle the run competently on the left side.

More and more, I think that the best way this D-Line can become effective is when it starts to play effectively as a unit. This may mean 2 - 3 guys putting pressure on the passer and 1 - 2 other guys getting their hands up to block the QB's passing lanes - and this may vary from offensive play to play and from defensive scheme to scheme - and often "on the fly." So far, however, they're not playing well enough as a unit, but this figures to get better as the season progresses.

Linebacker:
I agree about McKinnon. But did anyone else notice that - after Ronnie-Mac failed to cover the fullback on that Texas Wheel play, the Cards brought in James Darling, and on a few subsequent plays, Darling was coming up to stop the RB at the LOS?

Marmie is mixing up blitz and coverage packages. Our OLB's aren't doing more in the enemy backfield because we've been facing teams who are very effective in the short passing game to TE's, RB's and slot receivers. We've had to keep our LB's back in coverage more often to address this.

Cornerback:
Still our Achilles. Barrett is "doing OK." Rhinehart missed the GB receiver on that key 4Q crossing pattern that almost cost us the ballgame. Hill continues to be overmatched against faster opponents. Thank God for McDaniel (who already is starting to make a contribuition as a nickel guy) - but don't expect him to be a starter. Note - Kudos to McDaniel and Hill for keeping the GB wideout in bounds on that one play late in the game.

Safety:
D-Jax is the consummate "center fielder", but Wilson is not filling the complimentary role of "The Deluxe Hitter" (who can be 8th guy in the box" when called on) as well as we all hoped.

Bottom Line - We're better than last year, but we're not the Ravens (not by a longshot). But there's no reason we shouldn't get better as the season progresses.
 

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