Cardinals Do Not Have a Plan (or Clue)

AZCB34

ASFN Icon
Joined
Sep 23, 2002
Posts
14,858
Reaction score
7,097
Location
Mesa, AZ
Didnt people learn from the Colvin or Hartwell experiences? FAs in the past would merely just come out here to visit so they could use/abuse the Cardinals by getting them into a negotiating battle w/another team to drive-up the ante.. their cost....

I think that this current regime is also trying to deter that from happening.. their bringing in players who will be willing to accept whatever role the Cardinals will offer them......

KLL, the only problem with using this as a reason to not invite people is the secondhand store nature of it. I mean, there has to come a point where you have to jump in and the end product is the end product...either you are able to sign the guy or he uses you...but you gotta try.

Now, this FA class was pretty much junk but the Cards seem content to

A. Hope they get a starting OT in the draft (Joe Thomas = Tony Mandarich)

and

B. Stay the course with the team that had yet another losing team last year.

I am not up in arms but there is something to be said of replacing one mediocre starter with another simply for changes sake.

I think Mitch is a bit too far on the negative side with this but I think his underlying gripe does have some merit.
 

Chris_Sanders

Not Always The Best Moderator
Super Moderator
Moderator
Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2002
Posts
40,366
Reaction score
32,018
Location
Scottsdale, Az
KLL, the only problem with using this as a reason to not invite people is the secondhand store nature of it. I mean, there has to come a point where you have to jump in and the end product is the end product...either you are able to sign the guy or he uses you...but you gotta try.

Now, this FA class was pretty much junk but the Cards seem content to

A. Hope they get a starting OT in the draft (Joe Thomas = Tony Mandarich)

and

B. Stay the course with the team that had yet another losing team last year.

I am not up in arms but there is something to be said of replacing one mediocre starter with another simply for changes sake.

I think Mitch is a bit too far on the negative side with this but I think his underlying gripe does have some merit.

Well said.
 

AZCB34

ASFN Icon
Joined
Sep 23, 2002
Posts
14,858
Reaction score
7,097
Location
Mesa, AZ
That was then. You don't think the complete change in coaching staffs (again) doesn't make free agents nervous?

Nope. This is the way things are now. Players generally don't care about new coaching staffs, mostly they are looking to get paid. A few hunt down contenders but mostly it is about the money.

I think AJ brought up an interesting point earlier when he discussed the Cards falling back to the same style as before Denny but during the last three years it seemed as though the Cards just about got who they wanted. I think this is a part of the story that is most alarming.
 

KingLouieLouie

Going Old School!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Posts
5,532
Reaction score
46
Location
Phoenix, AZ
I disagree. Strongly.

We did a pretty damn good job getting the guys we wanted the last three years. Last year people were raving about how the Cards had changed and they had aggressively landed all of their top targets in the first three days of free agency. For 95% of free agents, financial security is by far the overriding factor. Then, feeling like they are really wanted. For about half of the visits, we haven't even made an offer yet (Leach, Kaesvaharn) or made it after they left (Hood, Kelly). All that does is tell those guys we aren't THAT sure we want them. That's not how we did business the last three years, that's the old way Graves did business.

True, the Cardinals might have been successful in immediately securing their FAs over the past 3 years, however, most havent fully performed up to money that the team invested in them.......

I know the jury is still out if the Edge will live-up to the level of play that we were all accustomed to witnessing in Indy.... but Macklin, obviously Ross are/were essentially FA bust...... Milford Brown did seem to make some progress toward the end, but there seems to be plenty of flaws in his game.... Femi was an excellent signing..... I'm just trying to go by memory of Denny Green's FA signings..... Berry has been injured for the most part... Okeafor did make some strides throughout the season.....

Again..... it's too premature to judge where the Cardinals stand at this point, however, I must admit.. if they dont sign anyone else by next wk.. then I might be more inclined to be somewhat critical.. but again.. patience is the essence here.. true.. I know.... 5-11..6-10.. etc has caused many to lose their patience/tolerance/threshold..whatever..... but I have more renewed hope with Whiz and Co... we shall see...
 

Mainstreet

Cruisin' Mainstreet
Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 19, 2003
Posts
119,253
Reaction score
59,866
I liken the Cardinals situation to the NBA Atlanta Hawks. No FA's want to go there (Joe Johnson being a notable exception) because of mismanagement in their FO and the tradition of losing. However, nobody wanted to go to Toronto either until Bryan Colangelo straightened out their organization. Now Toronto has turned their franchise around. It's amazing what a good GM can do.
 

CardinalChris

Big Man Himself
Joined
Jul 11, 2002
Posts
3,929
Reaction score
0
Location
Fresno, CA
I liken the Cardinals situation to the NBA Atlanta Hawks. No FA's want to go there (Joe Johnson being a notable exception) because of mismanagement in their FO and the tradition of losing. However, nobody wanted to go to Toronto either until Bryan Colangelo straightened out their organization. Now Toronto has turned their franchise around. It's amazing what a good GM can do.

Or winning
 

Evil Ash

Henchman Supreme
Joined
Jun 26, 2003
Posts
9,757
Reaction score
1,986
Location
On a flying cocoon
Nope. This is the way things are now. Players generally don't care about new coaching staffs, mostly they are looking to get paid. A few hunt down contenders but mostly it is about the money.

The main factors in free agency are 1) Money (of course), 2) Playing time, 3) Comfort (in the system and the area) and 4) a chance to play for a winning team.

It may not be factor 1 that is hurting us right now. It may be the 2nd factor which is hurting us in recruiting FAs because Whis doesn't want to give starting jobs to them, he wants them to earn it.
 

lobo

ASFN Lifer
Joined
Feb 16, 2006
Posts
3,310
Reaction score
230
Location
Inverness, Il
Spend more time at work or with your kids, but please stop the whining.

Thanks...You saved me the trouble. This was the last post I will read on this subject as I hear enough windbags at work and various other places. I don't have to read the rants on my time.
 

ActingWild

Hall of Famer
Joined
Aug 10, 2002
Posts
1,474
Reaction score
66
Again, if we get Joe Thomas then all of this is completely moot. I think that we're going overboard with the chicken little mentality here.

You seriously would be okay with our off season plan being: "Let's cross our fingers and hope Joe Thomas slides to us?"

When thinking about what our FO is doing, the phrase "The best plan for failure is to have no plan at all" comes to mind.
 

OldDirtMcGirt

Registered User
Joined
Dec 14, 2006
Posts
1,255
Reaction score
0
You seriously would be okay with our off season plan being: "Let's cross our fingers and hope Joe Thomas slides to us?"

When thinking about what our FO is doing, the phrase "The best plan for failure is to have no plan at all" comes to mind.

No, but I'd be seriously okay with our offseason plan if we already had a plan to trade up for Joe Thomas. Signing Mike Gandy would be a step in the right direction though.
 

KingLouieLouie

Going Old School!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Posts
5,532
Reaction score
46
Location
Phoenix, AZ
First.... here's a major question..... Is anyone able to furnish a list of the agents (management team) representing every FA available? I think that honestly can dictate a lot.....

Perhaps Rod Graves might have had poor dealings w/a certain agent and didnt want to waste his time contacting them.. This takes me back what I was aiming at when I alluded to both Colvin and Hartwell.... I bet both (I know this is pure speculation, but that's the case with much of these debates/discussions) really had no intent in signing here in AZ, but knew they could use at the best of their advantage the Cardinals to drive-up their price... essentially...a negotiating tool..... Do you think that Graves and the rest of the brass would want any future dealings w/them after they wasted all the time/money/effort to suade the player... Yes.. money since obviously the Cards (such as any organization does) is spend quite a bit of cash to purchase the FAs plane tickets, cover their lodging/food/entertainment expenses..etc.... Why waste all that into a player who probably has no desire whatsoever in playing here? Also, why invite a player out here who could probably care less about the Cardinals to get season ticket holders and other fan's hopes up.. not only then to be immediately dashed... or get into that usual pattern to hold-out to see if the player does finally decide to sign here when you're declining other opportunities in the process...... It could be the agent has a vandetta against the Cardinals.. we absolutely have no idea......


Also, it might not that the player objects to play for the Cardinals... it could be that they dislike AZ.. in most cases have a faulty impression.... For example... I'm trying to get some of my friends to move out here, but some get scared off by the 120 degree temp reading.. not realizing that dry heat is better than the severe humidity they endure.. or some still picture AZ like the old west.. filled with tumbleweed... having absolulely nothing to do.. etc.... that perhaps might be the overall impression of the FAs...

Im certain that players deal w/their agents for 365 days a year.. when FA approaches... I bet there are those who give a list to their respective agents of teams or cities they have no desire to play for.... it could be for varying reasons....again.. the climate, location.. probably they grew-up in the East and rather remain in close proximity.... so.. when the Cardinals contact that player's agent... they immediately decline the Cardinals invite based on that... perhaps they had a poor experience out in AZ..or their family doesnt want to pack and move out far.. some are hesistant to get involved in quite a culture shock that t can be.... True.. these are hypotheticals...but.. they all might factor in to some degree/extent... Not like a publication (whatever form of media it is) would report.. .the Cardinals contact this players agent, but he declined to have the player fly out there.... I dont think Graves would want to admit.. some times the agent might want their exchange to remain classified... again.. we dont know....

True, the talent at most of the positions are better now than they were when Green inherited the team in '04, but in this instance Im not giving him any credit.... but......there's still a stigma..about how the Cardinals keep on changing coordinators every year....and then eventually coaches every 3.... They wont attract more serious FAs until they prove some form of stability..continuity......identity..direction... I think Whiz and his staff will provide that.... they all come from solid coaching pedigrees.. they're proven winners... Green honestly turned-out to be overrated.. Again.. I still contend that his Vikings coached teams should have won at least 2 Super Bowls with that talent, but we obviously know he never advanced past the
conference finals.... He was too laxed out here.. he felt he had nothing to prove.. that he ended-up taking the money and run anyways...

Whiz on the other hand wants to prove himself capable... his involvement should help the team better.. the fact that he will actually attend meetings.. be more committed... wont have such the ego Denny had... that he will actually listen to feedback from his coordinators.. his players to do what they believe its best suited for them..... that right there is a start... you gradually build on that...

Again... I know the frustrations... 5-11, 6-10..... etc... but I still contend that the team would have won.. I know.. would have..could have ..should have, but it does apply here.... that Denny's inept decisions/miscalculations played a major role in several of the defeats... they werent being massacred.. again most were decided in waining seconds... when let's say a botched 2-point conversion....or whatever key moment came back to haunt them......

It's still too early to jump into any conclusions, but as to what I typed in an earlier thread... I too will become skeptical if they dont sign another player by next week.... I think Hood and KK can do wonders... lets get them signed.. then at least we will rejoice in something....
 

joeshmo

Kangol Hat Aficionado
Joined
Feb 23, 2004
Posts
17,247
Reaction score
1
Can Graves change where the Cardinals are geographically located? I mean.... that some times does factor into a players decision whether or not they want to sign somewhere....... Its not a crutch..... it factors in as the truth.. the are things beyond the FO control that does prevent a player from coming-out for a visit.......

You or no one else on here knows everything that goes on behind-the-scenes... then if you do.. you must be one of the Bidwills or Rod Graves himself.. or anyone else who works in some higher capacity in the FO... but obviously.. I highly doubt you do....

Now we cant get players because of geography? That excuse cant get any more lame, especially when most athletes of every sport make Arizona their retirement community and offseason training facility.

Once again its called being a salesmen, something every successful GM should be able to do.

If they have big plans but cant go through with it because of geography, then this FO has more problems then I orignally thought.
 

WildBB

Yogi n da Bear
Joined
Mar 20, 2004
Posts
14,295
Reaction score
1,239
Location
The Sonoran Jungle - West
The main factors in free agency are 1) Money (of course), 2) Playing time, 3) Comfort (in the system and the area) and 4) a chance to play for a winning team.

It may not be factor 1 that is hurting us right now. It may be the 2nd factor which is hurting us in recruiting FAs because Whis doesn't want to give starting jobs to them, he wants them to earn it.

Very good perception of the situation. It's a two way street here. They may have to earn some incentives with no guarantees of starting. I'm not willing to pay a bunch of limited talented (pressed to start) depth guys , starters salaries. Some of the other FA's are past their primes allready. There's a reason teams let them go, just like we did Big.
 

joeshmo

Kangol Hat Aficionado
Joined
Feb 23, 2004
Posts
17,247
Reaction score
1
How many of those 15 teams have the cap room we have?

Have any of them brought in 6 guys to visit?

Do any of them have basically no important free agents of their own to re-sign after letting their top one walk?



Honestly, I don't know the answers to those questions. But, I'm highly confident that not one of those 15 teams can answer "Yes" to all those questions.

You forgot one. How many have been drafting in the top 10 over the last decade or even this year?
 

KingLouieLouie

Going Old School!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Posts
5,532
Reaction score
46
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Now we cant get players because of geography? That excuse cant get any more lame, especially when most athletes of every sport make Arizona their retirement community and offseason training facility.

Once again its called being a salesmen, something every successful GM should be able to do.

If they have big plans but cant go through with it because of geography, then this FO has more problems then I orignally thought.

Please read my last post.. it elaborates on other reasons.....

Yes.... a retirement community, but again...some of these players have families who want to remain in their comfort zone...rather not venture out of their region of the country because they're very accustomed to their surroundings... that's possibly the case..... It's not lame whatsoever.. it's very plausible indeed....

I could give a baseball scenario..... The Dbacks acquired a pitcher named Jaiver Vazquez a couple of years ago even knowing at the time he preferred to be out east closer to his family in Puerto Rico..... He did last one entire season here, then ultimately demanded a trade......

Again... it's not just the climate why a player might not want to move out to AZ.... there's the other variables I referred to in my aforementioned post... Plus.. most of these guys are young.. have younger families... obviously.. not close to retirement age... probably dont want to just play golf.. some again a partial to where they live now.. most might even prefer the beach... again..... we dont know the full story.. even if it does appear trivial.....
 

joeshmo

Kangol Hat Aficionado
Joined
Feb 23, 2004
Posts
17,247
Reaction score
1
That was then. You don't think the complete change in coaching staffs (again) doesn't make free agents nervous?

Isnt this coaching staff supposedly being luaded as a great staff around league circles. A coaching staff with a lot of cred in the NFL. A coaching staff we can hitch our wagons to.
 

KingLouieLouie

Going Old School!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Posts
5,532
Reaction score
46
Location
Phoenix, AZ
Isnt this coaching staff supposedly being luaded as a great staff around league circles. A coaching staff with a lot of cred in the NFL. A coaching staff we can hitch our wagons to.

Yes.. but obviously all in fractions... they of course havent worked together as a unit to see how any power/authority will be delegated among them..exactly what specific roles they will have here.... Will they be all "yes-man" (like most were under Green)..or will they be able to provide their own input... it will take at least one year for all of that to play out....
 

joeshmo

Kangol Hat Aficionado
Joined
Feb 23, 2004
Posts
17,247
Reaction score
1
First.... here's a major question..... Is anyone able to furnish a list of the agents (management team) representing every FA available? I think that honestly can dictate a lot.....

Perhaps Rod Graves might have had poor dealings w/a certain agent and didnt want to waste his time contacting them..

If that is what is holding us back then we are setting ourselves up for failure everytime. In business you have to deal with people you dont like maybe even hate all the time, but thats the price of doing business isnt it. If you stop talking to your suppliers(agents) or limit the amount of suppliers you are majorly handicapping yourself and will get inferior products or the same products at a higher price compared to your competitors. Especially in such a small world the NFL Biz is you cant burn your bridges and if you do you have to find a way to repair them even if it isnt your fault.

I know this is a really crappy free agent class. I never even expected to sign any of the big name free agents. I have warning people about this free agent class and the upcoming huge contracts since forever now. So I am not surprised or mad that we havent signed a big name free agent. I do how ever not like losing out on the only TE prospect we have had for a visit and for time being have no Plan B for the TE spot that seems to be a priority for the staff and only signing 1 Center. There may not be any stars to bring in today or tommorow(we have no visits scheduled for the near future) but there are plenty of depth guys, and not all of them arent taking our calls. The Cards cant tell me there isnt at least one nice priced depth free agent they can bring in today or tommorow. They cant stop with just Hood and KK.
 
Last edited:

KingLouieLouie

Going Old School!
Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2003
Posts
5,532
Reaction score
46
Location
Phoenix, AZ
If that is what is holding us back then we are setting ourselves up for failure everytime. In business you have to deal with people you dont like maybe even hate all the time, but thats the price of doing business isnt it. If you stop talking to your suppliers(agents) or limit the amount of suppliers you are majorly handicapping yourself and will get inferior products or the same products at a higher price compared to your competitors. Especially in such a small world the NFL Biz is you cant burn your bridges and if you do you have to find a way to repair them even if it isnt your fault.

This is true, however, the agent might be unwilling to make amends.... it's always that it takes two mutual sides that are willing to get everything done.....

Yes, "NFL Biz" is such a small world, however, a lot more is stake...especially in terms of the lucractive monies invested in these players......

Unfortunately, there's not a surplus of talent available that would have filled most/all the Cards needs.... there's of course that shortage.. high demand...which of course is mainly responsible in driving-up the cost of these players WAY beyond their worth..... Also, a franchise has to be more fiscally responsible.... I'm curious.... it's too premature.. I know people say.. why always wait until next year... but what is the early status of '08's FA class? I bet there will be countless better players available at the Cards needs positions than what is now.. again.. why settle by signing someone for the sake of signing them when someone at the same cost will be available, but yet of better quality.. just think about that...
 

joeshmo

Kangol Hat Aficionado
Joined
Feb 23, 2004
Posts
17,247
Reaction score
1
I'm curious.... it's too premature.. I know people say.. why always wait until next year... but what is the early status of '08's FA class? I bet there will be countless better players available at the Cards needs positions than what is now.. again.. why settle by signing someone for the sake of signing them when someone at the same cost will be available, but yet of better quality.. just think about that...

Free agency isnt going to be any good for another 2-3 years. The cap went up to high to fast. Over 25% in just 2 years and expected to go up more then 6% for another 3 years in a row. Teams are going to be able to franchise and re-sign their own players for some time until contacts get to the same level as the cap. Even with the contracts being given out so far those contracts still arent anywhere close to limiting teams franchising and re-signing ability yet.

Becuase this free agency period is so bad a lot of teams will use their remaining cap space that a lot of teams will have to extend the players they have as well, more so then ever before. Making future free agents classes even worse.

I already called it before this free agency even started and its already happeneing in a big way. I stated that trading in the NFL will grow big time because that will be the only way some teams will be able to upgrade their teams and will be able to eat the prorated cap hit it will take in trading away a player now because of the wealth of cap space. The Cards just might have to become better at making trades if they want to keep up with the Jones.

I dont expect much out of free agency for another 2-3 years until players salaries and cap space start to equal out again. It is going to be hard fought battle to get the players you want.
 

AntSports Steve

Cardinals Future GM
Joined
May 16, 2002
Posts
1,119
Reaction score
0
Location
Scottsdale, Arizona
KLL, it sounds to me you are just making excuses for the front office. Many of us knew this situation would happen, but it appears the Cards front office has stuck their heads in the sand and have no clue.

Sitting around for a year or two and giving our new coaching staff a chance isn't a good plan. The Cards current stars are good now. They won't wait around for a few years to give the coaches a chance to build from the bottom up.

The Cards need to try to win now. They have cap space, they have good players, they are just missing a few positions. If they don't fix the problem now, those stars will start asking for trades or not resigning when their contract is up.

The Cards got the QB, WRs and RB now. They are in their prime. It won't get any better than this. Why wait a few years? It makes no sense.
 

RugbyMuffin

ASFN IDOL
Joined
Apr 30, 2003
Posts
30,485
Reaction score
4,877
Finally!! I'm so glad we have people like Mitch and Rugbymuffin on this board who are not only recognized NFL talent evaluators but know what goes on behind the scenes in the Cardinals front office meetings. Seriously guys, where would we be without your expert analysis and insider information?

The same place you are now. A bitter man who instead of adding to conversations. Puts words in other peoples mouths, insults them, and acts like an @ss 50% of the time. (Unfortunately the other 50% he adds a lot to the board so I don't ignore him)

If you got nothing to add or don't like what is being said then shut your yap for once.

I never said I was a expertise talent evaluator. Actually most of what I have posted are questions looking for insight.

Once again I am enjoying talking about what the Cardinals are doing this offseason. I am not trying to say I know 100% what is going on, and what exactly to do.

I know what I would want to do personally. But that is my opinion, and that is it.
 
Last edited:

RugbyMuffin

ASFN IDOL
Joined
Apr 30, 2003
Posts
30,485
Reaction score
4,877
Their is a huge difference between being an "Upgrade" and "Great".

WHERE IN THE HECK DID I SAY ANY LINEMAN WAS F'N GREAT !?!?!?

This is the 3rd post I see that is quoting that I called players great.

If you actually read some of the posts and didn't make things up based on the usual bile that is spewing out some people's thoughts on what THEY THINK I said. You would see I have not called anyone great.

Bottom line. I think the offensive linemen we have here in AZ are really poor players.

I think bringing in some new faces that are an upgrade. Thus upgrading from poor to mediocre at best. BUT STILL it is an upgrade.

If we give our offense just a little more time, and room I think it will be enough, for now, to produce some offense this year.
 
Last edited:

RugbyMuffin

ASFN IDOL
Joined
Apr 30, 2003
Posts
30,485
Reaction score
4,877
Do you we actually know that Rod Graves & Co. did contact the agents/reps of these players, however, they rejected coming-out here for varying reasons....

Of course he doesn't know what is going on in the front office.

This is getting stupid.

There are a few people on this board that need to either SHUT UP or just stop comming here.

I come here to talk Cardinals football. I am not an expert but when I want to talk about football I come here.

Everything here is assumed. Or an opinion. But still some people just like to toss some ideas around and get a some ideas back.

Unfortunately, there are some people who act like a five year girl. Stick there fingers in there ears and scream out loud, " You're a stupid duty head" Over and over just to be jerks and tout how people don't know anything.

Yet, these piles of decaying flesh and mindless puss can never seem to add anything to the conversation except for smart @ss remarks, insults, and mindless dribble.
 

RugbyMuffin

ASFN IDOL
Joined
Apr 30, 2003
Posts
30,485
Reaction score
4,877
Three, four days into free agency... and the same, blah, blah, blah BS, from the usual suspects... Every year, since the advent of the internet... same cut and paste arguments... POSITIVELY LAUGHABLE!!! :bang:

Two or three pages into a thread and the same mindless dribble and insults adding nothing to the conversations from the usual suspects.

Every year since I can remember comming to the board.

The same cut and paste arguements.

POSITIVELY ANNOYING !

:bang:
 
Top