Cardinals Free Agent Targets

[kerouac9]

Since you love stats, let's look at Mr. Jones' so-called magic December in Tampa. He only rushed for 100 yards or more in ONE game - against a dreadful Houston team. The other three games he rushed for 89, 73 and 68 yards. Whoopie. Funny that you failed to mention the amazing 11 yards in 7 carries performance on Nov 30 against a 3-win Jacksonville team.

That wasn't a dreadful Houston team. It was the best team that they've had yet. They went something like 7-9 and it looked like David Carr was starting to put it together. Jones had 89 yards on 20 carries the week before on the road against New Orleans (4.5 YPC), and had great averages the following two weeks to end the season.

The guy only had 30 total carries in those two weeks. What do you want him to do, foribly take the ball out of the quarterback's hand after the snap? He can only run the plays that are called.

The proof is in the pudding. Following that December, the Chicago Bears signed Jones to a four-year, $10 million contract. I understand that Cardinal fans can't be rational about how they backed the wrong horse in choosing Shipp over Jones, but that's no excuse for blatantly re-writing history that didn't happen.

Thomas Jones averaged 9.28 carries per game in his three years as an Arizona Cardinal. Since he left the Arizona Cardinals, he's averaged 16.18 carries per game, including his stint in Tampa. As a Chicago Bear, he's averaged over 18 carries per game.

I said it when he left and I'll continue to say it: Thomas Jones was never given a chance to succeed in Arizona, and that's why he left. You can't give a back the ball 9 times a game and then wonder why he can't get into a rhythm. In his last season in Arizona, Jones had 5 games when he was given 15 carries or more. In those games, he averaged 4.44 yards per carry and scored two TDs.

It wasn't that Thomas Jones was a bad player for the Arizona Cardinals, it's that Dave McGinnis and his coaches had no idea how to use him, and the fans turned on him mercilessly.

 

[Pariah]

I understand that Cardinal fans can't be rational about how they backed the wrong horse in choosing Shipp over Jones, but that's no excuse for blatantly re-writing history that didn't happen.

Hold on there, K9. I'm on board with Jones being a premier back now, but he wasn't doing anything while in AZ, and it didn't look like he ever would. Accusations of going down at the slightest contact and dancing behind the line are legitimate. Shipp, on the other hand, at least hit the hole hard and wasn't easy to bring down.

The best thing to happen to his career was getting out of AZ--that doesn't mean running him out of AZ was the wrong thing to do for the Cardinals. You're re-writing history, too.

 

[Cardinals.Ken]

It wasn't that Thomas Jones was a bad player for the Arizona Cardinals, it's that Dave McGinnis and his coaches had no idea how to use him, and the fans turned on him mercilessly.

Don't you mean UNmercilessly?

 

[Pariah]

Don't you mean UNmerciessly?

NONunmercilessly?

 

[Cardinals.Ken]

NONunmercilessly?

YOU suck!

or is it

You SUCK!

 

[kerouac9]

In 2001, Thomas Jones had 4 games where he was allowed to carry the ball 10 times or more. In those games? 3.6 YPC and two TDs, including one game when Mac apparently thought the best strategy was to run the back into the line over and over, as TJ rushed 14 times for 37 yards in a game that he didn't even start.

In 2000, TJ started the first four games, got more than 10 carries in 2 of them, and then was promptly benched. Go back and take a look at how long the Dolphins stuck with Ronnie Brown when he struggled as a rookie. How quickly did the fans turn on that guy?

 

[kerouac9]

Don't you mean UNmercilessly?

No, I think you think that I mean "unmercifully", which is the opposite of "mercilessly."

 

[Pariah]

YOU suck!

or is it

You SUCK!

The latter in the US, the former when we're in Germany.

 

[Cardinals.Ken]

No, I think you think that I mean "unmercifully", which is the opposite of "mercilessly."

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"I did not know that."

 

[Goodyear Card]

It wasn't that Thomas Jones was a bad player for the Arizona Cardinals, it's that Dave McGinnis and his coaches had no idea how to use him, and the fans turned on him mercilessly.

Jones had the same problem every Cardinals Rd has. The OL sucks. It is really hard to be a successful RB when you are being tackled in the backfield.

 

[Mulli]

Jones had the same problem every Cardinals Rd has. The OL sucks. It is really hard to be a successful RB when you are being tackled in the backfield.

YEP.

 

[vinnymac]

Of course you can't cite specifics because there was no game this season where the Cardinals lost because Leonard Davis was on the field.

Where does it say he will get a 4-5 yr contract? If he is franchised it only has to be for a 1 year contract. Then if the Cardinals find someone who they are confident enough to replace him he can walk in '08.

Do I think he is worth $11 million for 1 year? Absolutely, especially when you consider we have nobody available to replace him. The offense finally was playing well the last half of the season when the OLine was set and playing consistently, now you (and others) want to jack that up and start all over at square 1 again next season. It makes no sense.

i can agrue this back and forth all day long. another thing that i think is overrated is the play of the offensive line playing bettter. the cardinals offensive line always plays better toward the end of the season. they were all playing for their jobs. it is amazing how much players play better when they know there is going to be a new coach in town. they need some game film to show that they are doing better.

you are crazy if you think he is worth 11 million dollars. since the cardinals have a lefty as a qb, than the protect the blind side rules implies to the right tackle. left defensive ends are getting a lot better in this league. it is possible that to get two good left tackles who can do just as good as job as davis can with 11 million dollars. davis plays isn't worth 11 million dollars. another thing if davis is a great player than he would have made that offensive line better. he didn't. he not a great player and he shouldn't get paid like a great player. if davis would have made the pro-bowl a couple times then i would be on board with the rest of you.

to the response to david boston, jake plummer, and thomas jones.

where is david boston at right now. what has he done to justify him staying.
jake plummer has been given every chance in the world to be great. he has done nothing to be considered great. he was asked in denver not to lose the game and that is what he did. that is why the broncos traded up to get jay cutler in the draft. now rumors are plummer is going to be sent packing.

thomas jones. he didn't do anything here. micheal pittman beat him out of a job, marcell shipp an undrafted free agent beat him out of a job, and he was sent packing to join micheal pittman in tampa. show flashes of becoming the back the cardinals would hope he would be in tampa and now he is finally showing some worth in chicago. good for him.

 

[joeshmo]

i can agrue this back and forth all day long. another thing that i think is overrated is the play of the offensive line playing bettter. the cardinals offensive line always plays better toward the end of the season. they were all playing for their jobs. it is amazing how much players play better when they know there is going to be a new coach in town. they need some game film to show that they are doing better.

Wells - Switched to RT.
Lutui - Given Starting Job
Leckey - Given Starting Job
Brown Switched to LG

Of course it had nothing to do with 4 new players starting or put into new starting spots.

it is possible that to get two good left tackles who can do just as good as job as davis can with 11 million dollars.

First, no you cant, the good gaurds are no a days starting to make 5+ Mill. Good LT's are making 7 if not more then that.

Second, those 2 LT's we can get to replace him are? You are speaking as if its pretty easy to get a starting LT.

Curtesy of K9 -

"Vinny, read Michael Lewis's The Blind Side. Left Tackle is one of the hardest positions in the NFL to fill. According to the players and coaches in the NFL, Leonard Davis is one of the top 6 tackles in the NFC. Those guys are hard to come by. You don't let them go without a solid plan in place to replace them."

 

[vinnymac]

free agentcy doesn't start until march and the draft at the end of april. i will know more after the superbowl next week. that gives me a whole month to come up with a plan. someone said that tre thomas of the eagles should become a free agent.

courtesy of K9,

so tell me when davis is considered in the top 6 in the nfl and not in the nfc. this proves my point a little more that he is good and not great. great players deserve to be franchised in order to get a long term deal done. he now where near the 11 million or more dollars everyone is wanting. he is near the two players i would use the 11 million dollars on.

 

[vinnymac]

another thing no one is agrueing my point on the left side is not the blind side for the cardinals. it is the right side. so why do you need to overpay an underachieving left tackle to protect the non blind side of the qb. no one argueing the point that i made that davis is good and not great. or the fact that davis has underachieve so far in his career. that warrants him to a big fat contract. just because everyone thinks there is no one better out there, doesn't meant that their isn't. my point is davis is going to be wanting to make more than 10 million a year. if he wants that, then imo he needs to find another team. the way the cardinals were extending contracts during the season and not leonard davis, tells me that the cardinals are going in a different direction. people on this board were calling for leonard davis's head during the season. now it is what will we do for a left tackle. what a buch of flip flopers.

 

[joeshmo]

free agentcy doesn't start until march and the draft at the end of april. i will know more after the superbowl next week. that gives me a whole month to come up with a plan. someone said that tre thomas of the eagles should become a free agent.

What is going to change after the super bowl?

Tra Thomas isnt about to become a FA, that was a pipe dream for a trade idea, or a dream that Eagle would cut him. Not going to happen.

And what is going to change from now till the start of FA. Is someone going to be cut to make more cap room, nope, no one needs cap room. Is someone going to cut an over the hill has been, maybe. That still leaves Davis on top of the OT FA market, but hey lets get rid of the as you said it, "good but not great" OT and go with an unknown.

Or we can hope that the one and only elite OT prospect falls to us in the draft. And that oT ranking wont change when draft time rolls around. Levi Brown wont all of a sudden be an elite prospect. And it will take an elite prospect to take Davis spot without taking 2 steps back.

It will be hard enough to spend to the cap minimum with the current surplus cap we have and the bad FA market, but hey lets save 11 Mill dollars instead of having a "good but not great" OT, the hardest position to find in the NFL next to QB. Lets get rid of a good LT because we can spend half of that on a player who is only average. Now thats a plan.

 

[joeshmo]

just because everyone thinks there is no one better out there, doesn't meant that their isn't.

Yet you refuse to even try to prove the last part of the statement. But hey maybe in a month a good one will fall into your lap. Becuase aparently it takes a month to look up a FA list.

my point is davis is going to be wanting to make more than 10 million a year. if he wants that, then imo he needs to find another team.

Where has he ever said he wants 10 Mill? He will get 7-8 Mill like every other "good but not great" OT.

the way the cardinals were extending contracts during the season and not leonard davis, tells me that the cardinals are going in a different direction.

Do you really think the Cards were going to shell out another double digit bonus after the cash they shelled out for Matt and Edge. Proves nothing one way or another.

people on this board were calling for leonard davis's head during the season. now it is what will we do for a left tackle. what a buch of flip flopers.

1. He was voted as a top 6 OT for a second season in a row.
2. Everyone finally got an idea what the FA market would look like in terms of talent and Davis would be a top of that board.
3. Sam Baker and John Long both didnt declare.
4. The Line played great the last half of the season.
5. People finally realized just how much cap space we would have and that everyone else in the league would have on average 20 Mill also.

It isnt flip flopping, its looking at all the cards on the table and making a decision.

 

[joeshmo]

It is as simple as this:

You dont cut of your nose to spite your face. You dont loss your good LT until you have someone to take his place. You dont take 2 steps back when you are trying to build something.

1. Franchise Davis.

2. See if you can sign - Jon Stinchcomb, Tony Pashos, maybe even Marc Colombo who did have a good season (thats assuming anyone one of those will even make the FA market and not be re-signed). Then rescind the tag or trade Davis.

3. See if Joe Thomas falls to you at #5 (and this is assuming the coaching staff even likes him), then rescind the tag or trade Davis.

In ever scenerio you have yourself a good LT playing on this team next year.

There is no scenerio in which you let a good OT go without someone to take his place and taking 2 steps back. I dont care less if he isnt worth 11 Mill in one season, we have the cap space, so much so it wont hinder our FA process one bit, and it isnt my money.

 

[Zeno]

Why bother Joe, you can't educate those who don't want to be educated. I've given up on him.

 

[Goodyear Card]

1. He was voted as a top 6 OT for a second season in a row.
2. Everyone finally got an idea what the FA market would look like in terms of talent and Davis would be a top of that board.
3. Sam Baker and John Long both didn't declare.
4. The Line played great the last half of the season.
5. People finally realized just how much cap space we would have and that everyone else in the league would have on average 20 Mill also.
.

Joe,

the line didn't play great in the second half. They only played better then the first half. They are average at best. We have other needs than LT, even on the OL. You're right about the limited number of available tackles in free agency but that doesn't mean we have to spend all of our money on LD. I looked up the rushing stats for the last five weeks of the season. They may seem great for the Cardinals but most teams don't get too excited about the team rushing for a hundred yards in a game. Just for comparison we average 114 yards per game for the last five games. Sixteen teams averaged greater than 114 yards rushing for the whole season. You couldn't get more average than that.


Cards
week total yards average
17 98 4.5
16 123 3.0
15 100 5.0
14 113 3.4
13 137 3.7

 

[BACH]

Dont feel like looking up all of them but I know for a fact that Alex Barron had double digit false starts (13) as did other OL not named Davis. Davis had 9. Heck there are even more OL not named Davis that had more total Penalties (including holding) then Davis.

I dont mind people saying he has a lot of false starts but to overexagerate by saying, "he leads the league in false starts", without looking up the facts first to try and make your point I will call out. I dont deny that I think you actually believed that he did lead the lague in false starts as do a lot of other poeple. Just goes to show that what actually happens and what is perceived is 2 different things.

I believe Barron and Diehl from the Giants led the league.

 

[Zeno]

Joe,

the line didn't play great in the second half. They only played better then the first half. They are average at best. We have other needs than LT, even on the OL. You're right about the limited number of available tackles in free agency but that doesn't mean we have to spend all of our money on LD. I looked up the rushing stats for the last five weeks of the season. They may seem great for the Cardinals but most teams don't get too excited about the team rushing for a hundred yards in a game. Just for comparison we average 114 yards per game for the last five games. Sixteen teams averaged greater than 114 yards rushing for the whole season. You couldn't get more average than that.


Cards
week total yards average
17 98 4.5
16 123 3.0
15 100 5.0
14 113 3.4
13 137 3.7

How many sacks per pass attempt during that time compared to before? How many of those games were we trailing and ran less and passed more?

Rushing totals aren't the end all of measuring the OL.

 

[Duckjake]

How many sacks per pass attempt during that time compared to before? How many of those games were we trailing and ran less and passed more?

Rushing totals aren't the end all of measuring the OL.

I know they gave up 6 sacks in those 5 games. 1,2,2,1 and 0.

 

[slanidrac16]

Bottom line is you just don't let Davis walk away and get nothing in return. What is the harm of tagging him? It gives us time to negotiate a sensible contract with him and weigh all of our alternatives.
If we set Davis free he will get a huge amount of money somewhere else and just might be the first free agent signed on March 1st.

You don't strengthen your team by throwing "good" pieces away for nothing.

One more point. I think many players performances has been hindered or hurt by the last coaching regime. Another thing is losing year in and year out effects players performances too. It's human nature. It's not that a player lets up and plays half as hard or isn't trying, but even a slight let down or lack of focus will lead to mistakes.

Many of you have played sports. Lets take golf. If your heading to the 16th hole with a shot at your personal best round of your life you can bet your are focused. However, the very next day your at the same golf coarse heading into the same hole looking at the worst round of your life, well, lets just say your intensity will be somewhat less as you finish the round.
I know many will respond with "They're professionals and a professional athlete plays hard on every play". True to a point. What I'm saying is a players intensity dosen't have to drop 50% to lose the edge. It could drop 5% on 1 or 2 plays and that may be difference of a missed block or a false start.

And if you are a Cardinal player, many fans will think thats enough to get rid of you.

 

[joeshmo]

Joe,

the line didn't play great in the second half. They only played better then the first half. They are average at best. We have other needs than LT, even on the OL. You're right about the limited number of available tackles in free agency but that doesn't mean we have to spend all of our money on LD. I looked up the rushing stats for the last five weeks of the season. They may seem great for the Cardinals but most teams don't get too excited about the team rushing for a hundred yards in a game. Just for comparison we average 114 yards per game for the last five games. Sixteen teams averaged greater than 114 yards rushing for the whole season. You couldn't get more average than that.


Cards
week total yards average
17 98 4.5
16 123 3.0
15 100 5.0
14 113 3.4
13 137 3.7

Last half of the season the rushed for 4.2 yards a carry. That would tie them for 11th in the league. So they went from worst in the league run blocking to Average when the 4 changes were made to the OL. And they went from average pass blocking unit to one of the best in the league after the 4 changes were made. So maybe "Great" was to big a word but they without question played really good the last half of the season. But we can debate semantics all day.