Cardinals Make Roster Moves (08-29-05)

[Scott MS]

Really? coz I didnt see anything out of King that would make me feel like it is a great loss....

Didn't have King last season and now we don't have him this season. Can't get too worried about not having something you didn't have before!!

I agree with you. Not a big loss because we don't know what kind of player King could be.

Now Redmond looked good. That's the first significant loss for the entire season. Other injuries hurting us now are Hayes and Edwards -- but neither gone for the entire season.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Really? coz I didnt see anything out of King that would make me feel like it is a great loss....

Well I guess the fact that Clancy was working on installing 5 man fronts just so he could get King and Dockett on the field at the same time must mean nothing. That Clancy guy must not be a very good judge of talent.

 

[JeffGollin]

Other injuries hurting us now are Hayes and Edwards -- but neither gone for the entire season
Edwards is practicing with the squad again and should see action vs. Denver.

The only reason I listed Hayes as "battling for a roster spot" is the outside chance that, like other "slightly injured" players (like Redmond and King), his prognosis might head south; causing the coaches to IR him in order to free up a roster spot for one of the other LB's. Obviously, if his rehab seems AOK and on schedule, Hayes figures to stay on the active roster.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

Well I guess the fact that Clancy was working on installing 5 man fronts just so he could get King and Dockett on the field at the same time must mean nothing. That Clancy guy must not be a very good judge of talent.

They ran 5 man fronts last year too and King was hurt. Bryant was on the roster last year too, does that make him "good"

Facts are facts and fact is King has done nothing to warrant this love fest everyone is giving him. He has done Nothing since landing here and yet everyone has been so googly-eyed over him. What has he done? How many sacks, TFL, etc has he had? Hell, how many games has even played.

Just another Mac holdover and bad draft pick!

 

[BigRedArk]

Tons of surprises on that list. I'm a little in shock.

I wouldn't answer my phone before training camp starts next season, Kenny. Most overrated player on this board not named "Marcel Shipp."

First I agree with you to a certain extent on King. He is assuredly fragile. He did however show some promise his rookie season. Don't have the stats on him for that year but I do recall that he was a playmaker for the games that he played in. I do recall that he was hurt for a few games that year but did return and was a effective playmaker. The thing that i suspect you have forgotten or never did know was that coming out of college the rap on him was that he was fragile but talented. So really to say that he is overrated is a stretch. We got production out of him his rookie year which is probably more than a lot of knowledgeable people probably expected.
Now on to Shipp. First he has only really been a full-time RB on our roster for only 2 seasons. That would be the 2002 and 03 seasons. 2001 he was mostly a ST'er.
In 2002 Finished the season with 1,247 total yards from scrimmage on 226 touches (188 rushes, 38 receptions) to finish with a 5.5-yard average, second in the NFC to Minnesota running back Michael Bennett. His rushing stats that year were 834 yds 188 carries 4.4 yrd avg lngest gain 56 6 TD's. Of note... on receiving end of 80-yard scoring play on screen pass @ StL (12/15), the team’s longest play from scrimmage since 1988. I don't know how many actual games he played in that yr. Maybe someone can help me out here.
In 2003 he put up 830 yds on 228 att's 3.6 avg 36 lnges gain 0 td's. He was the starting RB over the final 11 games while Emmit was on the mend for 6 games. He played ST the first 5 games as the #2 RB. Why he didn't score any TD's for these 11 games I don't know. Sully was the "official OC" but was he really calling the plays??? Who was actually calling the plays after he offered to resign as the OC that year. Could it be that he wasn't used properly or not at all when we were in the red-zone that year? I don't know. Do you K9? Honestly do you?
Looking at the previous 2 paragraphs and to continue to say that Shipp is overrated is ludicrous Kerouac. Now to be fair (something you are not btw) I will admit that Marcel has in the past "gone in a funk" for a couple of games after putting up a couple or three good games. Do I like that about him? No. Do I wish he was more durable? Yes. However to continue to denigrate his efforts as a good and solid RB and team player on this team is just WRONG!!! Will you admit that you have at least been unfair to say that he is overrated?
One other thing please respond directly to this post as I have noticed a proclivity on your part to only respond to those posts that you have a ready answer to. How about a little humility there K9? C'mon it won't kill you.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Facts are facts and fact is King has done nothing to warrant this love fest everyone is giving him. He has done Nothing since landing here and yet everyone has been so googly-eyed over him. What has he done? How many sacks, TFL, etc has he had? Hell, how many games has even played.

In the only year King played he outsacked your boy Pace. I'm not suggesting King's anything spectacular because in my mind his injury problems make him about as reliable as Wendel Bryant, it just seems your criticism is a bit strange considering you're superfan #1 of annual preseason Pro Bowler and regular season benchwarmer Calvin Pace.

 

[Scott MS]

In the only year King played he outsacked your boy Pace. I'm not suggesting King's anything spectacular because in my mind his injury problems make him about as reliable as Wendel Bryant, it just seems your criticism is a bit strange considering you're superfan #1 of annual preseason Pro Bowler and regular season benchwarmer Calvin Pace.

I don't love either guy, but 12 months from now, we'll be asking "What has King done in the last two years", and the answer will be "nothing".

But, I don't think he'll last that long, at least not when your wrist is that fragile. I think King should save what money he has earned and start considering a new career. Out two years with the same injury to the same body part is not very promising.

 

[Renz]

In the only year King played he outsacked your boy Pace. I'm not suggesting King's anything spectacular because in my mind his injury problems make him about as reliable as Wendel Bryant, it just seems your criticism is a bit strange considering you're superfan #1 of annual preseason Pro Bowler and regular season benchwarmer Calvin Pace.

Pace had 4.5 sacks last season. King's career high is 2.

 

[Scott MS]

Don't you think, to some extent, putting a guy on Injured Reserve before the season starts says, "we're not going to cut you, but we're not going to wait for you either"? Especially when the recovery time is shorter than the length of the season.

A roster spot is opened up for the team and they move on. Maybe with King, that was the rationale. DT is too critical to wait around for King, whether he can play in October/November or not. Plus, is he even in shape after practicing for 7 times?

Cut the losses and move on. Redmond could be a similar story and they'll give him another try next season.

In all, probably smart moves given the situation.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

In the only year King played he outsacked your boy Pace. I'm not suggesting King's anything spectacular because in my mind his injury problems make him about as reliable as Wendel Bryant, it just seems your criticism is a bit strange considering you're superfan #1 of annual preseason Pro Bowler and regular season benchwarmer Calvin Pace.

Huh? I think you might want to check your numbers there. He has a grand total of 2 sacks.and a grand total of 14 tackles. And you said it yourself, AT LEAST Pace has shown somehting , albeit preseason, punt return team etc, what exactly can you say King has shown? Nothing. Zip . Nada.

People fell in love with him coz Mac talked him up about how he wanted to move him around the line in an "Alabama" type scheme....Hurt or not, he hasnt shown anything and his stats (of what little there are) back that up!

 

[kerouac9]

First I agree with you to a certain extent on King. He is assuredly fragile. He did however show some promise his rookie season. Don't have the stats on him for that year but I do recall that he was a playmaker for the games that he played in. I do recall that he was hurt for a few games that year but did return and was a effective playmaker. The thing that i suspect you have forgotten or never did know was that coming out of college the rap on him was that he was fragile but talented. So really to say that he is overrated is a stretch. We got production out of him his rookie year which is probably more than a lot of knowledgeable people probably expected.
Now on to Shipp. First he has only really been a full-time RB on our roster for only 2 seasons. That would be the 2002 and 03 seasons. 2001 he was mostly a ST'er.
In 2002 Finished the season with 1,247 total yards from scrimmage on 226 touches (188 rushes, 38 receptions) to finish with a 5.5-yard average, second in the NFC to Minnesota running back Michael Bennett. His rushing stats that year were 834 yds 188 carries 4.4 yrd avg lngest gain 56 6 TD's. Of note... on receiving end of 80-yard scoring play on screen pass @ StL (12/15), the team’s longest play from scrimmage since 1988. I don't know how many actual games he played in that yr. Maybe someone can help me out here.
In 2003 he put up 830 yds on 228 att's 3.6 avg 36 lnges gain 0 td's. He was the starting RB over the final 11 games while Emmit was on the mend for 6 games. He played ST the first 5 games as the #2 RB. Why he didn't score any TD's for these 11 games I don't know. Sully was the "official OC" but was he really calling the plays??? Who was actually calling the plays after he offered to resign as the OC that year. Could it be that he wasn't used properly or not at all when we were in the red-zone that year? I don't know. Do you K9? Honestly do you?
Looking at the previous 2 paragraphs and to continue to say that Shipp is overrated is ludicrous Kerouac. Now to be fair (something you are not btw) I will admit that Marcel has in the past "gone in a funk" for a couple of games after putting up a couple or three good games. Do I like that about him? No. Do I wish he was more durable? Yes. However to continue to denigrate his efforts as a good and solid RB and team player on this team is just WRONG!!! Will you admit that you have at least been unfair to say that he is overrated?
One other thing please respond directly to this post as I have noticed a proclivity on your part to only respond to those posts that you have a ready answer to. How about a little humility there K9? C'mon it won't kill you.

You think I don't know the stats, Ark? Please. You didn't tell me anything I haven't known for two years--incidentally, the last time Marcel Shipp found the end zone in a meaningful game.

The NFL is a "what have you done for me lately" league, and what Marcel Shipp's done in the past 12 months is nothing. What he's done in the last 24 months is get a lot of meaningless yards without finding the end zone a single time. How long are people going to jock a part-time performance that's nearly three years old?

On the "what Cardinal player is underrated" thread, 50% of the posters said "Marcel Shipp." Are you kidding me? What has he done in the past two seasons? Nothing! I'm sorry, but a 3.5 YPC average and 830 yards doesn't mean anything to me. Look at the part-time players at RB last season in Kevin Jones and Julius Jones and you'll see what numbers from a promising franchise back look like.

Good starting NFL backs don't have two good games and then disappear for two months. Good starting NFL backs don't fail to find the end zone in 228 rushing attempts. The coaches of good NFL backs don't say that their ceiling is 1000 yards and 6 TDs, as Denny Green said about Marcel last training camp.

Is he overrated nationally? No. People who aren't on the Marcel Shipp Kool-Aid understand that the guy's an average #2 back who can give you three quality starts a season if there's an injury, but a guy who doesn't have a nose for the end zone and can't be trusted inside the 20 not to cough up the ball.

But on this board, you'll hear people compare him favorably to Ladanion Tomlinson. C'mon, fellas. Marcel Shipp barely compares favorably to Nick Goings.

 

[NFL_FAN]

Slightly OT, what do the practice squad players get paid??

 

[SoCal Cardfan]

Slightly OT, what do the practice squad players get paid??

They get twice as much as the tackling dummies I hear.

 

[joeshmo]

Slightly OT, what do the practice squad players get paid??

$4,700 weekly for the 2005-07 League Years including postseason weeks in which his Club is in the playoffs.

 

[MadCardDisease]

They ran 5 man fronts last year too and King was hurt. Bryant was on the roster last year too, does that make him "good"

Facts are facts and fact is King has done nothing to warrant this love fest everyone is giving him. He has done Nothing since landing here and yet everyone has been so googly-eyed over him. What has he done? How many sacks, TFL, etc has he had? Hell, how many games has even played.

Just another Mac holdover and bad draft pick!

When Green and Clancy took over King really fit well into the UT position. He was doing so well last year during training camp that Dockett lost his starting position to him when he held out. It wasn't till King got injuried that Dockett got his starting position back.

Yes pretty much every team runs 5 man fronts. Yes Bryant was on the team last year. However Clancy has never put together packages to get Bryant on the field. That is what he was working on for King before he got hurt.

Yes King has no stats to back him up. He's was injured all last season and place on IR so its kind of hard to put up stat when you are not allowed to play. If King was such a bad pick why do you think Green has kept him around for so long??? Why was Clancy trying to get him on the field more???

I'm not saying that King is a Pro-Bowler. But he is a very solid backup and we will really miss him if anything ever happens to Dockett!

 

[JeffGollin]

KING:
It's hard to gauge how important he could have been to the team, because each year he'd flash talent in drills and then get hurt, so we really don't know what he could or couldn't do with live bullets firing.

SHIPP
Forget about reputation, comparisons etc. and ask yourselves: "When he's in our lineup, does he add something to the offense we'd otherwise not have?"

I believe he does. He provides a degree of toughness in our inside running game we'd otherwise not have. (While I like Arrington and Anderson, I don't think they can carry our ground game on their backs alone).

Shipp may not be a Tomlinson or a Priest Holmes, but (assuming he stays healthy and our O-line doesn't remain as fragmented as it has to date) he could represent the difference between our putting enough points on the board to make the playoffs - or not.

 

[Scott MS]

If King was such a bad pick why do you think Green has kept him around for so long??? Why was Clancy trying to get him on the field more???

I'm not saying that King is a Pro-Bowler. But he is a very solid backup and we will really miss him if anything ever happens to Dockett!

I don't think anybody is saying King was a bad pick or is a bad player. Problem is that he is always injured and isn't playing. Two years out is a long time. If you know Green, he'll probably cut his losses and find a new DT for next season, not wanting to gamble again on King.

Would you gamble on King again next season?

 

[spanky1]

I really don't understand why k9 continues to cut down Marcel Shipp. He simply can't let go on the fact that he didn't score a lot of TD's for us prior to his injury.

Now I haven't read one post that suggests that he is in the same class as the elite backs (Tomlinson, Holmes, Alexander etc.), but I also know that he runs hard and can play a very meaningful role for the Cardinals if our O-Line and his health cooperate......neither of which has really happened since he's been around.

Going forward, very few teams will be relying on one feature back.....even St. Louis with Steven Jackson (man Section 11 was bang on....this guy is one tough hombre) will mix it up with Marshall Faulk throughout the entire season.

If Arrington amd Shipp perform well this year, do I think we'll pass on a RB on day one next year....no (especially if Jerod Void falls into our laps in round 3). But this is not a negative on either of them.....it's the reality of the game. Every team needs three RB's with contrasting running styles.

There is a place on my team for a Marcel Shipp any day.

 

[kerouac9]

In 2002 Finished the season with 1,247 total yards from scrimmage on 226 touches (188 rushes, 38 receptions) to finish with a 5.5-yard average, second in the NFC to Minnesota running back Michael Bennett. His rushing stats that year were 834 yds 188 carries 4.4 yrd avg lngest gain 56 6 TD's. Of note... on receiving end of 80-yard scoring play on screen pass @ StL (12/15), the team’s longest play from scrimmage since 1988. I don't know how many actual games he played in that yr. Maybe someone can help me out here.

Here are some other guys that had good seasons in 2002. Maybe some of Shipp's jockers can get on their bandwagon, as well:


Antowain Smith: 252 att, 982 yds, 6 TDs, 31 rec, 243 yds, 2 TDs (very Shipp-like stats, but people would be up in arms if he were here...)
Charlie Garner: 182 att, 962 yds, 7 TDs, 91 rec., 941 yds, 4 TDs. (By the way, that's a 6.97 yd/touch average, which is more than Shipp's, but I'll forgive you from making stuff up to support a bad point)
William Green: 243 att, 887 yards, 6 TDs.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

Pace had 4.5 sacks last season. King's career high is 2.

I'm referring to 2003 which is the only years Pace and King played together. King had 2 sacks from the DT position and Pace only had 1 from the DE position.

Again, I'm not suggesting King is anything special because his injuries make him about as helpful to the team as a guy who keeps getting DUI's, but to say he hasn't done anything when on the field is non-factual. I just find it ******** to jock Pace and hate on King when statistically they're both non-factors come every regular season whether because of injuries or underperformance.

 

[joeshmo]

The King debate.

He will be on the team next year, at least for the offseason.

He is a RFA after this year and we will give him the minimum tender, which is chump change.

We will try him out again and cut him if need be with no cap implications since he wont be getting a bonus. Its a no loss situation for us.

Plus King was going to file a greivance against us last year becuase of his injury which was partly our fault for clearing him way to early, then he went out and had his screws pop out of the plate he had in his hand. We will treat him with kid gloves and give him every opportunity to make the team becuase of that. So he will have another shot at making the team next year, now if he does make it or stays injury free is another question.

 

[WildBB]

So who do we have after Kolojez at DT?

Any decent free agents left? Who was that guy who used to be a Raider?

Who picked up Bryant?

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

When Green and Clancy took over King really fit well into the UT position. He was doing so well last year during training camp that Dockett lost his starting position to him when he held out. It wasn't till King got injuried that Dockett got his starting position back.

Yes pretty much every team runs 5 man fronts. Yes Bryant was on the team last year. However Clancy has never put together packages to get Bryant on the field. That is what he was working on for King before he got hurt.

Yes King has no stats to back him up. He's was injured all last season and place on IR so its kind of hard to put up stat when you are not allowed to play. If King was such a bad pick why do you think Green has kept him around for so long??? Why was Clancy trying to get him on the field more???

I'm not saying that King is a Pro-Bowler. But he is a very solid backup and we will really miss him if anything ever happens to Dockett!

Well I wont argue with you that we need quality depth at the d-line, but I will argue that King is quality. No one can say his loss this season "is big" b/c no one has any idea if he can even hold up for 4, 6, 10, 12 games. He has no stats of any kind and the little I did see him play this year was nothing spectacular. Did he even get a tackle??

All I am saying is the lovefest for King is unwarranted. People gave him slack coz he is a 5th round pick, but please, dont act like this is a big loss! I will lose very little sleep over this loss...in fact I think we can bring in a DT/DE off the waiver wire who would contribute as much, if not more, than King would have.

 

[LVCARDFREAK]

I'm referring to 2003 which is the only years Pace and King played together. King had 2 sacks from the DT position and Pace only had 1 from the DE position.

Again, I'm not suggesting King is anything special because his injuries make him about as helpful to the team as a guy who keeps getting DUI's, but to say he hasn't done anything when on the field is non-factual. I just find it ******** to jock Pace and hate on King when statistically they're both non-factors come every regular season whether because of injuries or underperformance.

He hasnt done anything on the field and it isnt non factual...14 tackles and 2 sacks in 3 years is 'something"?

All I have ever said about Pace was that he deserved a chance to play. He has proven that at least he is willing to work hard, get stronger, and play hard...Can you say that about King? I didnt hear the coaches saying anything about the strides King made this preseason or that he gained 15lbs of muscle. I dont see Green and Company cutting Zellner b/c of King's play do you?

I am not hating on King, all I am saying is his loss for the season is a complete non-issue. He has proven nothing here excepth the ability to stay hurt, and when on the field he has done nothing there either...

 

[kerouac9]

He Can you say that about King? I didnt hear the coaches saying anything about the strides King made this preseason or that he gained 15lbs of muscle.

Actually, that King showed up to camp at around 290, adding something like 20 lbs over the past year, was a story--especially on this board. See the story here.