Cardinals Seahawks: The everything wrong with Kyler thread

[Russ Smith]

First, I’ve been criticizing Murray almost from the day he arrived. The following is not an attempt to absolve him of responsibility. However I still believe accountability starts with the coach. Murray doesn’t use progressions (very bad), but I’d expect the primary target to be open more often if the play design didn‘t tip the target or involved more complex motion. The examples in this thread need to be shown to Murray on a tablet, like many teams do. Murray should not be allowed to just sit on the bench feeling sorry for himself. The entire offense should view the game tapes together, including Murray. Murray should politely be asked to explain his decisions. Until the coach has the intestinal fortitude to hold Murray publicly accountable, I don’t expect things to change.

Literally just read a Matt Maiocco article talking about what's wrong with the 49ers and fans are saying Shanahan can't call plays. Maiocco pointed out that they spent the offseason designing an offense that Lance could run, Jimmy G was going to be traded and wasn't healthy or at practice. Then Lance gets hurt and they have to go back to Jimmy but change the offense entirely because he can't run the offense they put in and didn't know it.

In the Falcons game there were 6 plays by scheme that resulted in wide open plays. Ray Ray McCloud dropped a bomb right in his hands for a huge gain, Woerner the TE dropped a 30 yarder. Aiyuk had a 39 yarder called back for a hold. A designed rollout play to Kittle was open for a TD but Jimmy overthrew it. And there were 2 plays wide open for TD's to Deebo where Jimmy didn't see him or didn't throw it. He said there's a handful of coaches in the NFL that scheme that many big plays wide open in one game, and they didn't complete any of them.

I don't think Kliff is that good of a playcaller but it is apparent that Murray is leaving points on teh field by missing reads or missing throws. And he doesn't have the same excuse.

 

[Shane]

Literally just read a Matt Maiocco article talking about what's wrong with the 49ers and fans are saying Shanahan can't call plays. Maiocco pointed out that they spent the offseason designing an offense that Lance could run, Jimmy G was going to be traded and wasn't healthy or at practice. Then Lance gets hurt and they have to go back to Jimmy but change the offense entirely because he can't run the offense they put in and didn't know it.

In the Falcons game there were 6 plays by scheme that resulted in wide open plays. Ray Ray McCloud dropped a bomb right in his hands for a huge gain, Woerner the TE dropped a 30 yarder. Aiyuk had a 39 yarder called back for a hold. A designed rollout play to Kittle was open for a TD but Jimmy overthrew it. And there were 2 plays wide open for TD's to Deebo where Jimmy didn't see him or didn't throw it. He said there's a handful of coaches in the NFL that scheme that many big plays wide open in one game, and they didn't complete any of them.

I don't think Kliff is that good of a playcaller but it is apparent that Murray is leaving points on teh field by missing reads or missing throws. And he doesn't have the same excuse.

I don’t really see how that’s much of an excuse for Shanahan… Garoppolo has been his quarterback for quite some time having to switch and go to him should be easy… almost all of those players have played in the same scheme with Garoppolo and Shanny…. If anything the team should’ve been better equipped to switch due to the injury??? What am I missing?

 

[Totally_Red]

Literally just read a Matt Maiocco article talking about what's wrong with the 49ers and fans are saying Shanahan can't call plays. Maiocco pointed out that they spent the offseason designing an offense that Lance could run, Jimmy G was going to be traded and wasn't healthy or at practice. Then Lance gets hurt and they have to go back to Jimmy but change the offense entirely because he can't run the offense they put in and didn't know it.

In the Falcons game there were 6 plays by scheme that resulted in wide open plays. Ray Ray McCloud dropped a bomb right in his hands for a huge gain, Woerner the TE dropped a 30 yarder. Aiyuk had a 39 yarder called back for a hold. A designed rollout play to Kittle was open for a TD but Jimmy overthrew it. And there were 2 plays wide open for TD's to Deebo where Jimmy didn't see him or didn't throw it. He said there's a handful of coaches in the NFL that scheme that many big plays wide open in one game, and they didn't complete any of them.

I don't think Kliff is that good of a playcaller but it is apparent that Murray is leaving points on teh field by missing reads or missing throws. And he doesn't have the same excuse.

Spending the off-season on an offense designed for Lance reminds me of BA's last off-season when they designed an offense around David Johnson and he got hurt week 1and missed the entire season.

 

[Russ Smith]

I don’t really see how that’s much of an excuse for Shanahan… Garoppolo has been his quarterback for quite some time having to switch and go to him should be easy… almost all of those players have played in the same scheme with Garoppolo and Shanny…. If anything the team should’ve been better equipped to switch due to the injury??? What am I missing?

They spent the entire OTA's, minicamp and camp practicing with a starter that can't throw the ball well yet so it was a completely revamped offense. And remember Jimmy couldn't practice until Sept and then they held him out because they wanted to trade him and didn't want him to get hurt. So he was WAY behind when the season started.

They lost to the Falcons with 7 starters out on defense, Wilson fumbled went for a TD and as I said they had 6 huge plays that were open and didn't complete any of them they should have easily won that game but they didn't make the plays.

Last year after we beat them with McCoy they were 3-5, completely dead and Shanahan was the most overrated coach in the NFL, and they ended up in the NFC championship game. Their fans are spoiled because of Walsh, Montana, Young, Rice etc they don't realize how good Shanahan is that he got to a SB and a NFC title game with Jimmy G as the QB.

 

[Shane]

They spent the entire OTA's, minicamp and camp practicing with a starter that can't throw the ball well yet so it was a completely revamped offense. And remember Jimmy couldn't practice until Sept and then they held him out because they wanted to trade him and didn't want him to get hurt. So he was WAY behind when the season started.

They lost to the Falcons with 7 starters out on defense, Wilson fumbled went for a TD and as I said they had 6 huge plays that were open and didn't complete any of them they should have easily won that game but they didn't make the plays.

Last year after we beat them with McCoy they were 3-5, completely dead and Shanahan was the most overrated coach in the NFL, and they ended up in the NFC championship game. Their fans are spoiled because of Walsh, Montana, Young, Rice etc they don't realize how good Shanahan is that he got to a SB and a NFC title game with Jimmy G as the QB.

Listen I get it but still don’t see the love affair with Shanahan. The guy has the exact same winning % as Kliff and been in the same job for over 6 years now. It’s not some small sample size. He has had way more talent to work with and he’s still a sub .500 HC in this league. You are what your record says you are. His teams regularly go out there and put up some head scratching performances. The only thing you know for sure is that they will own the Rams. Lol….. JMO.

 

[Russ Smith]

Listen I get it but still don’t see the love affair with Shanahan. The guy has the exact same winning % as Kliff and been in the same job for over 6 years now. It’s not some small sample size. He has had way more talent to work with and he’s still a sub .500 HC in this league. You are what your record says you are. His teams regularly go out there and put up some head scratching performances. The only thing you know for sure is that they will own the Rams. Lol….. JMO.

When did Kliff get to 2 NFC title games and 1 super bowl? When did Kliff get to a SB as an offensive coordinator?

I hate the 49ers but the record is misleading I've done this before. First year he had Hoyer and CJ Beathard as the QB's, went 1-10, and then they traded for Jimmy G and won the last 5 games. Next year, Jimmy tore his ACL 1-2 with him 3-10 without him(mullens and beathard again). Next year 13-3 gets to the SB and loses because Jimmy missed a WIDE open Wr for a Td and Mahomes wins the game from behind. Next year loses Jimmy again 3-3 with him 3-7 without him(Mullens and Beathard again). You make Kliff play half the season with Nick Mullens or CJ Beathard at QB he's not winning lots of games I guarantee it.

When he has a healthy NFL caliber starter he makes the playoffs and is a threat to win it all. Now they have a great defense but they have the most imaginative run game in the NFL and they do all sorts of pre snap stuff to get mismatches. He's the anti Kliff he moves players around more than almost anybody, Kliff almost never does.

 

[Shane]

When did Kliff get to 2 NFC title games and 1 super bowl? When did Kliff get to a SB as an offensive coordinator?

I hate the 49ers but the record is misleading I've done this before. First year he had Hoyer and CJ Beathard as the QB's, went 1-10, and then they traded for Jimmy G and won the last 5 games. Next year, Jimmy tore his ACL 1-2 with him 3-10 without him(mullens and beathard again). Next year 13-3 gets to the SB and loses because Jimmy missed a WIDE open Wr for a Td and Mahomes wins the game from behind. Next year loses Jimmy again 3-3 with him 3-7 without him(Mullens and Beathard again). You make Kliff play half the season with Nick Mullens or CJ Beathard at QB he's not winning lots of games I guarantee it.

When he has a healthy NFL caliber starter he makes the playoffs and is a threat to win it all. Now they have a great defense but they have the most imaginative run game in the NFL and they do all sorts of pre snap stuff to get mismatches. He's the anti Kliff he moves players around more than almost anybody, Kliff almost never does.

Kliff has to deal with Kyler bro… lol

 

[Russ Smith]

Kliff has to deal with Kyler bro… lol

I get that I'm just saying their records are similar in terms of wins and losses but Kliff has never had anywhere near the level of success that Shanahan has when he's had a healthy QB.

If Shanahan were our coach I don't think we'd be having all these issues, he'd put Kyler in better situations and he would have taught him how to be an NFL QB, if Kyler proved to be uncoachable he would have said so this offseason BEFORE we gave him the big extension.

I think that's a point that's being lost here, Kyler may well be uncoachable but it's also entirely possible Kliff didn't admit that because he knew his own contract chances were much better if Kyler was the QB than if he said you know what he's not the guy we shouldn't extend him. That is I strongly suspect if Kliff did think Kyler was a problem he wouldn't have said so because he saw his job as being tied to Kyler.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

There’s guys open on every play in the NFL more or less. When NFL-caliber athletes that are running forward and know where they want to end up are being covered by guys running backwards and have to guess what the opposing player wants to do it inevitably is favored towards the offensive player. I’ll also definitely argue that some of the plays you say have open WR’s actually are “open” due to how tight the passing windows are in the NFL.

It’s up to the coaches and the players to train their eyes and develop the instincts to know who will be open and where. Long story short - something is broken. Kyler, Kliff who freaking knows who’s at fault. The curiosity is why Kyler has been hitting these plays for most of his NFL career and basically stopped doing so six games ago.

 

[reebokalone2001]

If he is forced to throw the ball because of pressure and it results in an incomplete pass, the defense is credited with a hurry. Basically if he is forced out of the pocket or throws an incomplete pass due to pressure, he is hurried. Accompany that with 2.2 seconds in the pocket on average indicates the offensive line is playing well below average.

Appreciate the response. I am now wondering if Kyler being constantly hurried has anything to do with how slow he reads the defense and how often he stares down one receiver.

 

[BritCard]

None of these game management issues are nearly as important as the ordinary plays.

Execute ordinary plays excellently, and you'll win most games. These higher leverage situations are happening BECAUSE of Murray. The regularly play calls are doing the job.

Right now I'm more concerned at the many stalled drives, much more so than those gaffes.

11 drives. 71 offensive plays. 3 points.

 

[daves]

The only hope going forward is an OC or QB coach between Kliff and Kyler IMO.

Cam Turner has been the QB coach for the last three years, now promoted to "Co-Passing Game Coordinator".

The Official Site of the Arizona Cardinals

NoteCARDS: In his fifth season coaching with the Cardinals, Turner originally joined the staff as an offensive assistant in 2018 and was elevated to assistant quarterbacks coach in 2019. Promoted to quarterbacks coach in 2021 and added the title of co-p

www.azcardinals.com

...dave

 

[BritCard]

I think this is the best example of the biggest issue Kyler has. Not reading defenses and not adjusting his reads based on what he is seeing.

So obviously Kyler knows what is coming on this play and he knows that the defense is in man because of the rare display of pre snap motion. Brown is running a short hitch. Moore is staying in the flat. Both at the bottom of the screen. Green is running a 10 yard hitch at the top and from inline McBride is running something akin to a wheel route up the sideline.

Now, when Moore moves pre snap it's clear as day that the best options are to Kyler's right, not his left. Both routes to his left are short yardage and there are a bunch of defenders down there because the safety walks down into the box pre snap and Mafe on the edge is clearly not going to rush the passer as he's in not in a rushing stance. So it's 4 vs 2 at the bottom of the screen.

To Kyler's left however it's 2 vs 1. At the very worst it could be 2 vs 2 if the Edge rusher drops off into coverage but he's showing he's going to rush and either way you have to fancy McBride vs Darrell Taylor. Eno also goes out into the flat and while the LB moves that way there is so much space out there to get yards. Eno with McBride out front could get 20 yards there and I'm sure there will be an audible in this play for Kyler to signal just that so McBride switches to run blocking on the same route. McBride is so wide open himself he could house the right pass.

All Kyler has to do is hold the ball another 2nd while under no pressure and wait for McBride to get open. Which he should know is going to happen. He doesn't even look to his right where ALL the yards are. He goes straight to the bottom of the screen which should be off the table all together.

I can't tell you how bad this is and it encapsulates what is wrong with Kyler perfectly. It's basic stuff. It's not even some exotic look that could confuse him. SMH.

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[schutd]

You know, he's been so bad it reminded me of Cam Newton.

And that made me think about Kyler having Covid in August. Cam was clearly a different player after Covid.

I'm really not one that thinks Covid does X, Y and Z as some people do. But, it pro sports it only has to knock you off your game a few percent for it to make a word of difference.

On the other hand, I haven't heard about the same issues in practice but you have more time then.

This is an interesting thought. Being in restaurants, I have had covid twice. Neither time severe, but since the second time, in June of this year, I definitely feel some amount of brain fog. Its hard to quantify, because physically, I felt completely normal after a couple days, but mentally, IM a tick slower, forget some words every now and again, and if I dont write it down, it doesnt get done. All new stuff for me. Granted, I'm 52, but its an interesting thought, cause not much more makes sense...

 

[cardpa]

This is why I'm not on the "fire Kliff" train.

Its clear there are open guys all the time. Kliff can't throw the ball.

This is an offense Kyler has been in 3 years and some variation of his whole career. How is some new HC or OC coming in going to help when he has to learn a whole new playbook, verbiage and playing style?

Kliff has his issues but I think firing him makes Kyler worse. I think adding an old school veteran take no **** OC to sit between him and Kyler would help everyone.

I'd love that to be Jim Caldwell who has great experience as a QB coach, OC and HC.

Damn, I didn't even think about that. The present offense Murray is in was supposed to be very similar to what he was used to playing in, including the verbiage and yet he still can't execute it. Can you imagine the upheaval if Murray had to learn a whole new offense including verbiage? Murray would need to dedicate a substantial amount of time learning it and studying it. Talk about a disaster waiting to happen.

Then on the other hand, a new system would force Murray's hand and he would either demand a trade or he could end up being released (even though I doubt that would happen simply because of the monetary investment) or he could end up benched which would bruise his ego and maybe that would be the kick in the dupa he needs.

Maybe the solution is for the team to acquire another QB to threaten Murray's status as the #1 QB or draft one that could be a some level of a contender for the QB position or at least make Murray feel that his hold on the #1 position isn't as solid as he thinks it is. Can you imagine what would go through Murray's head if the team selected a QB in the draft in the second or third round? Even a fourth or fifth round selection could cause some consternation in Murray's head.

 

[cardpa]

I think this is the best example of the biggest issue Kyler has. Not reading defenses and not adjusting his reads based on what he is seeing.

So obviously Kyler knows what is coming on this play and he knows that the defense is in man because of the rare display of pre snap motion. Brown is running a short hitch. Moore is staying in the flat. Both at the bottom of the screen. Green is running a 10 yard hitch at the top and from inline McBride is running something akin to a wheel route up the sideline.

Now, when Moore moves pre snap it's clear as day that the best options are to Kyler's right, not his left. Both routes to his left are short yardage and there are a bunch of defenders down there because the safety walks down into the box pre snap and Mafe on the edge is clearly not going to rush the passer as he's in not in a rushing stance. So it's 4 vs 2 at the bottom of the screen.

To Kyler's left however it's 2 vs 1. At the very worst it could be 2 vs 2 if the Edge rusher drops off into coverage but he's showing he's going to rush and either way you have to fancy McBride vs Darrell Taylor. Eno also goes out into the flat and while the LB moves that way there is so much space out there to get yards. Eno with McBride out front could get 20 yards there and I'm sure there will be an audible in this play for Kyler to signal just that so McBride switches to run blocking on the same route. McBride is so wide open himself he could house the right pass.

All Kyler has to do is hold the ball another 2nd while under no pressure and wait for McBride to get open. Which he should know is going to happen. He doesn't even look to his right where ALL the yards are. He goes straight to the bottom of the screen which should be off the table all together.

I can't tell you how bad this is and it encapsulates what is wrong with Kyler perfectly. It's basic stuff. It's not even some exotic look that could confuse him. SMH.

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I must have watched this play a dozen times and came to the same conclusion and I'm no expert on football plays. It seemed that the ball was going to Brown no matter what else was available. Notice Green actually gave up on his route because he seem to know the ball wasn't coming to the right side. A swing pass to Benjamin would have gotten 15 yds. minimum and probably more given he had two blockers in front of him and just two defenders to block.

Thank you for these breakdowns of plays. I imagine a good amount of time was needed to set these up, more than I would have wanted to invest in.

 

[BritCard]

I must have watched this play a dozen times and came to the same conclusion and I'm no expert on football plays. It seemed that the ball was going to Brown no matter what else was available. Notice Green actually gave up on his route because he seem to know the ball wasn't coming to the right side. A swing pass to Benjamin would have gotten 15 yds. minimum and probably more given he had two blockers in front of him and just two defenders to block.

Thank you for these breakdowns of plays. I imagine a good amount of time was needed to set these up, more than I would have wanted to invest in.

I still shake my head every time I watch that play.

The funny thing is that a lot of pundits are saying the Seahawks defense showed up. They really didn't. This play is a perfect example, their defense was pretty much a mess. Yes they made some plays with the forced fumble and the INT but it was all over the place.

There was the play I showed where we had 3 on 1 at the top of the screen and Kyler still ran the ball.

There were so many yards available. If Kyler has a perfect game we win 35-19. If he just has a career average game we win 24-19.

There is no greater testament to how bad he is playing than him only scoring 3 against this defense.

 

[AZfaninMN]

Appreciate the response. I am now wondering if Kyler being constantly hurried has anything to do with how slow he reads the defense and how often he stares down one receiver.

That and he played a 1 read offense in college with success, but that doesn’t translate to the NFL.

 

[BigRedRage]

something about a buffalo nickel

 

[AZCB34]

I mean serious question does anybody see he’s getting drilled over this in the team film sessions?

Drilled? No. But I believe he is being coached on this stuff and he is ignoring the coaching since we see the same things over and over again. I was skeptical of blaming Kliff for everything but it is obvious that Kyler is an even greater problem than even I thought

 

[AZCB34]

I think Kyler is so concerned/afraid of contact that he doesn’t want to go through progressions so he dumps it off first possible chance. Many QBs will hang in there pocket KNOWING they will get lit up to make the correct read but not Kyler. Since last season I have been saying he is soft and I honestly hate suggesting that but to me it is obvious.

 

[BritCard]

Drilled? No. But I believe he is being coached on this stuff and he is ignoring the coaching since we see the same things over and over again. I was skeptical of blaming Kliff for everything but it is obvious that Kyler is an even greater problem than even I thought

There are 3 types of people I have found when it comes to work.

1) Those that want to get by with the minimum of effort
2) Those that want to do well and work their hardest
3) Those that say they want to do well but think they don't have to put the work in to get there

Sadly, it seems Kyler is the 3rd.

What's crazy is the team knows it and let themselves get bullied into paying out early.

 

[football karma]

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this one seems like it wasnt pre snap that determined where the ball was going -- it feels like he decided in the huddle

 

[BritCard]

this one seems like it wasnt pre snap that determined where the ball was going -- it feels like he decided in the huddle

Which is why we have so many bad plays. This one is lucky to have been any gain considering it's 4 vs 2.

 

[Stout]

I think Kyler is so concerned/afraid of contact that he doesn’t want to go through progressions so he dumps it off first possible chance. Many QBs will hang in there pocket KNOWING they will get lit up to make the correct read but not Kyler. Since last season I have been saying he is soft and I honestly hate suggesting that but to me it is obvious.

Oh, it's obvious. His softness blew one game and helped blow another one.