Cleaning House

[CtCardinals78]

I would love to see how anyone on this board can give any factual reason to be positive for the upcoming season. I understand many of you hope for improvement due to the changes that have been made ie Arians and Keim, but consider that change in the past has very rarely led to improvement. You are entitled to your belief in hope, but don't hammer those of us who are entitled to our belief in reality.

IMO, the Cardinals have lost getting the benefit of the doubt. They have to show me they are a better franchise and have made good moves before I will give them any credit. That is just my outlook on things.

Ill give it a shot.

The team under Whisenhunt and company was steadily regressing and at a rapid pace. They tied ridiculous contracts to older and injured players which ate up valuable space.

This new regime is cutting ties with all the bad investments Graves and Whisenhunt made. This year will be painful, in fact it may rival the worst seasons in terms of wins and losses in years, if not all time.

That said players are now back on board. No one is clamoring to leave. Players are being re-signed and a tremendous amount of coaching ability has been brought on board. If you're going to clean house, then clean house. This is what the Cardinals will do and each year they should get better and better.

There is a lot to be optimistic for, it's just going to be a tough road to hoe for a year or two.

 

[kerouac9]

let me ask you this. what exactly did you WANT this team to do? I already know you thought we should have extended Wiz and demoted Graves to just dealing with contracts (which I thought was REALLY odd considering the horrific cap position he put us in... (maybe I'm wrong about that... but I thought that's what you were advocating for)... but now that those decisions have been made what do you want or what do you think would be the right thing to do re: the draft/FA?

That's a completely fair question, and one that I was trying to think of an answer to last night. I'm gonna make a new post about what I would do after I get my morning calls taken care of.

What I will say is that I believed that this team had a personnel problem, but not 40% of the personnel. The problem was the guys making the decisions. I liked Whis as a game day coach, but clearly he couldn't handle the authority of picking his own groceries (something that I said while it was happening). I don't trust Keim to pick the players, either, which is one reason why I'm so upset.

But you're right; the apple cart is upset. Wilson and Beanie are gone, and we've lost one starting cornerback. Let me put together an updated plan for free agency and the draft, but there's really not much that can be done to improve this team from 5-11 in 2013, which should be the hope, right?

 

[Denny Green Fan]

What concerns me is that Keim was part of the scouting/selection of these very players that are now being jettisoned. Don't have a lot of confidence he's going to get it right now. Mike B is going to insist on something to get butts back in the seats. Geno at 7 maybe, or pick up Palmer?

Jadaveon Clowney?

 

[Cheesebeef]

That's a completely fair question, and one that I was trying to think of an answer to last night. I'm gonna make a new post about what I would do after I get my morning calls taken care of.

What I will say is that I believed that this team had a personnel problem, but not 40% of the personnel. The problem was the guys making the decisions. I liked Whis as a game day coach, but clearly he couldn't handle the authority of picking his own groceries (something that I said while it was happening). I don't trust Keim to pick the players, either, which is one reason why I'm so upset.

But you're right; the apple cart is upset. Wilson and Beanie are gone, and we've lost one starting cornerback. Let me put together an updated plan for free agency and the draft, but there's really not much that can be done to improve this team from 5-11 in 2013, which should be the hope, right?

can't really argue much of that.

 

[clif]

The only that I have a problem with is when people say the Keim has been apart of the decision making process. How in the world does anyone know what kind of input he has had prior to his promotion? From all accounts he was nothing more than a scout for years and then he lately he was in seen in the draft room on draft cam.

For all we know he could have been doing nothing more than getting coffee for the other guys.

 

[kerouac9]

The only that I have a problem with is when people say the Keim has been apart of the decision making process. How in the world does anyone know what kind of input he has had prior to his promotion? From all accounts he was nothing more than a scout for years and then he lately he was in seen in the draft room on draft cam.

For all we know he could have been doing nothing more than getting coffee for the other guys.

If that's the case, then why would it be good news that we just appointed a massively underqualified gopher to our general manager position, and why should we afford him any trust or faith that he's making smart decisions?

 

[Cheesebeef]

If that's the case, then why would it be good news that we just appointed a massively underqualified gopher to our general manager position, and why should we afford him any trust or faith that he's making smart decisions?

exactly.

 

[Mulli]

If that's the case, then why would it be good news that we just appointed a massively underqualified gopher to our general manager position, and why should we afford him any trust or faith that he's making smart decisions?

This.

 

[MadCardDisease]

But you're right; the apple cart is upset. Wilson and Beanie are gone, and we've lost one starting cornerback. Let me put together an updated plan for free agency and the draft, but there's really not much that can be done to improve this team from 5-11 in 2013, which should be the hope, right?

I believe these cuts were necessary and predicted they were coming.

This team needed to thin the forest to protect the young healthy trees.

I want to see this team continue to add young studs to the roster and move away from the old guard. If that means another 5-11 season so be it. It's the price we have to pay for some of the moves that Graves made.

The Cardinals have way too many holes to truly be competitive in the NFC West this year. Anyone that doesn't see that is fooling themselves. The best we can hope for is for Arians to bring in a bunch of young guys hungry for an oppertunity. Have them get a year of experience under their belt and maybe win a few games. Maybe then we will see enough growth to give us hope for 2014.

 

[kerouac9]

I believe these cuts were necessary and predicted they were coming.

This team needed to thin the forest to protect the young healthy trees.

I want to see this team continue to add young studs to the roster and move away from the old guard. If that means another 5-11 season so be it. It's the price we have to pay for some of the moves that Graves made.

The Cardinals have way too many holes to truly be competitive in the NFC West this year. Anyone that doesn't see that is fooling themselves. The best we can hope for is for Arians to bring in a bunch of young guys hungry for an oppertunity. Have them get a year of experience under their belt and maybe win a few games. Maybe then we will see enough growth to give us hope for 2014.

Because they happened as you predicted them doesn't mean that the cuts were wise. We'll find out.

What "healthy young trees" is cutting Beanie Wells and Adrian Wilson protecting? That metaphor makes no sense.

As for "adding young studs," let's be sure that this organization can do that BEFORE we cut ties with the productive players that we've already developed or are just entering their prime. I mean, we can replace all these guys with Tim Hightowers and Buster Davises and have to draft higher to replace them 24 months later.

Like we've been doing under Steve Keim's draft acumen.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

If that's the case, then why would it be good news that we just appointed a massively underqualified gopher to our general manager position, and why should we afford him any trust or faith that he's making smart decisions?

We shouldn't.

I haven't.

Yet, I am not going to harp on these things every time I write up something on this board.

Bidwill, and Keim/Licht are highly suspect until proven otherwise.

I personally like [Bruce Arians & coaching staff] as a whole, but would have preferred Mike McCoy and Ray Horton.

I have no problem going 2-14 this year, if it means moving in the right direction (coughTeddyBridgewatercough).

All and all, it is not that glamorous of an offseason, and nothing that I can firmly have faith in.

But it is, what it is. Last year was horrible, and the year with Derek Anderson was worse, yet they were nothing compared to the early 2000's. Point is, this IS the Cardinals, and I came to grips two years ago, that this team is completely gone from its two years of winning.

This IS a brand new beginning. Beginning of what I do not know.

A lot of people have hope right now, I am mostly melancholy about the whole situation. More interested in the movement of the players and who goes where.

I say be angry if you want, I say be hopeful if you want, but always be respectful of each other no matter what. None of us is making the decisions, so if there is anger to be had, then unleash it on the "gopher"

LOL, gopher.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

"I want you to kill all the gophers" [said in very thick Irish accent]

"Well, pardon me sir, if I do that, they'll lock me up and throw away the key"

 

[kerouac9]

But it is, what it is. Last year was horrible, and the year with Derek Anderson was worse, yet they were nothing compared to the early 2000's. Point is, this IS the Cardinals, and I came to grips two years ago, that this team is completely gone from its two years of winning.

I actually thought that the Derek Anderson season was more enjoyable and successful than last year's was.

2010: 269.3 YPG (31), 18.1 PPG (26), 182.6 PaYPG (31), 86.6 RuYPG (32), Off DVOA -35.9% (32), -46.1% Pass DVOA (32), -8.6 rush DVOA (25)

2012: 263.1 YPG (32), 15.6 PPG (31), 187.8 PaYPG (28), 75.2 RuYPG (32), Off DVOA -36.0% (32), -30.3% Pass DVOA (31), -22.1 rush DVOA (32)

See? You were just fooled by the step-down from Kurt Warner to Derek Anderson. The slide from Kevin Kolb to Brian Hoyer is much less steep. We score nearly a field goal per game less last year(!?).

Even the debates--where people thought that Max Hall might be good--were better in 2010.

 

[clif]

If that's the case, then why would it be good news that we just appointed a massively underqualified gopher to our general manager position, and why should we afford him any trust or faith that he's making smart decisions?

Because he makes one helluva cup of joe! Obviously.

I have not seen one decision that he has made yet that seemed even remotely difficult let alone head scratch worthy. All these hand wringing and prognosticating is kind of nauseating right now. Let them fill out a roster before we jump off the ledge.

 

[kerouac9]

Because he makes one helluva cup of joe! Obviously.

I have not seen one decision that he has made yet that seemed even remotely difficult let alone head scratch worthy. All these hand wringing and prognosticating is kind of nauseating right now. Let them fill out a roster before we jump off the ledge.

All right. I'll count you in the "judge the roster after June 1 cuts" camp.

 

[clif]

All right. I'll count you in the "judge the roster after June 1 cuts" camp.

HA Ha. I was waiting for that. I just can't seem to get up in arms over early march moves. Hell the players and coaches haven't even talked yet and we're predicting 3-13?

Having said that, we clearly don't look any better than we did 3 months ago, but I seriously doubt these coaches are going in blind.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

Even the debates--where people thought that Max Hall might be good--were better in 2010.

So, that counts as things to look forward too ?

Ok.

Then I sell you this for 2013: Epic debates about Drew Stanton being the QBOF.

Edited on 11/09/14: Or we can wait for this to happen in 2014.


You know you want him.

 

[Totally_Red]

I have not seen one decision that he has made yet that seemed even remotely difficult let alone head scratch worthy. All these hand wringing and prognosticating is kind of nauseating right now. Let them fill out a roster before we jump off the ledge.

+1

Happens almost every offseason. We're doomed! I'm gonna give the regime a chance before I conclude they're in over their head. The previous regime left a mess at quarterback, offensive line and running back.

I hope Keim & Arians don't panic and actually do things with the long term in mind. No short term expensive fixes please. Go for the long term with younger players. Forego the Pittsburgh thirty-somethings. Bring in and draft young talent that can be coached up. That's why you hired all these teaching type coaches. It will take time. That's OK.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Because they happened as you predicted them doesn't mean that the cuts were wise. We'll find out.

What "healthy young trees" is cutting Beanie Wells and Adrian Wilson protecting? That metaphor makes no sense.

As for "adding young studs," let's be sure that this organization can do that BEFORE we cut ties with the productive players that we've already developed or are just entering their prime. I mean, we can replace all these guys with Tim Hightowers and Buster Davises and have to draft higher to replace them 24 months later.

Like we've been doing under Steve Keim's draft acumen.

If we can't do that then were are screwed to begin with and might as well pack up shop for another decade. I'm giving the new staff a chance to draft a class or two before I declare them a success or total bust.

And which productive players did we cut that are just entering their prime?

 

[kerouac9]

If we can't do that then were are screwed to begin with and might as well pack up shop for another decade. I'm giving the new staff a chance to draft a class or two before I declare them a success or total bust.

And which productive players did we cut that are just entering their prime?

Keim's had a half-dozen draft classes. We just cut ties with a RB and WR he was responsible for scouting and identifying. Where are the young studs?

Why can't the young trees develop further down the roster? That's what we did with Calais Campbell. It's what we tried to do with Rashard Johnson, and he couldn't win a starting job four years later.

Who's job was William Gay blocking? Beanie Wells? Adrian Wilson?

All three of them were productive players, and Beanie and Gay were in or entering their prime.

I'm not sure how you can trumpet these releases without seeing who is coming in to take their spots. What you're saying is that you're certain that Jameel Flemming is better than William Gay, without much evidence to support that.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Keim's had a half-dozen draft classes. We just cut ties with a RB and WR he was responsible for scouting and identifying. Where are the young studs?

Why can't the young trees develop further down the roster? That's what we did with Calais Campbell. It's what we tried to do with Rashard Johnson, and he couldn't win a starting job four years later.

Who's job was William Gay blocking? Beanie Wells? Adrian Wilson?

All three of them were productive players, and Beanie and Gay were in or entering their prime.

I'm not sure how you can trumpet these releases without seeing who is coming in to take their spots. What you're saying is that you're certain that Jameel Flemming is better than William Gay, without much evidence to support that.

Wells was a disease and needed to go. Saying that Wells was productive is debatable. Clearly the new staff didn't think much of him.

Losing William Gay is a blip on the radar. The Cardinals have bigger issues than an overpaid mediocre CB. I never said that Flemming was a better option at CB. I just believe the Cardinals will be better served to spend their money elsewhere.

 

[kerouac9]

Wells was a disease and needed to go. Saying that Wells was productive is debatable. Clearly the new staff didn't think much of him.

Losing William Gay is a blip on the radar. The Cardinals have bigger issues than an overpaid mediocre CB. I never said that Flemming was a better option at CB. I just believe the Cardinals will be better served to spend their money elsewhere.

Please justify this sentence. Thanks.

As for Gay? We cut a starting cornerback, who was immediately snapped up on the open market in a DEEP free agency class. They have no one to replace him. You're basically saying that the Cards should save money rather than field a more competitive football team in 2013.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Please justify this sentence. Thanks.

As for Gay? We cut a starting cornerback, who was immediately snapped up on the open market in a DEEP free agency class. They have no one to replace him. You're basically saying that the Cards should save money rather than field a more competitive football team in 2013.

A disease is an abnormal condition that affects the body of the organism. Wells consistant inability to stay healthy affected the team and not in a good way.

I'm not saying the Cardinals should save money. I'm saying they should spend it elsewhere. Gay was snached up for a thrid of the price he was scheduled to make on the Cardinals. So tell me again how much Gay is worth?

You want to keep a 5-11 team together. I want to move forward and trim the fat.

 

[kerouac9]

A disease is an abnormal condition that affects the body of the organism. Wells consistant inability to stay healthy affected the team and not in a good way.

I'm not saying the Cardinals should save money. I'm saying they should spend it elsewhere. Gay was snached up for a thrid of the price he was scheduled to make on the Cardinals. So tell me again how much Gay is worth?

You want to keep a 5-11 team together. I want to move forward and trim the fat.

Wells is a disease, but Ryan Williams isn't? The Cards don't have a committment to Wells until Week 1. Why not kick the tires on him in training camp? There's nothing to lose. He was a 1000 yards, 10 TD guy a year ago. We're poised to spend twice as much money on Reggie Bush.

You don't want to move forward; you want to lay down.

 

[MadCardDisease]

Wells is a disease, but Ryan Williams isn't? The Cards don't have a committment to Wells until Week 1. Why not kick the tires on him in training camp? There's nothing to lose. He was a 1000 yards, 10 TD guy a year ago. We're poised to spend twice as much money on Reggie Bush.

You don't want to move forward; you want to lay down.

Didn't say that Ryan Williams isn't. Cutting Williams saves the Cardinals Nothing. Might as well as give him a shot at training camp. If he continues to suck you cut him.

I'm not laying down. I'm thinking long term and Wells had no future with the Cardinals. Got to move on from the past.

 

[kerouac9]

Didn't say that Ryan Williams isn't. Cutting Williams saves the Cardinals Nothing. Might as well as give him a shot at training camp. If he continues to suck you cut him.

I'm not laying down. I'm thinking long term and Wells had no future with the Cardinals. Got to move on from the past.

How does keeping or cutting Wells affect the long-term future of the Cards? Is he taking carries away from Ryan Williams at 2.4 YPC?