Coro puts the nail in the coffin

[Ollie]

That trade is really a deceiving business-oriented decision, and Sarver must and will be blamed for that, but JJ 'll have to support a part of the blame.

He'll leave for money (I don't think that playing in front of 5000 people in a losing tean is THAT appealing) and to satisfy his ego, after more than 3 years of support by the team when he was shaky and borderline lousy.

Atlanta management overpaid for him, that's fine by me, I just hope that there's a way to reinforce us before the beginning of the season.

 

[cly2tw]

Dan, I don't follow your line of reasoning. Jordan did lead by example. He played hard...always. My point was that Amare has yet to lead by example when it comes to playing defense. He, as one of the poorer defenders on the team, was calling out arguably our best defender on defense, which to me smacks of hypocrisy. I can imagine how that would not sit well.

Well, Amare might have been out of line to call out JJ on his defense. But judging by the way JJ was abused by the likes of Manu, Wade and even Daniels of Sonics and Howard of the Mavs, it's no wonder that the management, maybe partly reacting to the 'rift', brought in Bell to do the job. That's part of the season someone claimed, and I seconded, that the lineup of Amare/KT/Marion/Bell/Nash is already better suited to beat the Spurs than last season's.

 

[Dan H]

In the game in question, Shaq scored 25 points . . . Amare matched him with 25.

Wade had 35 - Joe had 5, on 2-8 shooting. We lost by ten points.

The previous Miami game Shaq had 34 to Amare's 34, and JJ had 24 to Wade's 23 - and we won.

 

[cly2tw]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't see it as being hypocritical - Amare is the leader of the team, and Joe was getting lit up. For all the talk of Amare being a poor defender I don't recall him getting lit up, even going up against bigger, stronger players like Shaq.

Amare is not that bad of a post defender. He is simply not good of a help defender, and bad at boxing out and positioning himself for rebounds. The more reason he was mad that JJ was letting Wade and other get by him so easily.

 

[JPlay]

Our core is Nash, Marion and Stoudemire. We can fill in the other pieces. JJax, Barbosa, Diaw, Thomas, Bell. We need another wing player who can really shoot the three..(Finley) and we'll be fine.

JJ is not worth that money. He's making more than Ginobli..who is the NBAs dreamboy. The Suns cannot afford 3 max players in 2006-2007.

 

[Joe Mama]

OK. The Phoenix Suns were not going to win 62 games again regardless of whether they re-signed JJ. I don't feel like looking up the record right now, but after they started something like 34-4 they were 30-14 the rest of the way. Despite the difference in records they were also a better team in the second half of the season. They just overwhelmed people at first.

I wanted the Phoenix Suns to match the offer for JJ because I thought it would give them their best shot this year and possibly next. I don't think he's worth $70 million over 5 years, especially to THIS team over the next couple of seasons.

Sarver is going to catch a lot of flak over this, and he should. Even though I agreed with the decision at the time he's the one that did not re-sign JJ for $50 million. I'm sure he never imagined that JJ would get such a large contract offer, but it was on him to re-sign him. I definitely don't like the way this has been handled this summer.

I really think this whole story about JJ and Amare is being overblown, and was probably released by someone affiliated with the Phoenix Suns to make it look like there were bigger problems than there really were. It's all about placing the blame. Yes, JJ did have trouble getting the ball back to Amare one he would roll to the basket. That's not easy to do. I don't think that was at all intentional.

Shawn Marion might love JJ, but you know he's wiping his brow with a sigh of relief right now. He had to see that he would have been the odd man out in a year or two in JJ had been retained for that monstrous contract.

This is not the end of the world. The team will still be good over the next couple years at least. Diaw is not JJ, but he's a pretty good player. He actually reminds me a lot of JJ a year or two ago. Will be a decent role player.

Joe

 

[Chaplin]

Sheesh, I hate the trade, but all this talk about Amare wanting to force a trade in a couple years is horribly premature. There's still a long time to go in the offseason, let's see if anything else comes up. I only hope that something will.

 

[AZZenny]

Fascinating - Sky is ALWAYS falling around here! I figure if Nash or Amare wants to leave, then we have a real problem.

You guys - many of you - have previously expressed serious doubts about JJ - his toughness, motivation, smarts and mental makeup, skill set, etc. Late season, esp after he got injured in the playoffs, that swung around to how great and essential he is. Also much talk of don't bust up the great chemistry.

Well, his teammates didn't like Q, JJ didn't like Amare or Marion, and who know if Marion likes anyone; so much for keeping that wunnerful chemistry intact. Winning makes chemistry more than the other way around, although distracting personal crap certainly can derail a competitive team, and Joe was bringing that with him now.

JJ's family are his primary career advisors (that should be a red flag), and HE's the Prima Dona ego happening in the current scenario, not Amare, so please don't turn your snarling pack loose on him now!

It was bad basketball judgment of the novice owner not to pay JJ $5 M more, but if JJ is this unhappy to be on a championship contender, and wants to go nearer to home and play as top dog to an empty house (where the fans dress up as chairs, I think JJax said) then his ego wouldn't have worked here for very long anyhow.

Hmmm... maybe we ought to make Sarver go sit through a week at Atlanta to find out what fans do with losing teams... he may still be teachable.

 

[Chaplin]

I wonder where Eric is? I'd love to hear his take on the whole trade.

(For those of you who don't know, that's elindholm)

 

[Joe Mama]

I wonder where Eric is? I'd love to hear his take on the whole trade.

(For those of you who don't know, that's elindholm)

Eric is on vacation. Originally he did not want to match the offer for JJ.

Joe Mama

 

[Chaplin]

Eric is on vacation. Originally he did not want to match the offer for JJ.

Joe Mama

Didn't know he was on vacation--did know he didn't want to match, but I wonder what his opinion would be on the trade itself?

 

[Joe Mama]

Didn't know he was on vacation--did know he didn't want to match, but I wonder what his opinion would be on the trade itself?

at face value this trade sucks.. However, you have to remember that Atlanta is already paying out the butt for JJ. I seriously doubt they were willing to throw in a whole lot of compensation to the Phoenix Suns to go with that.

Just so we are clear, I would have preferred that they match the offer for JJ. I do like Diaw more than most. The draft picks can be used in trades since we know the Phoenix Suns won't keep them. The trade exception is quite valuable. If they can turn those commodities into another good, helpful player this season all the while saving a ton of money the trade might not look so bad in the future.

Joe Mama

 

[Mainstreet]

I tired of hearing about JJ already, but this discussion is quite addictive.

The bottom line is JJ or Marion had to be moved either this year or next because of future luxury tax implications. I hope most of us can agree on that.

I'm not saying the Suns handled JJ's negotiations well, but I think Sarver would have matched if the situation hadn't become nasty. And I think it did become nasty behind closed doors.

Who wanted this to even drag out another week (certainly not I)? I was sick of the situation already. Maybe JJ was even threatening to hold out for FA. Now wouldn't this have been fun to hear about all year?

All I wanted was for the Suns to get fair compensation if JJ walked. I would have liked to have gotten more but who wouldn't?

I think the Suns will use the assets given from Atlanta to field a nice team... Championships are never guaranteed and this team sorely needed depth. Also I'm really glad now the Suns kept Marion instead of JJ.

 

[Joe Mama]

I'm not saying the Suns handled JJ's negotiations well, but I think Sarver would have matched if the situation hadn't become nasty. And I think it did become nasty behind closed doors.

I don't think the situation ever became nasty. I think Silver used this as an excuse not to match the offer because he did not want to pay JJ the $70 million, especially with all of the upfront money. We can argue that point all day, but I don't believe for a second that this has anything to do with JJ's "preference" to go to Atlanta. That is merely an excuse.

Joe Mama

 

[fordronken]

I just always thought JJ didn't know how to pass out of the pick-and-roll. Maybe he wouldn't pass to Amare, or maybe he's just not that great at passing. I guess we can ask Kevin Willis next year.

 

[Mainstreet]

I don't think the situation ever became nasty. I think Silver used this as an excuse not to match the offer because he did not want to pay JJ the $70 million, especially with all of the upfront money. We can argue that point all day, but I don't believe for a second that this has anything to do with JJ's "preference" to go to Atlanta. That is merely an excuse.

Joe Mama

Joe, you may be right but I don't think the fans will ever know for sure. I wanted to believe JJ's comments about wanting to go to Atlanta were contrived by the media as well as JJ telling Sarver not to match.

However, it apparently was all true. I know if I'm an owner, I wouldn't pay 70 million dollars to a player who wants to call the shots and is dumb enough to want to go to Atlanta (to become the man, a PG no less). I think Sarver would have matched JJ whether he wanted to or not because of pressure by the fans and media.

All JJ had to do was keep his mouth shut and let his agent do the talking.

JJ's public comments made me think things were starting to get nasty. Comments made behind closed doors are usually worse. And now I'm beginning to think JJ might not be the sharpest knife in the drawer and he might have even started threatening FA during the coming week (if the Suns did not do a sign and trade).

I say good riddance and I'm glad the Suns cut their losses by getting something in return.

JJ reminds me alot of A. McDyess.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

This raises one very, very big issue to the fans of the Phoenix Suns. This means that we have been repeatedly lied to. We were told that they were going to keep the core together. It has been said for months that resigning JJ was the #1 priority. We were told as late as last week that the Suns had every intention of re-signing JJ, of matching any offer. It appears that this was not true all along. That Sarver had no intention of matching the offer. We've been had.

________________________________________________________

One other thing. Chris Saunders has made the point that everyone should no that they have to pass the ball to Amare at all costs. Yes, Amare is our go-to guy, our superstar, but we are also in the process of creating a monster right now. Amare is being turned into a prima donna that has absolute control over this team. Want KT, Amare, bye-bye Q. Had a fight with JJ - see ya, Joe. His ego is already very large, and if we are not careful it is this line of thinking that will turn Amare into the type of egomaniac superstar that we all hate....see Bryant, Kobe. It is my firm opinion that every player on the team matters, and while there are stars, if you allow them to run the team and dictate every whim (like KG punching a rookie in the face with little provocation - and then the team doesn't sign the little guy's contract) it makes for an ugly situation. I don't want this to be AMARE'S TEAM - I want it to be the Phoenix Suns, a team that happens to star Amare Stoudemire.

your point about the suns lying is spot on. it troubles me greatly. i think the organization is becoming a bit two-faced. now changing your mind is one thing, i don't mind that (see marbury sitch), but flat out knowing your course and lying about it? that's crappy.

as for the second thought - get over it. it's the way things are in the nba. and really, have been for a long time. do you think jordan had anyone on his squad he didn't approve? what about isiah? nope. those guys were gms, just not as publicized as are the prima donnas of today.

 

[coloradosun]

JJ reminds me alot of A. McDyess.

This is deja vu all over again, the Nuggets had made a lot of promises to Dice as well. He even settled for less money to return to a place he thought he would be more "comfortable" and would be more prominent than Kidd. I am still confused about the "especially Nash" statement.

We all know how that ended up for McDyess, it may deja vu all over again for Johnson. I have some suspicion that his injury in the playoffs may make him more timid going to the hoop and if he gets hit there again there may be long term consequences, who knows what will happen. Injuries are the intangibles.

 

[Devision]

I remember alot of people mentioning how it seemed that JJ would never pass to Amare in the post. I dont' remember who it was, but I remember that.

I was one, I think JJ is a decent defender and a OK ball handler. He can create his own shot but I think lack basketball IQ. I would not want him as a PG. It will be a disaster in ATL if thats what they do. The guy is money from 3 when open and that is the sole thing that I am worried about. Whois is going to spread the court when our best shooter is Nash?

 

[jed]

"Joe, you may be right but I don't think the fans will ever know for sure."

It doesn't matter. We had the power. We could have matched. We chose not to. Being as matching was by far the smartest decision among all options, we know all we need to about the situation.

 

[coloradosun]

I was one, I think JJ is a decent defender and a OK ball handler. He can create his own shot but I think lack basketball IQ. I would not want him as a PG. It will be a disaster in ATL if thats what they do. The guy is money from 3 when open and that is the sole thing that I am worried about. Whois is going to spread the court when our best shooter is Nash?

We have got to sign Wesley Person, he shot 48% from 3pt last season. Vet min. I actually think he would be a better acquistion that Finley at this point.

 

[Chaplin]

We have got to sign Wesley Person, he shot 48% from 3pt last season. Vet min.

Please, he'll need a walker to get down the floor with us. We're not going to abandon running, you know. We need a spotup shooter, yes, but we need a spotup shooter that can actually get into position within 3 seconds--Person can't do that.

 

[mribnik]

After reading everything, I'll post my reply.

I'll echo some statements made earlier in that it just isn't feasible to have 4 max players. It's not just that it's a ton of money, it's that it isn't the best way to build a team, IMO. So in that respect alone, I like the idea of getting rid of one of our "stars" (JJ) and replacing him with 2 solid players.

Depth and defense killed us against the spurs. We were still able to beat a solid Mavericks team without JJ and Bell could've replaced Q IMO. If we had KT, it would've been easier as well. Even without JJ for most of the Spurs series, we were close all but one of the games until the very end. We needed more depth and more defense (mostly defense in the form of defensive rebounding) which we added with KT. I really like the signing of bell and the addition of KT. Now, with the trade exception we have more money to find solid bench guys and Boris Diaw is another guy who can and will contribute. He doesn't have to be a star or a great player, just a solid contributer. That's what this team needs, more contributers.

I like our team and think we'll be fine. The whole idea of losing JJ for Diaw and two protected firsts sucks, but it's better than losing JJ for nothing and I think long term it could help us. We don't need 5 potential all-stars in the starting lineup. 3 all-stars and solid role players is fine, and perhaps preferred, IMO.

I'm excited to see what we do with the exception!

 

[coloradosun]

Please, he'll need a walker to get down the floor with us. We're not going to abandon running, you know. We need a spotup shooter, yes, but we need a spotup shooter that can actually get into position within 3 seconds--Person can't do that.

I saw a lot of Nuggets games last year where he was deadly and they are not a half court offense. He is not a long term solution but a damn good bandaid.

 

[VinceBlack]

Let's be honest. As much as JJ would have helped the team this year and our championship run, he was not worth what we were going to have to pay him. It would have created major headaches in a short period of time.

All I can keep thinking about is the regular season San Antonio game in Phoenix and how Manu smoked JJ every play down the floor to win SA the game. I then determined that JJ isn't a great on the ball defender. Not quick enough.