Dallas vs Spurs

[AzStevenCal]

There's a difference between carrying a team and simply making the right basketball decisions. Making stupid, grade-school mistakes and missing point blank, uncontested shots in crunch time is on him, and consistently so.

With all the contact they were allowing in that game you're going to fault him because the refs decided to treat him differently? Hill has learned from Manu to flare out his elbow when a player closes out on him and the refs fell for it - but sure, crucify Dirk for it. Also, do you want to count the big shots he's made through his career or should we just focus on the misses?

Who else is in the class with Kobe and LeBron? Nobody? Okay, then. Every year I hear "Nowitzki should be considered for MVP". I think it's pretty well recognized, or at least debated that Nowitzki is a top ten player. In that way, you'd expect him to come through wouldn't you?

He has come through on many occasions. What about the horrible play of JKidd and Jason Terry? How about Butler being great one game and disappearing in others? How about the frequently lame play of their other big guys? And what about the inexplicable rotation decisions by Carlisle? Also, how about the incredible job San Antonio does in the playoffs? All of these and more played into this series outcome. I'd be way down the list before it would even cross my mind to mention Dirk negatively.

Steve

 

[Lorenzo]

With all the contact they were allowing in that game you're going to fault him because the refs decided to treat him differently? Hill has learned from Manu to flare out his elbow when a player closes out on him and the refs fell for it - but sure, crucify Dirk for it. Also, do you want to count the big shots he's made through his career or should we just focus on the misses?



He has come through on many occasions. What about the horrible play of JKidd and Jason Terry? How about Butler being great one game and disappearing in others? How about the frequently lame play of their other big guys? And what about the inexplicable rotation decisions by Carlisle? Also, how about the incredible job San Antonio does in the playoffs? All of these and more played into this series outcome. I'd be way down the list before it would even cross my mind to mention Dirk negatively.

Steve

good ensight steve. at least you can observe quality basketball and give a knowledgeable opinion. Dirk has carried the mavs on his shoulders since nash left. I think most people can easily see that with nash on his team he was mostly a jumpshooter that could drive to the basket. since nash left he developed a one on one(sometimes even when doubled)post game that no one else in the league can touch aside from maybe kobe, melo, and a couple of others. he's not going to make every shot, but man he has closed so many games for the mavs over the years with clutch contested shots and freethrows down the strech in both the regular season and the playoffs. I've gone to a couple of games where he did it at the palace. his playoff numbers are elevated over most other players in the league and are stronger than his regular season numbers. outside of winning a title, there's nothing else he hasn't done. I think in 2006 he had a great supporting cast and they were a versatile team that played defense, halfcourt, and could run. This team does not have guards that excel in the halfcourt set. If he can get similiar type of players around him he might have a shot, if not he will always have this cloud over his head and it is most unfortunate.

It's funny lebron hasn't won a ring yet....neither has melo....and kobe has only won them with great supporting casts. I remember vividly when kobe didn't have a great supporting cast/coaching...he was losing in the first round as an 8th seed. yet dirk is never looked at as a guy who is a elite closer. he is often looked at as a failure by guys like weber and other nba players and that's sad considering how unique of a player dirk is.

 

[Cheesewater]

With all the contact they were allowing in that game you're going to fault him because the refs decided to treat him differently? Hill has learned from Manu to flare out his elbow when a player closes out on him and the refs fell for it - but sure, crucify Dirk for it. Also, do you want to count the big shots he's made through his career or should we just focus on the misses?

He shouldn't have put himself in those positions. Did you even see the fouls? Why is he reaching in the open court? An absolute brain fart, and more than once. It's not like he was trying to make a good defensive play and got the short end of a questionable call. They were stupid decisions in a very important game.

He has come through on many occasions. What about the horrible play of JKidd and Jason Terry? How about Butler being great one game and disappearing in others? How about the frequently lame play of their other big guys? And what about the inexplicable rotation decisions by Carlisle? Also, how about the incredible job San Antonio does in the playoffs? All of these and more played into this series outcome. I'd be way down the list before it would even cross my mind to mention Dirk negatively.

I'm talking about the last few games of this series, so you can have your "many occasions". What about their horrible play? All that stuff may well be considered. If I wanted to point that stuff out, I would have addressed it. All I did was call out Nowitzki. I didn't blame him solely for the Mavericks' downfall. I just said he doesn't get a pass. Isn't he Dallas' best player? Shouldn't you count on him?

 

[Lorenzo]

He shouldn't have put himself in those positions. Did you even see the fouls? Why is he reaching in the open court? An absolute brain fart, and more than once. It's not like he was trying to make a good defensive play and got the short end of a questionable call. They were stupid decisions in a very important game.



I'm talking about the last few games of this series, so you can have your "many occasions". What about their horrible play? All that stuff may well be considered. If I wanted to point that stuff out, I would have addressed it. All I did was call out Nowitzki. I didn't blame him solely for the Mavericks' downfall. I just said he doesn't get a pass. Isn't he Dallas' best player? Shouldn't you count on him?

the foul was stupid...i agree. given the circumstances I can't blame him too much. his team was in a major hole...but that wasn't what caused him to lose the game. He reached out for the ball and hill did a great job of getting the contact. But dirk should have just let him go given that he had 3 fouls. The foul actually opened the game up for beabouis to come in so it actually helped dallas. if dirk stays on the court rick does not call on roddy there. that's a fact. roddy, butler, and dirk were the only reason the mavs had legit comeback attempt.

Dirk is the mavs best player...so he is going to take the blame. He doesn't get a pass. I think you are missing the point a little. What people are simply saying is that he played above average and typically always has in the playoffs. Same thing last year in Denver. The guy was averaging 36 points in the series and had a couple of 40 point games. All of that while going through a bitter scandal with his girlfriend who was in jail. Rather than pointing out what dirk did well. People like weber wanted to jab him for being soft and giving denver credit for their defense.

So yes he doesn't get a pass. But it's hard to bash a guy who does everything he possibly can on his end to help his team win. He needs help. In 2006 when the went to the finals he averaged 28-12 a game, but had help from his mates. that's a major difference.

 

[Cheesewater]

Dirk is the mavs best player...so he is going to take the blame. He doesn't get a pass. I think you are missing the point a little.

That WAS my point. He shouldn't get a pass. In fact, that's exactly what I said in the post. Then I was taken to task for calling him out. Well it turns out you agree. Maybe you should consider taking back this subtle jab, no?:

good ensight steve. at least you can observe quality basketball and give a knowledgeable opinion.

And you are not seriously saying the foul that basically benched Dallas' best player HELPED the Mavericks. Did the Mavericks win? No.

 

[Suns_fan69]

So does Dirk pull the reset button and opt out?

I think that would throw a HUGE wrench into the offseason for everyone.

 

[slinslin]

So does Dirk pull the reset button and opt out?

I think that would throw a HUGE wrench into the offseason for everyone.

I could see us trying to sign him if we aren't keeping Amare.

 

[Suns_fan69]

I could see us trying to sign him if we aren't keeping Amare.

I'm not sure how I feel about that. I guess it depends on the price. Out of curiosity, can both teams pull a sign and trade with each other? Not advocating that's what we should do but I don't recall that ever happening.

 

[Cheesewater]

I could see us trying to sign him if we aren't keeping Amare.

That would be a step backward. We need MORE defense, not less. And Amar'e seems to really be improving in that area, little by little.

 

[elindholm]

So does Dirk pull the reset button and opt out?

I think he has to consider it. Kidd is done, Marion is done, Terry is close to done, Butler is soft, Haywood is a role player, and the list of appealing young talent begins and ends with Beaubois. I respect Cuban for keeping the run going for as long as he did, but with the way the NBA is structured, what goes up must eventually come down.

Can the Mavs be a contender again while Nowitzki, almost 32, is still in his prime? It's hard to see how. They can peddle Dampier's contract (which has a cheap buyout), but I don't think they can flip him for an impact player. They're unlikely to get much help in the draft. The Blazers and Thunder figure to pass them next season, and they're still behind the Lakers and Spurs, at a minimum.

If the Suns knock off the Spurs and throw a scare into the Lakers, I could imagine Nowitzki coming to Phoenix for the MLE. He has plenty of money, he misses Nash, and a C/PF rotation of Lopez/Stoudemire/Nowitzki would be unlike anything the league has ever seen. If he gets to the point of considering a massive paycut in exchange for enjoying the back half of his career, it would be a pretty good arrangement.

 

[cly2tw]

I'm not sure how I feel about that. I guess it depends on the price. Out of curiosity, can both teams pull a sign and trade with each other? Not advocating that's what we should do but I don't recall that ever happening.

Four parties are needed to agree on such a deal. Why would Amare want to do that? Just to be reunited with Marion? He'd go to Miami or Nets before agreeing to such a trade.

 

[AzStevenCal]

That WAS my point. He shouldn't get a pass. In fact, that's exactly what I said in the post. Then I was taken to task for calling him out.

I'm sorry if I came across a little strong in my posts but although I was responding to your post I was partially reacting to the Webber comments. I am not a Dirk fan but in the overall scheme of things I believe he plays up to the moment not down and yet he never catches a break from the talking heads.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

I think he has to consider it. Kidd is done, Marion is done, Terry is close to done, Butler is soft, Haywood is a role player, and the list of appealing young talent begins and ends with Beaubois. I respect Cuban for keeping the run going for as long as he did, but with the way the NBA is structured, what goes up must eventually come down.

Yeah, but we look near the end of our run also and Dallas has two huge advantages for Dirk (and anyone for that matter). The first is they have Mark Cuban as their owner and the second advantage is they don't have Sarver. I don't know if the Nash factor would be enough to overcome those two items. At the MLE though it would be nice if it happened.

Steve

 

[slinslin]

If the Suns knock off the Spurs and throw a scare into the Lakers, I could imagine Nowitzki coming to Phoenix for the MLE. He has plenty of money, he misses Nash, and a C/PF rotation of Lopez/Stoudemire/Nowitzki would be unlike anything the league has ever seen. If he gets to the point of considering a massive paycut in exchange for enjoying the back half of his career, it would be a pretty good arrangement.

Pipe dream, I think we might very well be the favorite to sign Dirk if he opts out and Amare and Frye leave.

Something like 4 years starting at 15M$ is what I'd pay Dirk.

 

[elindholm]

Pipe dream, I think we might very well be the favorite to sign Dirk if he opts out and Amare and Frye leave.

In that case, I'd rather have Bosh.

 

[AzStevenCal]

In that case, I'd rather have Bosh.

At this stage of their careers I'd definitely rather have Bosh than Dirk. However, if we lose Amare I'd rather we clean house and just start the rebuilding process. Hang on to our above average young pieces and find a way to add a couple of young stars to the core. It will mean a few down years but I think the writing is on the wall.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

However, if we lose Amare I'd rather we clean house and just start the rebuilding process. Hang on to our above average young pieces and find a way to add a couple of young stars to the core.

You don't consider Bosh a "young star"? He's only 26.

 

[AzStevenCal]

You don't consider Bosh a "young star"? He's only 26.

Sure, he's a young star but IMO he's a half notch below Amare and if Stat leaves it doesn't seem worth it to me to try and be almost as good as we are now. I'd rather pay the inevitable price now than limp along for a few more years and then pay a perhaps even greater price. Sarver is not going to add major players in addition to Bosh so why bother?

Steve

 

[elindholm]

Sure, he's a young star but IMO he's a half notch below Amare and if Stat leaves it doesn't seem worth it to me to try and be almost as good as we are now.

To me it's more like a quarter notch, but I agree it would be a step backward.

I'd rather pay the inevitable price now than limp along for a few more years and then pay a perhaps even greater price.

But to what aim? What's the other plan for getting a top-ten player? Through the draft? The Suns wouldn't be one of the worst teams in the league even if Stoudemire left for nothing, and the Suns don't draft well anyway. I don't think it's realistic to count on getting a better talent than Bosh any time soon.

Sarver is not going to add major players in addition to Bosh so why bother?

I have to admit, Kerr has somewhat convinced me that he's capable of improving the team even within Sarver's restrictions. The Suns' financial situation next season really isn't so bad, now that they've cleared out the Marion/O'Neal dead weight.

 

[AzStevenCal]

To me it's more like a quarter notch, but I agree it would be a step backward.

I'd be willing to split the difference and call it a three-eighths notch. You're right, there's not a huge gap between the two and I could even see Bosh being an improvement in some situations but I don't think he has it in him to carry a team like Amare does.

But to what aim? What's the other plan for getting a top-ten player? Through the draft? The Suns wouldn't be one of the worst teams in the league even if Stoudemire left for nothing, and the Suns don't draft well anyway. I don't think it's realistic to count on getting a better talent than Bosh any time soon.

Well, actually, I think we would be one of the worst teams if we moved the (older) pieces that still have value. I'm not convinced the Suns won't draft well and by moving Nash and Richardson in addition to an Amare sign and trade we could end up with some decent picks.

I have to admit, Kerr has somewhat convinced me that he's capable of improving the team even within Sarver's restrictions. The Suns' financial situation next season really isn't so bad, now that they've cleared out the Marion/O'Neal dead weight.

I think Sarver wants this team to be successful and to a point he will spend the money to make it so. However, I don't believe he has the fiscal flexibility to compete on the free agent market for the better players. But even if he were willing to spend the money to get Bosh it would likely be the only major move he'd make for several years and I just don't see how that puts us in the realm of contender.

We've likely seen the best of Nash, Hill and even Jason so simply replacing Amare does very little for me. I think our remaining core would be nice to build around but they are all nice complementary pieces with no star in sight. If we try to keep this team intact (with an Amare replacement) we'll be just good enough to insure that we never get a decent chance at finding a true cornerstone. I know that teams fail more often through the draft then they succeed but with our financial restrictions I see no other viable option.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

To me, the "tank for the draft" strategy makes sense only in desperation. It's like putting all the money in your wallet on one roulette number, because it's the only hope you have of paying your bills.

Of recent teams who have tried to get into a position to draft a franchise player, only Cleveland has had success. Others have either lucked out in the draft itself (Wade at #5) or won the lottery as relative underdogs (Orlando with Howard, Seattle with Durant). I regard tanking as an even lower-percentage play than rebuilding through mediocre talent and constricted finances.

 

[Lorenzo]

That WAS my point. He shouldn't get a pass. In fact, that's exactly what I said in the post. Then I was taken to task for calling him out. Well it turns out you agree. Maybe you should consider taking back this subtle jab, no?:



And you are not seriously saying the foul that basically benched Dallas' best player HELPED the Mavericks. Did the Mavericks win? No.

My bad I should have been more clear....and take that back. I agree with both you and steve in a way...moreso steve....but you have a point in the fact that the star player on the team does not deserve a pass. My point where I agree with steve is that dirk has more than pulled his weight for the mavs. He can't do it all alone and doesn't deserved to be bashed when his scoring is above average while facing a variety of doubles. I guess you can question a leader that falls short for his toughness or whatever else...maybe dirk should have just come right out and said it like melo in his conference(i need help) rather than praising his opponent and not throwing his own guys under the bus.

The foul didn't help, but when dirk went to the bench roddy B started taking control of the game and started the comeback. when dirk went to the bench they were down 21. From that point on they got themselves back in the game so dirk fouling didn't hurt or help in reality.

 

[AzStevenCal]

To me, the "tank for the draft" strategy makes sense only in desperation. It's like putting all the money in your wallet on one roulette number, because it's the only hope you have of paying your bills.

Of recent teams who have tried to get into a position to draft a franchise player, only Cleveland has had success. Others have either lucked out in the draft itself (Wade at #5) or won the lottery as relative underdogs (Orlando with Howard, Seattle with Durant). I regard tanking as an even lower-percentage play than rebuilding through mediocre talent and constricted finances.

I don't really think I'm suggesting "tank for the draft". I want us to put forth the best team we can with an eye towards rebuilding into a contender. For teams with limited resources that pretty much has to involve the draft.

I doubt we could sign someone of Bosh's caliber but if we could we'd almost certainly have to hang onto Nash and Richardson to do so. That team would be neither fish nor fowl. Again, I see no advantage of putting together a team whose ceiling is likely to be less than the current team and would have a fairly short shelf life on top of that.

Replacing Amare with Bosh isn't a horrible option but I'd prefer to move Nash and Richardson while they still have value for what they can do on the court rather than waiting until they are just moveable contracts. We gave away so many draft picks the past several years that we have a more empty cupboard than we should and I think it's time to restock it.

Steve

 

[Lorenzo]

I think he has to consider it. Kidd is done, Marion is done, Terry is close to done, Butler is soft, Haywood is a role player, and the list of appealing young talent begins and ends with Beaubois. I respect Cuban for keeping the run going for as long as he did, but with the way the NBA is structured, what goes up must eventually come down.

Can the Mavs be a contender again while Nowitzki, almost 32, is still in his prime? It's hard to see how. They can peddle Dampier's contract (which has a cheap buyout), but I don't think they can flip him for an impact player. They're unlikely to get much help in the draft. The Blazers and Thunder figure to pass them next season, and they're still behind the Lakers and Spurs, at a minimum.

If the Suns knock off the Spurs and throw a scare into the Lakers, I could imagine Nowitzki coming to Phoenix for the MLE. He has plenty of money, he misses Nash, and a C/PF rotation of Lopez/Stoudemire/Nowitzki would be unlike anything the league has ever seen. If he gets to the point of considering a massive paycut in exchange for enjoying the back half of his career, it would be a pretty good arrangement.

You would have to be pretty stupid to play for the MLE when you have 20 million in front of you. That will not happen with a player of his caliber unless dirk plays well beyond his prime. Even if he doesn't stay in dallas someone else will pay him more than the MLE....perhaps a team like miami who's looking to put a guy like dirk or amare alongside dwade. there's also other teams like dallas and many others who I'm sure are ready to put a big time player next to dirk(or their star player) for their own right.

Phoenix has nash...the only tie to dirk. Dirk and Amare would be tough to keep on the same team with nash....but it would make a dangerous team. Amare and dirk are both different players on many levels, but are just as effective at what they do which is get the ball in the hoop. dirk is a much better shooter/post up player. Amare is a much better finisher above the rim. Dirk is a better iso player. Dirk is older than most guys in the league so that makes it tough for him to be more valuable long term at this point.

At the end of the day I think this is dirk's way of telling management...give me a contract extension and get me more help...without flatout saying it. Remember even kobe asked for a trade under similiar circumstances in LA.....the mavs will give dirk a contract extension at the end of the day.

 

[elindholm]

I doubt we could sign someone of Bosh's caliber but if we could we'd almost certainly have to hang onto Nash and Richardson to do so. That team would be neither fish nor fowl.

I think you're underestimating how quickly eras come and go in the NBA. I can pretty much guarantee that the Suns team of 2014-15 will barely resemble this year's squad. Grant Hill is in his third year in Phoenix, and he's the fourth-longest tenured Sun on the roster. That's how quickly things turn over.

Replacing Amare with Bosh isn't a horrible option but I'd prefer to move Nash and Richardson while they still have value for what they can do on the court rather than waiting until they are just moveable contracts.

Next year, Richardson is both a value player and a good contract. If the Suns want to make a major move, he's the mark. And Nash has only two years left after this one, so it's not like the Suns would be stuck for him for long, even if they do hold onto him as his skills decline. He was pretty lousy against Portland, but has had a big hand in the team's success this year. I wouldn't put him out to pasture just yet.

We gave away so many draft picks the past several years that we have a more empty cupboard than we should and I think it's time to restock it.

Sure, but no one's going to give up major young talent or a potential high draft pick for Nash. It's just not going to happen. You want to talk about trading Richardson if Stoudemire leaves, sure, a case can definitely be made for that.