This is good. Would you start a new thread with this question?
D'Antoni Says Suns Were a Good Defensive Team
- Thread starter Covert Rain
- Start date
This is good. Would you start a new thread with this question?
Chaplin
Better off silent
Huh? What does that have to do with anything? The Suns defense has never been any good, but that's more a reflection of a) the coaching at the time and b) the personnel on the team. You make it sound like if a player is Phoenix Sun, you don't have to play defense. That is the mantra D'Antoni installed over the past 4 years (and Frank Johnson before that, and Danny Ainge before that, etc).
Your two sentences totally contradict each other. You are essentially placing blame on those coaches before D'Antoni and then lecture other fans for maybe doing the exact same thing in 10 years.
Ouchie-Z-Clown
I'm better than Mulli!
i suck at doing polls. if anyone else wants to do it they have license to use my concept.
nashman
ASFN Icon
For the record I think all of those are factors in why we have no championship. Dantoni had his flaws but he also made us a contender every year he was here like it or not, and now well we may be done for awhile.
When the Suns had good defenders (prior to this season), they actually played decent defense. As has been rehashed many times to the chagrin of the ill informed, PPG is an illusion when you look at points per possession. The Caveliers that would milk the clock to 22 and then try to score weren't a great defensive team because they kept every score below 80.
However, the main problem with D'Antoni's run and fun system is that you give up more than your fair share of offensive rebounds. The 1,2, and 3 are always racing back trying to beat their defender for an easy hoop. This can be covered up if your 4 and 5 are strong rebounders, but that will never be the case with Amare/Diaw as part of that combination.
Ouchie-Z-Clown
I'm better than Mulli!
i think we are done now for a while, whether dantoni stayed or left. the only thing that could change that would be one of three things:
1. the 15th pick is phenom that comes outta nowhere to make a difference - very low chance of that.
2. the coach we hire ends up being a championship-caliber coach with the ability to lift a good/great team to the next level - this is a crapshoot as none of us know who fits this description, and really won't until someone proves themselves - i don't retreads (collins, silas, etc.) have the quality.
3. some blockbuster trade occurs that none of us see coming - this has the lowest chance of happening imo.
My vote is C.
During each of our losses to San Antonio, we have had key players under perform in the face of the Spurs defense. How many missed layups from Barbosa? How many missed open 3s from Marion (or how many missed opportunities to drive). Poor defense and rebounding from Amare. Overdribbling and turnovers by Nash.
When your key guys don't step up, you lose. It's pretty simple.
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2005
- Posts
- 46,214
- Reaction score
- 11,795
I'll go with E/F.
everything..
everything..
Last edited:
FArting
Lopes Up!
I'll go with A.
I tend to agree, although I think D'Antoni's style gets in the way when attack really dood defensive teams. Great defense is about taking away what an opponent wants to do and forces them to make adjustments. It took D'Antoni too long to make any serious adjustments.
How many years have the refs let Bowen foul Nash continually? Yet they go into every series trying to run the same unstructured/Nash dependent half court offense over and over. The Spurs always know what is coming - always.
As the series went on Bell started moving without the ball, rather than just standing around waiting for the ball. Barbosa never moved without the ball and was never open.
The Suns have a couple of very good passing big men in Diaw and Shaq, but still rarely used cutters - tactic that seems to work for the Hornets.
Barbosa kept trying to shoot over Duncan on drives rather than making dump passes to whoever Duncan was guarding. Yes, it's Barbosa's fault but why wasn't he being coached on interior passing?
If nothing else, the unwillingness of the coaching staff to make adjustments can have a psychological impact on the players. When the other team is making a run, adjustments can give the players hope that the bleeding will stop. Going back to the huddle and being told that the anwer is just to try harder gets old.
So while missing shots they should take are the fault of the players, bhe coaching staff is not blameless.
mojorizen7
ASFN Addict
Great debate although i can't help be frustrated over what some posters feel qualifies the SUNS as NOT being a poor defensive team.
You can look at PPG,FG%, point differential,blocks,steals,turnovers etc... but i would simply ask some of you to watch the teams still playing(although i'm sure you are) and just watch.
To my knowledge there is no statistic for difficulty of opponents shot attempts. You've just got to observe what a consistently good to great defensive team does that doesn't show up in boxscore's and team numbers.
Things like rotation,getting a hand up,moving your feet,double-teaming,trapping,playing with intensity etc...
Teams consistently get easy layups and open shots against D'Antoni's "good defense."
I can't argue this so-called "misconception" that the SUNS have been a good defensive team over the last 4 years anymore.
It simply isn't true.
Wow.
You can look at PPG,FG%, point differential,blocks,steals,turnovers etc... but i would simply ask some of you to watch the teams still playing(although i'm sure you are) and just watch.
To my knowledge there is no statistic for difficulty of opponents shot attempts. You've just got to observe what a consistently good to great defensive team does that doesn't show up in boxscore's and team numbers.
Things like rotation,getting a hand up,moving your feet,double-teaming,trapping,playing with intensity etc...
Teams consistently get easy layups and open shots against D'Antoni's "good defense."
I can't argue this so-called "misconception" that the SUNS have been a good defensive team over the last 4 years anymore.
It simply isn't true.
Wow.
BC867
Long time Phoenician!
Team stats don't necessarily equate to good defense.
The Suns won many games during the season by playing excellent defense in a short spurt late in the game. The Charles Barkley syndrome.
If they could do it some of the time, why not on a steady basis? Perhaps because of D'Antoni's short bench.
The 7 or 8 in the rotation had no choice but to pace themselves. And defense is what you'd expect to suffer.
Things are often more inter-related than you might see on the surface.
The Suns won many games during the season by playing excellent defense in a short spurt late in the game. The Charles Barkley syndrome.
If they could do it some of the time, why not on a steady basis? Perhaps because of D'Antoni's short bench.
The 7 or 8 in the rotation had no choice but to pace themselves. And defense is what you'd expect to suffer.
Things are often more inter-related than you might see on the surface.
Agree 100%
Missed shots, getting outhustled, out rebounded, playing tough D, it is all connected. I used to watch Shawn Marion take plays off. He was pacing himself. D'antoni should have taken some players out just to rest them and let them know he was watching their effort level on both ends of the court.
I wouldn't expect anyone to say "Take me out coach, I just went 100% and I'm tired now." Instead, they conserve their energy so they can play longer, and where would they be able to conserve their energy while playing in a game?
d e f e n s e
IMHO, Mike had a blind spot when it came to using his bench. Most teams have (or try to have) an "energy" inside guy to juice the team when things bog down. That's not really Diaw's personality and while Skinner could, he completely fell out of the rotation after Shaq came back.
After Marion was traded, there was no one on the team that could fill his role. Hill did a good job, but hasn't had Marion's athleticism in a decade.
When I read draft profiles, one of the things I focus on is how hard the guy plays. If starters get tired, I want guys off the bench that will juice the team up and not take five minutes to "get the feel of the game".
nowagimp
Registered User
What bench? Even JVG laughed at that criticism. The suns bench has stunk for years, and it got worse this year with the departures of KT, JR. I'd take JR over pike, marks, DJ, tucker, skinner, banks. Saying DA doesnt play the bench has a cause and effect relation which alot of posters ignore. If Giricek wasnt getting playing time, thats a problem, but DJ "cant hit an open 15 footer" strawberry, are you kidding? "Lost out there after 12 years a pro" skinner, are you serious? The suns probably had the worst bench in the playoffs. So when teams go harder in the playoffs, yeah, the bench is a problem.
the hornets are not considered to be deep on the bench but
pargo,wells,Ely, James,Julian Wright, armstrong
versus
barbs, pike, DJ, Marks, Diaw,
Whether DA in his one year of semi GM is entirely responsible for the bench over the last 4 years is laughable. Why is it that this year the suns have so few usable 3pt shooters? Is that what DA wanted? How does that work with an offense designed to spread the floor?
It is a real chicken/egg thing. Was Mike simply saying that he had absolutely no bench and that's why he would never play them, or was it really hard to sign useful free agents if they knew that Mike would play only 8 (and often only 7) guys not matter what.
Yes money was a recurring issue, but money wasn't the reason that they did not re-sign Eddie House. Nor was it why they signed Marks and did not make a run at Brandon Bass (who was cheaper). Why would Bass want to join a team that wouldn't consider using him?
Yes money was a recurring issue, but money wasn't the reason that they did not re-sign Eddie House. Nor was it why they signed Marks and did not make a run at Brandon Bass (who was cheaper). Why would Bass want to join a team that wouldn't consider using him?
Defense is relative.
You can be a defensive team and win every game in the high 80's if that's the kind of game you want to see every night.
You don't expect the suns to score in the 110's and blow out teams every night. You don't want to see bench warmers to play in the 4th quarter every game.
Sometimes you have let the other team catch up with you to get them to play up-tempo style.
The reason why the Suns could not advance is because of injuries and the Spurs dirty play and Tim Duncans star player treatment.
Do you realy want to win an NBA title Spurs Style?
You can be a defensive team and win every game in the high 80's if that's the kind of game you want to see every night.
You don't expect the suns to score in the 110's and blow out teams every night. You don't want to see bench warmers to play in the 4th quarter every game.
Sometimes you have let the other team catch up with you to get them to play up-tempo style.
The reason why the Suns could not advance is because of injuries and the Spurs dirty play and Tim Duncans star player treatment.
Do you realy want to win an NBA title Spurs Style?
nowagimp
Registered User
You could ask why steve Kerr wouldnt get anyone for the bench? You could ask why would Bass want to backup amare, marion, and diaw, 2 all stars and a NBA MIP with big contracts. What kind of PT could he get there with any coach? You could ask why the suns would sign a 36 year old injury prone grant hill and deplete the wing position by dumping JR and trading marion? Alot of questions could be asked, but the suns just struggled in signing players. PJ Brown would have played more with the pre shaq suns that the celtics. PJ is logging 8 minutes a game in the playoffs, way less than DA played KT last year, 19 mins a game. Yet PJ chose the celtics. FA's avoided the suns regardless it appears. Backup PG's like Lue werent interested even though JKidd plays more minutes than Nash(less available backup time). Lue warmed up the pines in the post season this year by playing a whole 1 min per game as Jason Terry took his backup PG minutes. Im willing to bet he would have played more as a sun for DA. ASFN fans think DA is the only coach that doesnt play his bench, its really myopic and uninformed.
Ouchie-Z-Clown
I'm better than Mulli!
if that's what it ultimately takes, yes. would i be happy that we had to resort to that? no. but i'd take the championship.
I'd rather see Sun that is fun to watch reaching conferce final than seing Suns player flopping and injuring opponents. Basketball is supposed to be fun and entertaining game. And if see another Finals of Spus and Cavalier I think I am going to puke.
JVG's opinion noted. And here is my question, if it is obvious to outside coaches that the Suns bench isn't strong, would you agree that it is a weakness? Wouldn't it be to our own best interest to improve on a weakness, if we could? How could we improve on that weakness if those guys aren't playing in games to gain experience? Maybe practicing to prepare for some playing time to help the team whose ultimate goal is to win in the playoffs.
Ok D'antoni doesn't want to have long practices because he plays 7 or 8 guys long minutes in games. What about practice for the other 5 or 6 guys who really need it or do you just ignore them during the games AND light practice? Where are they supposed to show that they are improving if they are left on their own. Where is their "coaching?" D'antoni doesn't run long minutes himself during the games so he shouldn't be too tired to coach, run and drill them during practice. Ok Pike is old and on the decline athletically so has less to gain, but the others aren't.
I think it is all BS anyway D'antoni saying I don't play my starters any more than other teams, it is just that the 6th 7th and 8th guys play starter's minutes. Ok, if that is true, tell me why they can't practice if they don't play anymore minutes than other teams? I think it is just easier for him to say this so he doesn't have to work with the guys who need help the most. Convenient isn't it?
Did D'antoni do everything he could to improve the team throughout the year and make the Suns the strongest they could be going into the playoffs? My opinion is NO.
Bottomline, he didn't believe in helping these guys. With his coaching they would have been better and, therefore, the team would have been better, but HE QUIT ON THEM A LONG TIME AGO. What successful leader does that when his success depends on their success?...I'm so glad his lazy stubborn ass is gone.
Last edited:
cly2tw
Registered User
- Joined
- Oct 26, 2002
- Posts
- 5,832
- Reaction score
- 0
Why would any FA want to join the team anticipating no real chance to crack the infamous 7-men rotation? JVG has to answer this question before ridiculing Suns management for not getting a deeper bench.
