Deciding who the best player ever is

[cardsunsfan]

I know this is changing subjects but with the Suns doing so well we have a day off until hopefully the next Nuggets Thrashing.. Looking at the Suns possibly having a chance to win a championship made me think of past championships and the arguments for the best player and teams ever.

One thing I don't understand when these arguments are made is why the percentage of times a player won in the finals is so important instead of how many times they made it to the finals. Isn't it more important to make the finals as many times as possible even if you lose, then lose more times in earlier rounds but are perfect in the Finals?

It also reminds me of the same thing in the NFL, some how Montana was still often considered greater than Brady by many until Brady racked up more NFL championships when they were equal but Brady had a lost a few championships I would say most argued he was worse. The ones Brady went to and lost seemed much worse than the years Montana didn't make it to the superbowl at all.

It is almost forgotten how many times Jordan didn't make it to the finals and somehow his legacy seems like it would be more tarnished if he had made it more times to the finals and lost.

I would probably lean towards James being the best player to ever play the game. He made it to more finals than Jordan and I feel overall with a lesser cast. I don't know if Jordan would have made it to as many Finals as James if given the same supporting cast James had. If James had Scotty Pippen and some of the other players Jordan had I think he would have been better off, even with the Heat cast which was already a little older when he got there. I don't know if Jordan would have won the year the Cavaliers won it with James. I think Anthony Davis would be as important as a Pippen if Davis didn't get hurt and James was the same age as Jordan was when he was still winning championships but obviously that isn't the case.

I also think James most likely would have flourished in Jordan's area where more physical play was allowed. James is so big and strong I think he would have adapted.

Anyways just my thoughts.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I know this is changing subjects but with the Suns doing so well we have a day off until hopefully the next Nuggets Thrashing.. Looking at the Suns possibly having a chance to win a championship made me think of past championships and the arguments for the best player and teams ever.

One thing I don't understand when these arguments are made is why the percentage of times a player won in the finals is so important instead of how many times they made it to the finals. Isn't it more important to make the finals as many times as possible even if you lose, then lose more times in earlier rounds but are perfect in the Finals?

It also reminds me of the same thing in the NFL, some how Montana was still often considered greater than Brady by many until Brady racked up more NFL championships when they were equal but Brady had a lost a few championships I would say most argued he was worse. The ones Brady went to and lost seemed much worse than the years Montana didn't make it to the superbowl at all.

It is almost forgotten how many times Jordan didn't make it to the finals and somehow his legacy seems like it would be more tarnished if he had made it more times to the finals and lost.

I would probably lean towards James being the best player to ever play the game. He made it to more finals than Jordan and I feel overall with a lesser cast. I don't know if Jordan would have made it to as many Finals as James if given the same supporting cast James had. If James had Scotty Pippen and some of the other players Jordan had I think he would have been better off, even with the Heat cast which was already a little older when he got there. I don't know if Jordan would have won the year the Cavaliers won it with James. I think Anthony Davis would be as important as a Pippen if Davis didn't get hurt and James was the same age as Jordan was when he was still winning championships but obviously that isn't the case.

I also think James most likely would have flourished in Jordan's area where more physical play was allowed. James is so big and strong I think he would have adapted.

Anyways just my thoughts.

While I agree with your basic premise of the importance of counting win conference championships (lebrons record there is nuts) you fail to accurately address the supporting casts.

Jordan had:

pippen
Horace

pippen
Rodman

otherwise his supporting cast was minimal.

Lebron had:

wade
Bosh

kyrie
Love

Davis

in his championship runs

the bj Armstrong’s, Kerrs, Paxton’s, cartwrights, longleys of the world were no better than the KCPs, old ray allens, Harlem’s, etc that Lebron has had.

 

[jf-08]

Jordan elevated his teammates. I don't see that with LeBron.

 

[JCSunsfan]

While I agree with your basic premise of the importance of counting win conference championships (lebrons record there is nuts) you fail to accurately address the supporting casts.

Jordan had:

pippen
Horace

pippen
Rodman

otherwise his supporting cast was minimal.

Lebron had:

wade
Bosh

kyrie
Love

Davis

in his championship runs

the bj Armstrong’s, Kerrs, Paxton’s, cartwrights, longleys of the world were no better than the KCPs, old ray allens, Harlem’s, etc that Lebron has had.

I agree with all of this except the last sentence. Kerr and Cartwright were great bench players who were significantly better than the bench knuckleheads that LeBron had to deal with.

of course Longley is in a class by himself. You certainly have a point with him.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Jordan elevated his teammates. I don't see that with LeBron.

LeBron elevates his team because he is so good and commands so much attention. So his teammates look better. But the moment adversity comes something happens around LeBron and his teammates, especially the younger ones just fall apart and want out.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

The main reason why Jordan had fewer finals (other than playing less years) is that he played during a time that the East was really good. LeBron played in the East during a time that the East was really poor.

LeBron's biggest opposition was always in the Finals and that is why he only went 4 of 10 in the finals. Jordan's biggest opposition was often on the way to the finals which is why his teams made "only" 6 finals, but is also why they went 6/6 and never even faced a game 7 in the finals, but went to 7 multiple times on the way there.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I agree with all of this except the last sentence. Kerr and Cartwright were great bench players who were significantly better than the bench knuckleheads that LeBron had to deal with.

of course Longley is in a class by himself. You certainly have a point with him.

I think people’s judgment on Kerr gets clouded by hitting big shots. The most points he ever averaged per season was 8.6 and the most assists was 2.6. He shot an amazing three point percentage, but in an era that didn’t yet emphasize the shot (the most he ever attempted per game was 2.9).

as for Cartwright his highs were 12.4 pts and 6.7 rebounds in his first year with the bulls as a starter. He also shot sub .500 and all of his numbers declined every year thereafter.

they were okay guys but not materially better (if even better) than KCP, Haslam, ray allen, ilgauskas, etc.

On the other other hand. The eastern conference has been much weaker for Lebron a stay over there than was Jordan’s eastern conference which started with the bad boys and then had the knicks. Was Jordan’s eastern conference as strong as the western conference? No. But it wasn’t as full of patsies as it’s been for Lebron.

 

[95pro]

The main reason why Jordan had fewer finals (other than playing less years) is that he played during a time that the East was really good. LeBron played in the East during a time that the East was really poor.

LeBron's biggest opposition was always in the Finals and that is why he only went 4 of 10 in the finals. Jordan's biggest opposition was often on the way to the finals which is why his teams made "only" 6 finals, but is also why they went 6/6 and never even faced a game 7 in the finals, but went to 7 multiple times on the way there.

The east was awful while lebron was there too.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The main reason why Jordan had fewer finals (other than playing less years) is that he played during a time that the East was really good. LeBron played in the East during a time that the East was really poor.

LeBron's biggest opposition was always in the Finals and that is why he only went 4 of 10 in the finals. Jordan's biggest opposition was often on the way to the finals which is why his teams made "only" 6 finals, but is also why they went 6/6 and never even faced a game 7 in the finals, but went to 7 multiple times on the way there.

He also took two years off. There’s a hood chance he makes the finals those two years and wins one, maybe likely both.

 

[95pro]

He also took two years off. There’s a hood chance he makes the finals those two years and wins one, maybe likely both.

In one of those years I think he came back towards the end of the season but they missed the finals and got bounced by the magic?

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

In one of those years I think he came back towards the end of the season but they missed the finals and got bounced by the magic?

Correct. But I don’t know anyone that counts that considering how late Jordan returned.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

He also took two years off. There’s a hood chance he makes the finals those two years and wins one, maybe likely both.

And retired for the 2nd time right after winning a title. The Bulls probably could have run that back at least 1 more time as well.

 

[Finito]

Young Jordan also had to fight through the Bird Celtics and the Isiah Pistons

The Paul George Pacers ain’t stopping Jordan from getting to the finals. Lebron had a flat out cake walk most years in the East

 

[95pro]

From what i see, the younger generation thinks Lebron is the goat. But they never saw MJ play. Growing up i had basic cable from NM, and one of their main channels was WGN. I grew up watching the bulls games.

No one counts how many times they've been to the championship game, but people count the amount of times you've won it.

Jordan and Pippen were products of the Bulls. LeBron had to teamup and/or recruit to make a champion ship team.

Jordan played in a tough era. Lebron flops and fakes fouls.

Those are my main points in why Jordan is the goat.

Lebron's crying, manipulation/tampering, flopping and inability to accept responsibility is what kills his legacy.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

From what i see, the younger generation thinks Lebron is the goat. But they never saw MJ play. Growing up i had basic cable from NM, and one of their main channels was WGN. I grew up watching the bulls games.

No one counts how many times they've been to the championship game, but people count the amount of times you've won it.

Jordan and Pippen were products of the Bulls. LeBron had to teamup and/or recruit to make a champion ship team.

Jordan played in a tough era. Lebron flops and fakes fouls.

Those are my main points in why Jordan is the goat.

Lebron's crying, manipulation/tampering, flopping and inability to accept responsibility is what kills his legacy.

I don’t think it “kills” it, per se. rather I think it diminishes it in comparison to Jordan.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I don’t think it “kills” it, per se. rather I think it diminishes it in comparison to Jordan.

LeBron holding a talk show special to talk about how he is the GOAT doesn't help with that either. Over the top arrogant.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

LeBron holding a talk show special to talk about how he is the GOAT doesn't help with that either. Over the top arrogant.

Whaaaaa? Did I miss that?

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Whaaaaa? Did I miss that?

Haven't seen the full thing, but I'm pretty sure that is what this clip is from.

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

Edit: Tracked down what this is from. It was an 8 episode mini series about LeBron on ESPN+ where he is talking about essentially the different chapters of his life/basketball career.

 

[cardsunsfan]

While I agree with your basic premise of the importance of counting win conference championships (lebrons record there is nuts) you fail to accurately address the supporting casts.

Jordan had:

pippen
Horace

pippen
Rodman

otherwise his supporting cast was minimal.

Lebron had:

wade
Bosh

kyrie
Love

Davis

in his championship runs

the bj Armstrong’s, Kerrs, Paxton’s, cartwrights, longleys of the world were no better than the KCPs, old ray allens, Harlem’s, etc that Lebron has had.

I still would take Pippen and the supporting cast of the Bulls.. especially Pippen due to the consistency.. If Anthony Davis was always healthy I would probably choose him as a sidekick. I never thought Love was that great and Irving was young, immature, and unpredictable.

I think Bosh and Wade we on their way down when he was with them.

I guess we'll never know for sure who would be better but I also think Lebron is really good at getting everybody involved with his excellent passing. Also, if he grew up in the Age of Jordan he would have adapted to the toughness and would be able to barrel through guys more. I think he is a victim of his generation and how flopping now works so much better. I like Jordan's personality better than Lebron and I would root for Jordan.. but I think this generation has somewhat enabled Jame's attitude.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

I still would take Pippen and the supporting cast of the Bulls.. especially Pippen due to the consistency.. If Anthony Davis was always healthy I would probably choose him as a sidekick. I never thought Love was that great and Irving was young, immature, and unpredictable.

I think Bosh and Wade we on their way down when he was with them.

I guess we'll never know for sure who would be better but I also think Lebron is really good at getting everybody involved with his excellent passing. Also, if he grew up in the Age of Jordan he would have adapted to the toughness and would be able to barrel through guys more. I think he is a victim of his generation and how flopping now works so much better. I like Jordan's personality better than Lebron and I would root for Jordan.. but I think this generation has somewhat enabled Jame's attitude.

Ummm, Wade was 29 and 1st team all NBA and Bosh was 26 and an all star the year prior to teaming up with LeBron. They were not on their way down until towards the end of LeBron's tenure with Miami. Love averaged 26/12 the season before joining LeBron. Also LeBron doesn't come close to sniffing a title last year without AD who was their best player last season to include the playoffs.

 

[95pro]

Ummm, Wade was 29 and 1st team all NBA and Bosh was 26 and an all star the year prior to teaming up with LeBron. They were not on their way down until towards the end of LeBron's tenure with Miami. Love averaged 26/12 the season before joining LeBron. Also LeBron doesn't come close to sniffing a title last year without AD who was their best player last season to include the playoffs.

They also had Ray Allen, former sniper/all-star as well.

 

[GatorAZ]

They also had Ray Allen, former sniper/all-star as well.

As well as Mike Miller, Udonis Haslem and Birdman. All really good 6-8 guys on a roster.

 

[GatorAZ]

And retired for the 2nd time right after winning a title. The Bulls probably could have run that back at least 1 more time as well.

That team was toast and lucky to get by the Jazz in 6 due to MJ’s heroics. Plus Pippen was never going to play for them again.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ummm, Wade was 29 and 1st team all NBA and Bosh was 26 and an all star the year prior to teaming up with LeBron. They were not on their way down until towards the end of LeBron's tenure with Miami. Love averaged 26/12 the season before joining LeBron. Also LeBron doesn't come close to sniffing a title last year without AD who was their best player last season to include the playoffs.

Agreed. Those weren’t realistic takes on lebrons posses. Not to mention wade had already won a championship without Lebron. Something pippen never did without mj.

 

[Hoop Head]

Its not just that MJ's record in the Finals is perfect, its that he never even allowed their opponents to force a game 7. Like the outcome was never in doubt during those finals. That's crazy, IMO. Not once could the 2nd best team in the league get 3 wins in a 7 game series against him.

Sure, winning your conference a lot is neat but no one ever talks about Jim Kelly as being the GOAT for losing 4 Super bowls in a row. He's not even in the conversation. You have to win a good percentage of the times you've been there, having a 30-40% winning percentage in the championship round isn't enough to be amongst the greatest of all time.