Dennis Green: How Would You Evaluate Him?

[seesred]

I think what many are saying that there are other coaches who have taken bad frachises and turned them around quicker. I for personal reasons like the Bidwills. But the truth be told they didn't have the direction in the last 100 years to do what neede to be done. Now I don't know who was on the rosters when the others took to the field, but I got to believe our mess was much bigger than there mess.

How many did he have to get rid of the first year and I think just as many the second year. We now have the money streams, the stadium, many good to great players and there are no more excuses. This year will tell us many things about this franchise that we follow and love. I hope it's a positive story I can't take anymore rebuilsing!

GBR
40

 

[Cheesebeef]

Cowher did a superior job with the Steelers, yes. But your near-rabid scorn of DG is a bit over the edge. The Cardinals franchise has broken many a player and many a coach. Much has had to be changed. Progress is evident. One measure is Cowher, yes, another is McGinniss, or Wilkinson, or Hanifan, or Winner, or Stallings, or even Tobin.

Let's hope this discussion takes a more pleasing tone (for all of us) as the season unfolds. I know we all agree on this.

near rabid scorn? Are you kidding me? I just said I was one of DG's biggest supporters when he signed and did as good a job as anyone could possibly do in his first year, but we regressed considerably in his second. That's RABID SCORN? Give me a freaking break. Now I remember why I left this board - if you say even the nariest negative thing, immediately you're thrown WAYYYYYY outside to the "darkside"/rabid scorn area. That's a joke.

 

[BigRedRage]

comparing the Cardinals DG to Bill Cowher is laughable. Cowher took over a Steelers team that had been mired in relative nothingness (1 playofff appearance in 7 years) since the early 80's and IMMEDIATELY made them a CONSISTENT team - 11-5, first year, 9-7 second and Syper Bowl in his fourth. It's easy to stick with someone when they actually produce.

Same goes with Andy Reid, who got the woeful Eagles to the playoff his second year and got them there every year since before laast year, or Marvin Lewis, who turned around a franchise AS BAD AS OURS with the Bengals, taking a 2-14 team to 8-8 within one season and leading the wild-card race until week 15 when his starting QB went down and then winning his division in Year 3. Each other those guys faced situations as piss-poor as ours and each of them righted the ship within 2 years, MAX. It doesn't take more than that in today's NFL, that's why DG's got one more year. If you can't rebuild in 3, you've lost your touch IMO.

i dont think hes really comparing, more of saying he would like our coach to stay for 10 years not prove what hes got in 3 or go

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think what many are saying that there are other coaches who have taken bad frachises and turned them around quicker. I for personal reasons like the Bidwills. But the truth be told they didn't have the direction in the last 100 years to do what neede to be done. Now I don't know who was on the rosters when the others took to the field, but I got to believe our mess was much bigger than there mess.

How many did he have to get rid of the first year and I think just as many the second year. We now have the money streams, the stadium, many good to great players and there are no more excuses. This year will tell us many things about this franchise that we follow and love. I hope it's a positive story I can't take anymore rebuilsing!

GBR
40

I agree - there are no more excuses, but as far as our mess was greater than anyone else, tell that to Bengal fans who hadn't made the playoffs since 1990 and averaged less than 4 wins per year the previous 5 seasons before Marvin Lewis arrived who instantly turned that team around winning 6 more games his first year than the previous year, had them on the brink of the playoffs the next year and then won the division title in year 3. The Bengals were WORSE than us - they were the laughingstock in the league. If they could turn it around as fast as we did, with a rookie head coach, I expect more out of a seasoned winner like DG.

 

[az1965]

42-19 - Giants
37-12 - Seahawks
34-13 - Dallas
33-19 - Seahawks
29-21 - AN AWFUL DETROIT - who kicked out ass all game long until some garbage points
30-19 - AGAINST THE WORST TEAM IN THE LEAGUE

Actually, in reality we were blown out in more than half our losses (6) and then lost to a pre-season Indy team, which is equally pathetic. That's 7 pathetic losses out of 11, hardly backing up the "we were close in almost all our losses".

That's what bothered me the most about last year - year one, I thought DG did about as good of a job as he could possibly do, but there was SERIOUS regression last year, not to mention porous lack of depth, and then to see a team with suspect depth again, that is what makes DG disappointing to me so far. He's got one more year to right the ship - I hope he's able to do it.

Last year also we were desimated with injuries. How many starters were out from both offense and defense? So, some, if not all, of it should be attributed to injuries.

 

[Cheesebeef]

i dont think hes really comparing, more of saying he would like our coach to stay for 10 years not prove what hes got in 3 or go

well, I'd like to see our coach stay for 10 years as well - but only because that would have to mean HE'S WINNING. If you just want stabslity for stability sake, that's illogical. Stability comes from winning period and if you can't prove you are a stable winning team within three years, you ain't got a shot in today's NFL.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

i dont think hes really comparing, more of saying he would like our coach to stay for 10 years not prove what hes got in 3 or go

So ten years is the minimum time we can judge a coach? Three years is enough time in the modern NFL to prove whether an NFL head coach has it or not. If Denny goes anything less than 7-9 this year then the talent is overrated or the coaching sucks, either way Denny is responsible and should be dealt with accordingly.

 

[az1965]

So who is the replacement?

 

[blindseyed]

I'm not a DG hater or jocker, I'm for anybody that can coach this team to WINS. In todays NFL, all that matters is wins and DG hasn't done that...yet. I say YET because I want us to win and I want him to succeed so that WE succeed. So all the talent in the workd means nothing if the team isn't winning, little moral victories don't matter, this isn't pop warner, we need to WIN and WIN now, not in 2 or 3 years.
I don't think I even answered the question....

 

[Cheesebeef]

I've got a question - what if this guy's name WASN'T Dennis Green? Would we all be saying what a great coach he is, having an O-line that was actually worse than it was the previous season and having regressed in other areas as well like we did last season?

I think DG gets a free pass here from a lot of people because of what he did with the Vikes. I know I gave him one his first year and saw real signs of progress that first year. We looked like an NFL Football team that year, not a good one, but they looked like they belonged. Last year, we were a team reminscient of the Mackage crew - couldn't run the ball, couldn't score touchdowns and gave up a ton of points and managed to sneak otu a few wins against the WORST teams in the league. I firmly believe if it was just Joe Schmoe coaching this team, people wouldn't be heaping the sort of praise on a guy who's gon 11-21 with a season two of regression under his belt.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

So who is the replacement?

Not ready to go there yet, I think this team has enough to be at the very least mediocre which is all I'm asking for this year. However if Week 17 rolls around and we're staring at another Top 10 pick then it might be time to start looking elsewhere.

 

[Cheesebeef]

So who is the replacement?

who's talking about a replacement? We're talking about year three - this is it. This is make it or break it. If we're 6-10 or worse again, you can't go into next season with a lame-duck coach and you sure as hell can't extend a guy who's 17-31, correct?

Let's get to your question when we need to (which is hopefully when DG has righted this ship and is retiring).

 

[Pariah]

The title of this thread reminded me of this classic exchange:

Judge Smails: "You don't keep score? How do you measure yourself against other golfers?"

Ty Webb: "By height?"

 

[red desert]

near rabid scorn? Are you kidding me? I just said I was one of DG's biggest supporters when he signed and did as good a job as anyone could possibly do in his first year, but we regressed considerably in his second. That's RABID SCORN? Give me a freaking break. Now I remember why I left this board - if you say even the nariest negative thing, immediately you're thrown WAYYYYYY outside to the "darkside"/rabid scorn area. That's a joke.

Indeed.

 

[red desert]

I've got a question - what if this guy's name WASN'T Dennis Green? Would we all be saying what a great coach he is, having an O-line that was actually worse than it was the previous season and having regressed in other areas as well like we did last season?

I think DG gets a free pass here from a lot of people because of what he did with the Vikes. I know I gave him one his first year and saw real signs of progress that first year. We looked like an NFL Football team that year, not a good one, but they looked like they belonged. Last year, we were a team reminscient of the Mackage crew - couldn't run the ball, couldn't score touchdowns and gave up a ton of points and managed to sneak otu a few wins against the WORST teams in the league. I firmly believe if it was just Joe Schmoe coaching this team, people wouldn't be heaping the sort of praise on a guy who's gon 11-21 with a season two of regression under his belt.

Well said. It really does baffle me that so many jump to Green's defense when he has won so few games for the Cardinals, and has often appeared clueless at that. Specifically in his playcalling and game adjustments, or lack thereof. That, more than anything, just makes me hot.

 

[BigRedRage]

So ten years is the minimum time we can judge a coach? Three years is enough time in the modern NFL to prove whether an NFL head coach has it or not. If Denny goes anything less than 7-9 this year then the talent is overrated or the coaching sucks, either way Denny is responsible and should be dealt with accordingly.

no.....its a simple statement, i would prefer to have a tenured coach ala pittsburgh. nothing to do with how long it takes to prove yourself or if it should be denny, i just would love to have a consistant coach.

 

[arthurracoon]

I believe Denny and Michael Bidwill have turned around the franchise. DG has basically purged an entire 53-man roster in 2 seasons. I hope he gets an extention because I would like to see what he can do in years 4+.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I need to see these Cardinal teams look prepared every game day, execute, and play well on the road before I give Denny an extension.

He has done a hell of a job filling up the cupboard with talent (In fact if we do decide to fire him after next year i say we do it at the end of the offseason ) but those three things lie at the feet of the coach. I really want Denny to succeed this year but if he doesn't - this job will be an extremely attractive one should Bidwill open up the wallet....

 

[Arizona's Finest]

So who is the replacement?

By the way - and i have said this before - if we do go ater another head coach next year consider me the bandleader of the Kirk Ferentz bandwagon. His strengths are offensive line play and team execution as a whole (two big Cardinal needs) and he is a Belicheck disciple which is as close to gold as you can get in football these days....

 

[Redsz]

Well said. It really does baffle me that so many jump to Green's defense when he has won so few games for the Cardinals, and has often appeared clueless at that. Specifically in his playcalling and game adjustments, or lack thereof. That, more than anything, just makes me hot.

Many 'jump' to Green's defense because they can see the positives that Green has acomplished here in his tenure to date.

Personally, when making an evaluation, I look at all facets of the team and the changes that have taken place since his arrival and then make a decision. I don't believe it is as black and white as wins and loses.

And again, the OC and DC are responsible for playcalling and adjustments. Not Green. If your not happy about that then mention Pendergast and Rowen as well.

 

[az1965]

I'm willing to give Green a free pass for last year as well, just because of so many injuries. Granted that the OL mess should have been fixed and some of the coaches he hired were questionable.

I would like to see this year overall improvement in execution in all aspects of the game. We have talent now except for few places that can be improved. If I see that then we give Green extension even if we go 7-9 or 8-8.

 

[az1965]

Last year, we were a team reminscient of the Mackage crew - couldn't run the ball, couldn't score touchdowns and gave up a ton of points and managed to sneak otu a few wins against the WORST teams in the league.

The reason it might have looked like that is perhaps due to injuries several of the 2nd and even 3rd stringers were on the field. Don't you think that contributed to it somewhat?

 

[Pariah]

I've got a question - what if this guy's name WASN'T Dennis Green? ...

I think DG gets a free pass here from a lot of people because of what he did with the Vikes.

To be fair, what he did with the Vikings IS a part of who he is as a coach. If his name wasn't Denny Green and was still among the winningest active coaches, I'd give that guy a little leeway, too. Much more so than a guy without a winning resume as long as his arm who came in and had two losing seasons.

 

[ChandlerCard]

I give Green a lot of credit for what he's done so far, because we've seen many things we just weren't used to as Cardinal fans. But I give half that credit to Michael Bidwill, who continues to pave the way for positive change. Ultimately, I'd evalute Denny on wins and losses, because that's his ultimate responsibility, and because unlike previous coaches he can't blame limitations placed on him (granted, there are still few to tackle...)

 

[Cheesebeef]

The reason it might have looked like that is perhaps due to injuries several of the 2nd and even 3rd stringers were on the field. Don't you think that contributed to it somewhat?

every team has injuries - they're part of the game - however, every team doesn't have such poor depth like we did and continue to.

Besides, we were getting the crap beat out of us before all the injuries - 37-13, 42-19 and losing a pathetic home game to the Rams while not being able to score a single TD, so it's not like we were gang-busters when we were somewhat healthy.

Macs teams could say the same thing about injuries- as could most of the league. Seattle lost ALL of their starting WRs for a good chunk of the year, NE, lost key pieces up and down their defense and along most of their O-line and had Corey Dillon banged up... I could go on and on about other teams, but consistently you hear that we are the only team affected by injuries. The Cards don't play in a vaccuum - injuries are part of the game - some teams are able to withstand them because they actually have depth/solid coaching staffs - last year we had question marks in both areas (OL coach being the biggest and most pathetic example).