Do you think Nash still has a chance to win the MVP Award?

[BigBinBigD]

Stockton would have fouled out of a lot of games if he was a Sun. The Sun's reputation does not allow for his physical brand of defense.

I Stockton played for them they wouldn't have that reputation.

And anyone thinking Dirk doesn't make everyone else better just think about it. He is a matchup HELL. Every coach, GM, or analyst goes on and on about how hard it is to guard him. That creates opportunities for every other player. And he has finally learned how to exploit those opportunities. They might be able to play for awhile w/o him ok, but for a season it would catch up with them. All the easy shots everyone else is getting would dry up.

The last time the Rockets came to town, McGrady went off for about 20 in the first quarter. I loved it cuz I knew as soon as he cooled off the other players for them wouldn't know what to do. Sure enough, by half, he cooled off and the team stood around with their thumbs up their asses and got killed the second half. Dirk would never hog the ball like that and ignore everyone else. But he'll never get the gaudy stats, either. He could score 30-35 a game if he wanted to. He just knows that's not the way to win consistently.

 

[Covert Rain]

I don't know if your joking, but I hope so.

No. I'm not.

He's also a much better defender than Nash, hasn't missed significant time, and his team has by far the best record in the league.

Much better? Last time I checked Dirk is still considered one of the softest big men in the NBA. Every time he plays against someone his size, Dirk get's worked. Dirk plays mostly on the perimeter for a reason.

If he doesn't get it then it just exposes the MVP race as a sham.

How so? Your saying Nash doesn't deserve it? Your saying he is not as "VALUABLE" if not more to the Suns? Most valuable being the key term.

The problem with the MVP has been that people have associated it with the best player in the NBA for some time now. That has happened for so many years that when the "spirit" of the award was revisited by awarding Nash people were shocked. They shouldn't have been and should be applauding that someone still gets what this award is all about.

To say that Dirk doesn't make his teammates better is just plane wrong. It ignores all the intangibles that go along with a player that other fans can't see in a box score.

Having a player who fills up the box score and helps his team win because of his play is different then making your teammates better. Dirk's overall play helps his team win. However, he hardly makes the other guys on the team better. I would not be offended if Dirk won the MVP. However, Nash is clearly the MVP IMO.

 

[greensborohill]

Did you ignore everything I typed Steeldog.

I'm not arguing the box score b/c it's obvious that Dirk has the box score numbers. I think it's down right unintellegent for anyone that claims to know basketball to say that Dirk Nowitzki doesn't make his teamates better by making things easier for them. Just b/c you don't see assist doesn't mean he isn't making his mates better. Duncan only has 3.2 apg's a game. . . does that mean he doesn't make his teamates better? And yes, at this point a part from the titles Duncan are Dirk are equals (espically for this arguement).

The mere fact that Nowitzki requires a double or triple team is all that it takes to make everyone better. It's the difference between an open shot and a contested one. Of the P & R you'll see two men stick with Dirk which leaves more open shots.

Remember the game versus Toronto where Howard made the last shot? That was b/c two men stuck w/ Dirk. Howard and Terry got the glory, but Dirk was the reason for it.

He's not a PG, if he had the ball in his hands all the time I'd venture to say he could ge 8 APG's. But I'd expect you above anyone else on this board to understand that basketball is more than what you see in the box score. Maybe my opinion of you was too high.

 

[greensborohill]

No. I'm not.



Much better? Last time I checked Dirk is still considered one of the softest big men in the NBA. Every time he plays against someone his size, Dirk get's worked. Dirk plays mostly on the perimeter for a reason.



How so? Your saying Nash doesn't deserve it? Your saying he is not as "VALUABLE" if not more to the Suns? Most valuable being the key term.

The problem with the MVP has been that people have associated it with the best player in the NBA for some time now. That has happened for so many years that when the "spirit" of the award was revisited by awarding Nash people were shocked. They shouldn't have been and should be applauding that someone still gets what this award is all about.



Having a player who fills up the box score and helps his team win because of his play is different then making your teammates better. Dirk's overall play helps his team win. However, he hardly makes the other guys on the team better. I would not be offended if Dirk won the MVP. However, Nash is clearly the MVP IMO.

Barbosa
Bell
Marion
Diaw
Amare

versus

Terry
Buckner
Howard
Croshere
Dampier

You tell me who wins that one?

I'd say as the teams are layed out, Dirk means more to Dallas than Nash means to the Suns. The small sample of games Nash missed not withstanding, given a longer sample the talent is too deep for them not to be a 5th seed or even 4th. And to say Marion and Amre would struggle to all-stars is just wrong. . they were or were close to being such b4 Nash.

 

[TucsonDevil]

Just b/c the man doesn't have the assists to show it doesn't mean he's every bit on par w a Nash, Kobe, Duncan, or KG at making the game easier for his teammates.

Huh? Kobe, Duncan and KG do not, and have never made their teammates better players (unless you consider that taking defensive pressure away from a shooter qualifies as making teammates better - but if that teammate doesn't see the ball, what good is it to have less defensive pressure?). In Kobe's defense, he is trying this season to get his teammates more involved with his games. I don't recall ever seeing a Spur, Timberwolf, or Laker increase his output and/or stats by simply playing with Kobe, Duncan, and/or KG for the first time. Those that have played with Nash the last three seasons have had that - career years.

Nash could easisly score in the high 20s every game, but that is not what he does best. He creates space so that an offense can run more efficiently and effectively that it normally would. He (and only Nash) has made D'Antoni's system work. Without Nash, the Suns can't win - even with talented big men. It isn't because they suck, but Nash puts them in the optimal position on the offensive and defensive end to succeed. This is not done with simple assits, though that is a big indication of it. He leads the league with almost 3 more than the next person. Most players think in terms of 'how can we score this trip down the court' - Nash (I belive) is setting up how the final quarter will play out by what he does with this posession. He wants as many people touching the ball as possible - whoever is open, gets the ball. Some PG think, "oh, Player Y has hit 2 shots in a row... get him the ball no matter what". Nash would think, "Player Y is hot. How can we keep giving him open looks... oh wait, player x is slashing to the basket..." zing goes the bounce pass in traffic to player X.

NOW - let's not argue this point any longer. No one in the league makes his teammates better than #13. Few in the history of the game have (Magic, Bird, Stockton...).

Dirk is an amazing player. If he wins the MVP trophy this year, it is well deserved. For years now, he has lead a team to the players, slowly improving their position. Dirk has redefined the roll of a 7-footer (after KG did it a year or two earlier). The Mavs record this year is an indication of his ability to stay focused and execute. That is what an MVP does, and is. Dirk fits that mold and could win this year - I wouldn't argue the choice too much. I've always enjoyed watching Dirk play.

 

[greensborohill]

Huh? Kobe, Duncan and KG do not, and have never made their teammates better players (unless you consider that taking defensive pressure away from a shooter qualifies as making teammates better - but if that teammate doesn't see the ball, what good is it to have less defensive pressure?).

Isn't that the gist of making your teamates better?

Raja Bell: Wow Steve, you penetrated the lane and drew my defender from the wing closer to you, then you passed it out to me and I have an opne 3 point shot as opposed to a contested one. I am much better at making open shots as I am contested ones. Thank you Steve!!

Devan George:Wow Dirk, you posted up drew Stack's defender from the wing closer to you, then you passed it out to Stack and my defender rotated to him, then he passed it to me, and now I have an opne 3 point shot as opposed to a contested one. I am much better at making open shots as I am contested ones. Thank you Dirk!!

Same scenario, but in the first Nash gets the assist. How can you guys not get that?

 

[Covert Rain]

Did you ignore everything I typed Steeldog.

Not everything.

I'm not arguing the box score b/c it's obvious that Dirk has the box score numbers. I think it's down right unintellegent for anyone that claims to know basketball to say that Dirk Nowitzki doesn't make his teamates better by making things easier for them. Just b/c you don't see assist doesn't mean he isn't making his mates better. Duncan only has 3.2 apg's a game. . . does that mean he doesn't make his teamates better? And yes, at this point a part from the titles Duncan are Dirk are equals (espically for this arguement).

What??? No Duncan is a legit big man who likes to defend on the block. Dirk could never dream of being the defender that Duncan is. Not only can Duncan take over a game like Dirk but he can defend with the best of them. To say that Dirk is Duncan's equal is ridiculous...in any argument. Duncan won the MVP's because he does it on both ends of the court.

Nash may not be a defender but his scoring and assists are are a catalyst for the entire team. Neither Nash or Dirk has a reputation for being defensive stoppers. So that aside, Nash has a bigger impact in a given game then Dirk.

The mere fact that Nowitzki requires a double or triple team is all that it takes to make everyone better. It's the difference between an open shot and a contested one. Of the P & R you'll see two men stick with Dirk which leaves more open shots.

Not true. There are plenty of teams that have guys that get double teamed. If the other guys can shoot, the team looks good. If they can't they don't look good. Dirk getting doubled teamed doesn't help those guys shoot any better unless they get layups every time which doesn't happen. So by your reasoning Dirk automatically makes his teammates better when hes doubled and they make the shots. What is Dirk's impact when they miss the shots? Do you honestly think that if the rest of the team couldn't shoot we would even be arguing this point?

There is a reason that how many times a player is double teamed isn't considered a major stat when even looking at the box scores. Getting double teames versus assists???? Come on!

Remember the game versus Toronto where Howard made the last shot? That was b/c two men stuck w/ Dirk. Howard and Terry got the glory, but Dirk was the reason for it.

OK, it was the defensive decision to double Dirk. Dirk's overall play made the defense respect his ability. However, it wasn't Dirks ability that made Terry make the shot. If you want to argue that Dirk's abilities give his other guys more open shots, I will buy that. That's a far cry from the way Nash sets up his teammates. Nash's SKILLS (meaning his actions) directly allow him to setup teammates versus a defensive decision to double Dirk.

He's not a PG, if he had the ball in his hands all the time I'd venture to say he could ge 8 APG's. But I'd expect you above anyone else on this board to understand that basketball is more than what you see in the box score. Maybe my opinion of you was too high.

It was high? Again, I didn't say that Dirk wasn't good. I didn't say that Dirk getting doubled doesn't impact a game. However, Amare gets double teames all the time. So do other stars on other teams. That doesn't make them MVP's. It just means the defense has to account for those guys.

Again, would I be upset if Dirk won the award? If you use the basis that the award has been more about the top player award versus the most valuable to your team award over the years then OK.

 

[Hoopy Dunkalot]

Huh?

I can't believe I'm reading that Dirk doesn't make his teammates better. That's homerism at it's best.

Greenie said it best so I'd have you go back and read his post.

Here's a little fact for you - in April, guess who will be the biggest shouter of Dirk for MVP?

Answer: Steve Nash

 

[fordronken]

I have an idea. How about everybody just writes what they think in their diaries, then they lock it up and never read it to anyone.

 

[myrondizzo]

I can't believe I'm reading that Dirk doesn't make his teammates better. That's homerism at it's best.

Greenie said it best so I'd have you go back and read his post.

Here's a little fact for you - in April, guess who will be the biggest shouter of Dirk for MVP?

Answer: Steve Nash

and dirk will be the biggest shouter for nash.

 

[Covert Rain]

I can't believe I'm reading that Dirk doesn't make his teammates better. That's homerism at it's best.

Greenie said it best so I'd have you go back and read his post.

Here's a little fact for you - in April, guess who will be the biggest shouter of Dirk for MVP?

Answer: Steve Nash

Wow that's a stretch considering they are best friends. The last 2 years Dirk said that Steve deserved it. So what? I don't hear either of them saying "I" deserve it.

 

[island_dude]

Duncan isn't near the defender he once was, still adequate, but not a dominant defender.

He's still a very good low post scorer, and can still be unstoppable.

Dirk isn't a great defender, but has made improvements and isn't near the liability he once was.

He doesn't have a back to the basket low post game like Duncan, but is very proficient at setting scoring from 8-15 feet, probably just as effective as Duncan on the low block.

Saying he isn't close to being Duncan's equal is assinine.

 

[jbeecham]

Isn't that the gist of making your teamates better?

Raja Bell: Wow Steve, you penetrated the lane and drew my defender from the wing closer to you, then you passed it out to me and I have an opne 3 point shot as opposed to a contested one. I am much better at making open shots as I am contested ones. Thank you Steve!!

Devan George:Wow Dirk, you posted up drew Stack's defender from the wing closer to you, then you passed it out to Stack and my defender rotated to him, then he passed it to me, and now I have an opne 3 point shot as opposed to a contested one. I am much better at making open shots as I am contested ones. Thank you Dirk!!

Same scenario, but in the first Nash gets the assist. How can you guys not get that?

That scenario can be made for every star player, but you act like that's the only way Nash gets assists and it's not. He has many unbelievable passes in pretty much every game for easy baskets that I don't think any other PG in the league can make on a consistent basis (possibly JKidd).

Nash is having a career year in scoring, but he's 4th on the team in shot attempts (almost 5th). He could easily average 25ppg, but he defers to his teammates and only tries to score when he feels his team needs a boost or he can get layups.

They're both incredibly talented and deserving candidates and neither team would be half as good as they are without them. It's hard to tell which guy is more valuable to his team, but we've seen the Suns without Nash and it's not pretty at all. The Suns go from being the most exciting, fun to watch team in basketball to playing like the NY Knicks. The Mavs would probably be equally bad without Dirk because a lot of their offense runs through him, but I don't know if they'd be as bad because they'd still have 2 competent ball handlers to initiate their offense.

 

[Covert Rain]

Duncan isn't near the defender he once was, still adequate, but not a dominant defender.

He's still a very good low post scorer, and can still be unstoppable.

Dirk isn't a great defender, but has made improvements and isn't near the liability he once was.

He doesn't have a back to the basket low post game like Duncan, but is very proficient at setting scoring from 8-15 feet, probably just as effective as Duncan on the low block.

Saying he isn't close to being Duncan's equal is assinine.

Well if you consider Duncan adequate then where does that leave Dirk? Dirk is still not the defender Duncan is. Not even close. So trying to compare Dirk now to an "adequate" Duncan? Now that is assinine.

You want to compare their offensive games? OK. The buck stops there.

 

[sandeepgm]

Dirk has come quite a long way as a defender. he has really improved his passing, averaging about 4.3 assists in the month of february and 7 in march(granted its only 2 games).

To say that Dirk is getting assists only because the shooters are knocking it down is stupid. Its not that all the other teams are allowing nash to penetrate at will and dish it to other sun's players favorite spots. He is also being double teamed giving him the opportunity to find open teammates when he drives.

Nash might get it more into the sweet spots of the suns player than Dirk to his teammates cause he is a talented PG and he has been doing this for a while.

As far as unselfishness, dirk is just as unselfish as nash is. He could easily have a lot of 40+ point games if he has to.

 

[Covert Rain]

Dirk has come quite a long way as a defender.

Great. Dirk's gone from terrible defender to below average for his size.

To say that Dirk is getting assists only because the shooters are knocking it down is stupid.

Who said that? That wasn't the point. Last time I checked if you pass the ball to another guy and he makes it...you get an assist. The point was that when the defense makes the decision to double Dirk, that take zero skill on Dirk's part. When Nash drives and run's the open floor he is making the decisions. Just because you get double teamed doesn't mean your automatically making your other teammates better.

He could easily have a lot of 40+ point games if he has to.

Again, nobody is questioning Dirk's offensive skills. Nobody has said Dirk isn't a great player. Just saying that he doesn't impact the game and get others involved like Nash. I didn't say he NEVER does. That is what seperates the 2 for me in the MVP race.

 

[sandeepgm]

Great. Dirk's gone from terrible defender to below average for his size.

And nash has always stayed terrible. In one game i watched recently raja was knocked down to the floor and the other team was having a fastbreak on phoenix. Nash as part of making his teammates better was helping raja up and then running back. Hilarious to see that.

All defense means to the suns is fooling other teams to follow your pace and miss shots.

Who said that? That wasn't the point. Last time I checked if you pass the ball to another guy and he makes it...you get an assist. The point was that when the defense makes the decision to double Dirk, that take zero skill on Dirk's part. When Nash drives and run's the open floor he is making the decisions. Just because you get double teamed doesn't mean your automatically making your other teammates better.

--Ok now we are down to what takes skill. Dirk making passes out of double teams doesnt need skill. He has to recognise an open teammate and protect the ball and not rush it and he has been doing a better job of it. Ofcourse dirk is not going to run around and distribute it like a PG but saying that all this takes zero skills is stupid.

So in a not so PG oriented system like what shaq had earlier on, you mean to say that when shaq gets double teamed and he passes the ball that too takes no skill? and he is not making his teammates better? You probably think the teammates are making shaq look good by handing him more assists...lol

 

[Mainstreet]

I have resigned myself that Dirk will win the MVP unless something dramatic happens soon. However, I must say that Dirk is the only player I would want to have it other than Steve. I think Dirk and Steve are very much on the same level and when I think of the Mavs I only thing of Dirk. His tenacity carries their team. I just wish that many of the Mavs fans would lose their sense of entitlement because they have never climbed the mountain yet... just like Phoenix.

Also, do any Mav's fans ever think that they could possibly have had two MVP players on the same team playing together (Dirk and Nash)??? I do. Also I thank the Mavs for Steve Nash and for how Don Nelson developed him as a player.

 

[cardsunsfan]

Steeldog, you keep ignoring what I think is the most important thing.

Our top four guys other than Nash are better than Dallas' other four guys other than Dirk and Dallas is doing better than us.

What doesn't add up here?

 

[arwillan]

dirk deserves the mvp, no question. i think nash may win just because the media loves him and stern isnt exactly a huge mavs fan . they both do the same amount for their team, but i think its going to come down to the fact that dallas has a "weaker" team talent wise and is dominating the league. when you see that happen you ask yourself, "hmmm if this team isnt stacked with talent and all star players, why are they doing better than the teams that are?". you look to the strong part of their team, which is Dirk. he is what is making the mavs the team they are today

 

[Lorenzo]

steel dog i understand your point of dirk not being the defender that duncan is. There is no question there. But to say that dirk does not make his teammates better is like saying nash doesn't make his team better. What NBA team loses an MVP and gets better? That's straight out of jeff van gundy when asked about the mavs last year. And it's already been pointed out by most suns fans that it's clear that the suns have a better roster than that of the mavs. Amare is clearly one of the best finishers at the rim...something the mavs don't have in dampier/diop(poor man's version). Dampier and diop serve a bigger role at rebounding and blocking shots. Josh Howard and marion are very simular.....marion is a better leaper and josh handles the ball better and can create his own shot. barbosa and stackhouse are both key 6man, although barbosa has had a better season. Stackhouse is very streaky and can take over a game at any time. The comparisons could go on. But it appears that right now dallas is the better team. Take dirk away from the mavs and they wouldn't be the same. He has improved defensively, he is their best rebounder, and he creates most of the offense. You double him....someone gets a wide-open shot. You don't double and he is a mis-match for anyone who tries to guard him. He also steps up consistently in the 4th qtr when the game is on the line.

 

[cardsunsfan]

I think of this like the OJ case too much evidence so lots of people get confused. OJ: Blood all over the place..matches his DNA, case closed.

Dirk, has inferior players compared to the Suns but has a better record. Dirk= MVP until proven otherwise. Case closed.

 

[Lorenzo]

I think of this like the OJ case too much evidence so lots of people get confused. OJ: Blood all over the place..matches his DNA, case closed.

Dirk, has inferior players compared to the Suns but has a better record. Dirk= MVP until proven otherwise. Case closed.

well that's a unique way to look at it, but one thing i will bring up is last years playoffs. Most suns fans will remind the mavs that dallas still doesn't have a title and aren't above phoenix because amare was hurt last season. So when you take amare away.....in the playoffs it was pretty clear who the mvp was(at least dallasvs.phoenix). I don't know maybe some suns fans have an arguement. But i agree with those suns fans who say that it will be more difficult for dallas to beat phoenix this year because of amare. Amare is a huge factor. I wonder how many assists jason kidd would get on this current phoenix team.....not to say kidd is better than nash......they are close in the passing game.......but are very different in most other areas. Just look at nash with the mavs.... was he an MVP in dallas with that personnel?

 

[cardsunsfan]

unfortunatley it's the MVP for the regular season not the post season. It can also be debated that the Suns have better players than Dallas other than Dirk EVEN WITHOUT Amare.

 

[cardsunsfan]

Also if you have a guy who scores 50 points a game and shoots 85% he would be considered MVP in the league no matter how few assists he had because a normal team averages in the 40's and 50's when it comes to percentile. The rest of the team would have to screw up big time for them to lose on any given night.

Just because Dirk isn't as good at assisting his teammates does not mean he is not the most valuable player for a team.