Draft Pick Watch

[Superbone]

There are plenty of players picked after Morris that are better players. Mostly because Morris stinks.

Saying it over, and over, and over, and over, doesn't make it true.

 

[Phrazbit]

Saying it over, and over, and over, and over, doesn't make it true.

What part is not true? Do you really believe Morris is a good player? He is demonstrably a bad player. This is not an option that I have to repeatedly state in order to wish it true... his career up to this point bears it out plainly.

 

[DWKB]

As the 13th pick Morris is 15th in total WS of players in the 2011 draft. Seems like he's right where he should have gone based upon the talent available.

 

[AzStevenCal]

What part is not true? Do you really believe Morris is a good player? He is demonstrably a bad player. This is not an option that I have to repeatedly state in order to wish it true... his career up to this point bears it out plainly.

You have a tendency to make the world a lot more black and white than it really is. No, Morris, is not a "good player" but he's also not "demonstrably a bad player". You talk about "nothing" as if it's the thing that lies just next to "team with superstar". We don't have a star, that much is obvious, but that's not the same thing as nothing.

I think this management group could have done better than it has but I think we'd still be lacking a superstar. We will continue to lack one until we get lucky. We may be into the third year of this management team but we are really only in the middle of our first year rebuilding. There is no magic formula for rebuilding and there is no way other than getting incredibly lucky to make it happen in a short while. We will at be at this for years to come. If we fire every management team that fails to turn us around instantly, we might as well install a revolving door.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

As the 13th pick Morris is 15th in total WS of players in the 2011 draft. Seems like he's right where he should have gone based upon the talent available.

Who cares? He is a bad player. And how many of those 14 ahead of him were chose after him in the draft?

We had a draft slot where low quality players are the norm, even by the standard you just used he is actually playing below his draft slot, and a bunch of much better players where chosen after him.

What does he do well? He is poor defensively, a sub par rebounder, his offense relies entirely on a below average jumper. How is it even debatable that he is a poor player? You want to debate the slot he was chosen and talk about hindsight? Thats one thing, but I just dont see an argument where Morris himself is anything but lousy.

Hopefully he improves. It would be really nice to have something of quality youth on this team, but I just dont see it.

 

[Phrazbit]

You have a tendency to make the world a lot more black and white than it really is. No, Morris, is not a "good player" but he's also not "demonstrably a bad player". You talk about "nothing" as if it's the thing that lies just next to "team with superstar". We don't have a star, that much is obvious, but that's not the same thing as nothing.

I think this management group could have done better than it has but I think we'd still be lacking a superstar. We will continue to lack one until we get lucky. We may be into the third year of this management team but we are really only in the middle of our first year rebuilding. There is no magic formula for rebuilding and there is no way other than getting incredibly lucky to make it happen in a short while. We will at be at this for years to come. If we fire every management team that fails to turn us around instantly, we might as well install a revolving door.

Steve

I agree, you make a revolving door of management and its a bad thing, and rebuilding does involve some luck. But this management team has been here long enough to establish a roster entirely of their choosing, they've made plenty of moves. And as a whole its been a very very bad run. We are hitting a pivotal point as a franchise and based on their track record I dont trust them to do anything but muck it up.

But Morris is bad, and demonstrably so, at least so far in his career.

 

[DWKB]

Who cares? He is a bad player. And how many of those 14 ahead of him were chose after him in the draft?

We had a draft slot where low quality players are the norm, even by the standard you just used he is actually playing below his draft slot, and a bunch of much better players where chosen after him.

What does he do well? He is poor defensively, a sub par rebounder, his offense relies entirely on a below average jumper. How is it even debatable that he is a poor player? You want to debate the slot he was chosen and talk about hindsight? Thats one thing, but I just dont see an argument where Morris himself is anything but lousy.

Hopefully he improves. It would be really nice to have something of quality youth on this team, but I just dont see it.

Six of the fourteen were chosen after him, however MIN (#2), DET (#8), and UTA (#3) have gotten the same out of their picks as PHO is getting out of Morris at #13.

Morris is statistically equivalent to another Jayhawk, Nick Collison, except Phoenix doesn't have Durant and Westbrook and relies more on Morris as a scorer than OKC does Collison. Maybe you think Collison is a poor player too.

Edit: BTW, I'm not sure why Morris is considered a bad defensive player. For a PF he has a good percentage of blocks, charges, and steals to his name.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I agree, you make a revolving door of management and its a bad thing, and rebuilding does involve some luck. But this management team has been here long enough to establish a roster entirely of their choosing, they've made plenty of moves. And as a whole its been a very very bad run. We are hitting a pivotal point as a franchise and based on their track record I dont trust them to do anything but muck it up.

I'm pretty sure they entered their first season with a mandate to put complementary pieces around Nash and they tried to do just that. I will always believe that one of the worst things that happened to this franchise was making the WC finals with so little talent. It made them think we were still close and they moved forward with that idea driving them. We had an incredible run of luck that season (a point I made at the time and took some abuse for) and it kept us from starting the re-build when we should have.

As for judging this front office, I think you have to give more weight to everything they do from the Nash trade onward and just swallow the bad taste from previous actions. I don't like the Beasley deal, I agree it was unwise and unnecessary but unlike you, I don't think it will hurt us even a little in our future development. It's a little worrisome from the talent evaluation standpoint but that's about it.

I think, as has been said many times, we are mostly paying the price for horrible decisions made several years ago. Right now, we're trying to turn gravel into diamonds thanks to the shortsightedness of the front office throughout the Dantoni era. We don't have the luxury of just making small but smart moves, we're having to gamble on the Beasley's and Johnson's of the league. Not a good position to be in but Blanks and Babby didn't put us there. They may not be the answer but odds are, in the short run, there is no real answer.

Steve

 

[AzStevenCal]

Six of the fourteen were chosen after him, however MIN (#2), DET (#8), and UTA (#3) have gotten the same out of their picks as PHO is getting out of Morris at #13.

Morris is statistically equivalent to another Jayhawk, Nick Collison, except Phoenix doesn't have Durant and Westbrook and relies more on Morris as a scorer than OKC does Collison. Maybe you think Collison is a poor player too.

Edit: BTW, I'm not sure why Morris is considered a bad defensive player. For a PF he has a good percentage of blocks, charges, and steals to his name.

He has some nights when he looks lost out there. But, he also has some nights where he plays very good defense on his man. I don't know where I'd put him overall but I'd say no less than average for a near-starter level player.

Steve

 

[Phrazbit]

Six of the fourteen were chosen after him, however MIN (#2), DET (#8), and UTA (#3) have gotten the same out of their picks as PHO is getting out of Morris at #13.

Morris is statistically equivalent to another Jayhawk, Nick Collison, except Phoenix doesn't have Durant and Westbrook and relies more on Morris as a scorer than OKC does Collison. Maybe you think Collison is a poor player too.

Edit: BTW, I'm not sure why Morris is considered a bad defensive player. For a PF he has a good percentage of blocks, charges, and steals to his name.

Collison is shooting a full 20% better than Morris... and lets not pretend Morris is taking shots in the face of the defense, most of his shots, especially his long jumpers and 3s, are taken wide open. Teams dont fear Morris shooting from range, and they shouldnt, because he is a bad shooter.

Collison is bench depth. He fills their need for a hard nosed bench guy who hustles. He isnt anywhere near a starting quality player. Center is a serious problem for OKC, him, Thabeet and Perkins are clearly the weakest part of their team and have little doubt they would be thrilled to upgrade the position. But for now Collison fills a role. He is useful in the right role but certainly not even an average quality player.

http://www.82games.com/1213/12PHO10.HTM

As for defense, blocks and steals are frequently misleading (and its not like Morris wows in either stat). Defense is largely about positioning and awareness. As Steve said, Morris is frequently lost on defense. We are statistically better defensively when he is out of the game than when he plays... and considering his replacement (Scola) is very poor defensively, its rather telling about Morris' defensive skill.

 

[DWKB]

Collison is shooting a full 20% better than Morris... and lets not pretend Morris is taking shots in the face of the defense, most of his shots, especially his long jumpers and 3s, are taken wide open. Teams dont fear Morris shooting from range, and they shouldnt, because he is a bad shooter.

I'm sure Collison is shooting better because he's only taking high % shots as opposed to Morris who is being used as a much more offensive weapon in the Suns system.

Collison is bench depth. He fills their need for a hard nosed bench guy who hustles. He isnt anywhere near a starting quality player. Center is a serious problem for OKC, him, Thabeet and Perkins are clearly the weakest part of their team and have little doubt they would be thrilled to upgrade the position. But for now Collison fills a role. He is useful in the right role but certainly not even an average quality player.

Well Collison is their 6th man, which isn't anything to scoff at for an NBA team IMO and they just re-signed him in 2010 for four years. If you read about him the team absolutely loves him and has no desire to replace him anytime soon. I'm not claiming Morris can be anything more than Collison who is useful in the right role as you say. I'm just saying I think Morris is asked to do more because he's on a bad team and thus his numbers look worse.

http://www.82games.com/1213/12PHO10.HTM

As for defense, blocks and steals are frequently misleading (and its not like Morris wows in either stat). Defense is largely about positioning and awareness. As Steve said, Morris is frequently lost on defense. We are statistically better defensively when he is out of the game than when he plays... and considering his replacement (Scola) is very poor defensively, its rather telling about Morris' defensive skill.

Well I'm not familiar with the stats being presented on that site so I don't exactly know what I'm looking at or why. Looking at the 5 man rotations it looks like when Morris is on the court with Beasley or Oneal they are a really bad team and Morris/Beasley seem to be on the court a lot together.

 

[BC867]

...considering his replacement (Scola) is very poor defensively...

How ironic that in today's AzCentral/AzRepublic, it was quoted that, according to Sarver:

Luis Scola, draft picks all part of Phoenix Suns turnaround plan

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/hea...ks-all-part-phoenix-suns-turnaround-plan.html

 

[Phrazbit]

I'm sure Collison is shooting better because he's only taking high % shots as opposed to Morris who is being used as a much more offensive weapon in the Suns system.



Well Collison is their 6th man, which isn't anything to scoff at for an NBA team IMO and they just re-signed him in 2010 for four years. If you read about him the team absolutely loves him and has no desire to replace him anytime soon. I'm not claiming Morris can be anything more than Collison who is useful in the right role as you say. I'm just saying I think Morris is asked to do more because he's on a bad team and thus his numbers look worse.



Well I'm not familiar with the stats being presented on that site so I don't exactly know what I'm looking at or why. Looking at the 5 man rotations it looks like when Morris is on the court with Beasley or Oneal they are a really bad team and Morris/Beasley seem to be on the court a lot together.

Martin is their 6th man... but thats splitting hairs. I dont want to make it sound like I hate Collison, he is a nice player, not a good one. I'd say he falls under the umbrella of a "glue guy". A hard worker, unselfish, chips in where the team needs it. They have him signed for a little over 2 mil per year for the next 3 years, its a solid deal. But other than both being Kansas players I dont see a lot of resemblance between Morris and Collison.

And when I talk about the lack of direction and lack of potential on the roster, the idea that Morris being a contributor similar to Collison if we had better players is underwhelming. Morris is a very replaceable player with very limited talents.

If what BC867 linked ends up panning out and Scola (inexplicably) is part of the front offices "plan" for the long term, then where does that leave a player like Morris? Especially with Frye still owed another 13 million after this year, and how much time we're wasting on Measley at the 2 forward spots.

When I talk about a lack of vision and the team making moves with little thought on how it impacts other moves... this is what I mean.

And seriously, Scola is part of the "plan"? A 32, soon to be 33, year old amnesty claim in decline? This franchise is incomprehensible.

 

[SunsTzu]

I'm sure Collison is shooting better because he's only taking high % shots as opposed to Morris who is being used as a much more offensive weapon in the Suns system.

Collison shoots a high % because he has much better shot selection. Collison has never shot below 50% while Morris is just over 40% by the skin of his teeth this year after failing to hit that mark last season. Collison's TS% for his career is 10% higher than Morris's thus far. This isn't just due to the team situation either as Collison pre-Durant still blows Morris out of the water in efficiency.

Both are career rotational PF, but Collison is vastly superior in that role because he's a much smarter player. Collison is like the front court version of Jared Dudley as a guy who you can rely on with his consistency and efficiency regardless of the team.

 

[Folster]

If what BC867 linked ends up panning out and Scola (inexplicably) is part of the front offices "plan" for the long term, then where does that leave a player like Morris? Especially with Frye still owed another 13 million after this year, and how much time we're wasting on Measley at the 2 forward spots.

When I talk about a lack of vision and the team making moves with little thought on how it impacts other moves... this is what I mean.

And seriously, Scola is part of the "plan"? A 32, soon to be 33, year old amnesty claim in decline? This franchise is incomprehensible.

I think you are misinterpreting why Sarver included Scola's name with draft picks as part of the turnaround plan. Scola is an asset at 4.5 million per season who will likely be moved this summer when he is eligible to be traded. He could easily return a mid-to-late first rounder or be packaged to move up in the draft.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I think you are misinterpreting why Sarver included Scola's name with draft picks as part of the turnaround plan. Scola is an asset at 4.5 million per season who will likely be moved this summer when he is eligible to be traded. He could easily return a mid-to-late first rounder or be packaged to move up in the draft.

Exactly. In a rebuild, you collect assets however you can. That was also probably the idea behind the Beasley signing. Hopefully you turn a young talented fa into a piece you can use or trade.

 

[slinslin]

The joke is that Earl Clark is putting up 20/12/4 games for the Lakers.

The same Earl Clark that Alvin Gentry absolutely refused to give any minutes to to develop him.

 

[Errntknght]

Collison shoots a high % because he has much better shot selection. Collison has never shot below 50% while Morris is just over 40% by the skin of his teeth this year after failing to hit that mark last season. Collison's TS% for his career is 10% higher than Morris's thus far. This isn't just due to the team situation either as Collison pre-Durant still blows Morris out of the water in efficiency.

Both are career rotational PF, but Collison is vastly superior in that role because he's a much smarter player. Collison is like the front court version of Jared Dudley as a guy who you can rely on with his consistency and efficiency regardless of the team.

Finally, someone who appreciates what Collison brings. He's Morris' ceiling and if Keiff makes it to that level, I'll be thrilled.

 

[DWKB]

Finally, someone who appreciates what Collison brings. He's Morris' ceiling and if Keiff makes it to that level, I'll be thrilled.

Exactly, that's all I'm saying.

Give Morris time to learn his place and he can be serviceable, but I don't see that happening the way the current Suns team is built. Would be nice if that can change though for both Morris and the Suns.

Morris is never going to be a star in the league, but he does have the chance to positively contribute to an NBA team IMO. He's shown enough at time to make me think so anyways. I don't think the Suns drafting Morris 13th in the 2011 draft was one of their poor decisions as a franchise.

 

[SunsTzu]

Exactly, that's all I'm saying.

Give Morris time to learn his place and he can be serviceable, but I don't see that happening the way the current Suns team is built. Would be nice if that can change though for both Morris and the Suns.

Morris is never going to be a star in the league, but he does have the chance to positively contribute to an NBA team IMO. He's shown enough at time to make me think so anyways. I don't think the Suns drafting Morris 13th in the 2011 draft was one of their poor decisions as a franchise.

Morris was a bad pick because of the players that were still on the board. His being stuck on a bad team doesn't excuse his poor play and makes the Collison comparison inaccurate as Collison was just as productive when he was a young player on a bad team as he is now(only his scoring efficiency has increased which is to be expected).

 

[SweetD]

Morris was a bad pick because of the players that were still on the board. His being stuck on a bad team doesn't excuse his poor play and makes the Collison comparison inaccurate as Collison was just as productive when he was a young player on a bad team as he is now(only his scoring efficiency has increased which is to be expected).

Who would you have picked? Outside of Faried at 6'6" no PF in that draft class has done a lot more than Morris. Thristan Thompson/Williams are only other decent PF pick that has come out of that draft. Morris's stats are almost identical to those two also.

 

[SunsTzu]

Who would you have picked? Outside of Faried at 6'6" no PF in that draft class has done a lot more than Morris. Thristan Thompson/Williams are only other decent PF pick that has come out of that draft. Morris's stats are almost identical to those two also.

Leonard or Faried were the 2 guys I really wanted. Trying to downplay Faried because of his height seems a bit ridiculous given how well he's translated. Beyond that, the measurement I care more about for interior players is standing reach and Faried has a decisive advantage over Morris there.

 

[SweetD]

Leonard or Faried were the 2 guys I really wanted. Trying to downplay Faried because of his height seems a bit ridiculous given how well he's translated. Beyond that, the measurement I care more about for interior players is standing reach and Faried has a decisive advantage over Morris there.

Got a link for that request? No body ever says I wanted X o he sucked more never mind...

I was actually hoping for Motiejunas or Jordan Hamilton but I was ok with the Morris pick also.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Morris was a bad pick because of the players that were still on the board. His being stuck on a bad team doesn't excuse his poor play and makes the Collison comparison inaccurate as Collison was just as productive when he was a young player on a bad team as he is now(only his scoring efficiency has increased which is to be expected).

Exactly, and comparing Morris to Collison is an absolute insult to Collison. Whether or not Collison is contributing statistically, he's one of the smartest players in the league and consistently has one of the best plus minuses in the NBA. He is a master of the little things that help teams win, something that Morris simply doesn't do.

Morris is a tweener with a bad attitude that doesn't do anything well. You DON'T draft guys in the NBA that don't do at least one thing really well. He's a dime a dozen guy, and a waste of a pick.

 

[SunsTzu]

Got a link for that request? No body ever says I wanted X o he sucked more never mind...

I was actually hoping for Motiejunas or Jordan Hamilton but I was ok with the Morris pick also.

Doesn't look like I posted much about the draft at that time on this board(mostly expressed my lack of faith in any pick the FO made) and the other board I post on frequently doesn't have a search feature.

If you want examples of when I missed poorly, then 2006 I wanted Sergio Rodriguez or Jordan Farmer but didn't want any part of Rondo(or Marcus Williams so at least I was right on that).

I think Nikola Mirotic(picked with the 1st the Suns used to trade Dragic for Brooks) may become the best player picked after Morris when he comes over but I really didn't know much about him prior to the draft.