ESPN Insider suggests....fasten your seat belts

[Cheesebeef]

i really think anyone who wouldn't do Harden for Nash/Gortat is wayyyyyyy over-valuing our own players. Nash has no future on this team and Gortat is a solid big-man, but he's at best a good #4 option on any true contender. As a sixth man at only 31 minutes per game in only his 3rd year, Harden's already shooting 49%, 39% from 3, averaging 17, 4 and 4. You give him starter minutes and he's easily a 21/5/5 guy, who attacks the rim at will. Sure he had a bad finals, but he was freaking en fuego before that. If you can get him at 15 million per, he'd be a fantastic building block for the future. Put him with a likely high lotto pick and tons of cap space next season and you might just convince someone of worth to come here and revitalize the team.

There's no future with Nash and by the time there is a future, Gortat will likely by 30. The team needs to sell high on Gortat while it can IMO.

that being said, the Thunder could get a hell of a lot more for Harden than that package in my opinion.

 

[sunsfan88]

Sorry meant Thunder and who said anything about Harden's rebounding? I was referring to swapping out Gortat for Perkins. Hell yes it matters. Between Perkins and Lopez you will get 9 or 10 rebounds per night between the two of them on a good night. Both of those guys on a bad night is scary. It matters.



He may or may not get alot better. However, I can't think of a too many teams that built around tweener and no front court. As it is we have an undersized future PF, and if we pulled off this trade would have one of the worst rebounding/scoring center combos in the NBA.

I am all for getting Harden. Just not for Nash and Gortat.



Where are these analysts? Superstar? That is LeBron level talk. I love Harden but he is no LeBron and never will be IMO.



You might be right about that in terms of Gortat but it all depends on if this team continues to make lackluster moves. However, Harden again is not LeBron. This is not the type of player IMO that is going to be the face of your franchise. He is a GREAT piece no doubt.

I have said all along I don't mind giving up Gortat if your getting a legit big man in return or putting yourself in a position to get a high enough draft pick to get a younger legit big man. I just don't think you trade a legit big man for a PG or Guard-tweener. It's too hard to get legit big men in the NBA. Nobody knows this better than the Suns.

Why does it matter that Harden is not LeBron? So if your not as good as LeBron James, then you can't be the face of a franchise. That's ridiculous and I'm sure you did not mean that. Rose, LMA, Love, Durant, Lawson, Dirk, Hibbert, Gordon, Wall, Ellis, 'Melo, Monroe, Horford are all franchise players. And most of them aren't even close to as good as LeBron yet all their teams are building around them.

Harden can be just as good as Dwayne Wade imo. He's not there yet but he can be. Harden's not far behind in terms of athleticism but Harden has better shooting than Wade. Harden's still going to get better...like I said earlier...he's barely 22.

But even if you disagree on me about him being as good as Wade in the future, you have to admit that he can the face of the franchise for the Suns.

And I agree with you that our defense and rebounding will suck with Perkins instead of Gortat BUT that is the price you pay to get a franchise player. Once we can get a player to build around then we can focus on everything else.

Think about it as restarting this entire team (the adequate word is rebuilding) We trade Gortat away, get Harden and its a brand new team. The only untouchable player on our team is James Harden and everyone else is on the block....then we can focus on getting a big via draft or whatever.

But we need that player first. Because that's the hard thing. Getting role players is a lot easier than getting the franchise player.

IMO get Harden then worry about the rest...and who knows maybe getting Harden may lure Deron here and then Dwight will follow...but even if they don't come, it would still be a good trade cause we finally have someone to build around. I know I'm stressing the importance of "having someone to build around" but I'm telling you man, it's really important.
And also Perkins has trade value...he's a championship center so if a team like Chicago trades Noah for a top 10 pick or something, then Perkins can be an option. Atlanta, Sacramento, Detroit, Portland, San Antonio would all probably be interested in trading for him.

And Harden isn't a "tweener" He's 6'5, 220 lbs...that's great size for a SG and someone as athletic as he is.

 

[sunsfan88]

i really think anyone who wouldn't do Harden for Nash/Gortat is wayyyyyyy over-valuing our own players. Nash has no future on this team and Gortat is a solid big-man, but he's at best a good #4 option on any true contender. As a sixth man at only 31 minutes per game in only his 3rd year, Harden's already shooting 49%, 39% from 3, averaging 17, 4 and 4. You give him starter minutes and he's easily a 21/5/5 guy, who attacks the rim at will. Sure he had a bad finals, but he was freaking en fuego before that. If you can get him at 15 million per, he'd be a fantastic building block for the future. Put him with a likely high lotto pick and tons of cap space next season and you might just convince someone of worth to come here and revitalize the team.

There's no future with Nash and by the time there is a future, Gortat will likely by 30. The team needs to sell high on Gortat while it can IMO.

that being said, the Thunder could get a hell of a lot more for Harden than that package in my opinion.

I agree with this 100%

 

[Phrazbit]

Dont get your hopes up. If the Suns get the chance at Harden it will come next summer in free agency. This idea of a Nash swap (especially one for one) makes no sense for OKC. I am telling you guys, everything that is known about Sam Presti suggest that he would not even momentarily consider this trade. It is a monumental short term risk that has zero upside in the long term. They can contend without Nash, it makes no sense in the long term, it does not fit their currently constructed roster (what is Nash going to do with Westbrook and Durant running ISO for 70% of the game?) Even the idea that it will create open 3 point looks for their role players is silly, they already get those looks!

I love Nash, but you guys are ridiculously inflating his value. He is a free agent, the Suns would be lucky to land a late round pick in a sign and trade, getting a player of Harden's caliber in the swap is completely out of the question.

 

[sunsfan88]

But that's exactly the thing. With Nash, it won't be an iso offense anymore. Westbrook can be the perimeter scorer and Nash and Durant can run pick & rolls/pops with Ibaka and Gortat cleaning up everything.

Plus Nash has the experience, he won't choke in big moments.

OKC is likely to lose Harden in a year anyway so why not trade him for someone who will make the team better next season?

I think your wrong about OKC not willing to trade Harden but I agree that it will probably take more than Nash and Gortat and taking on Perkins horrible contract.

 

[Joe Mama]

i really think anyone who wouldn't do Harden for Nash/Gortat is wayyyyyyy over-valuing our own players. Nash has no future on this team and Gortat is a solid big-man, but he's at best a good #4 option on any true contender. As a sixth man at only 31 minutes per game in only his 3rd year, Harden's already shooting 49%, 39% from 3, averaging 17, 4 and 4. You give him starter minutes and he's easily a 21/5/5 guy, who attacks the rim at will. Sure he had a bad finals, but he was freaking en fuego before that. If you can get him at 15 million per, he'd be a fantastic building block for the future. Put him with a likely high lotto pick and tons of cap space next season and you might just convince someone of worth to come here and revitalize the team.

There's no future with Nash and by the time there is a future, Gortat will likely by 30. The team needs to sell high on Gortat while it can IMO.

that being said, the Thunder could get a hell of a lot more for Harden than that package in my opinion.

took the words right out of my mouth along with what you said about there being almost no chance they are going to break up those three players.

I love Steve Nash, but there's just no way is value around the league is anywhere near as high as some of you guys think. If it was they probably would have moved him around one of the last two trade deadlines. It's either that or you are undervaluing James Harden or possibly a combination of the two.

By the way, I caught quite a bit of flak about a month ago for saying the same thing regarding the thunder moving Westbrook before harden. I love Harden, but if I could take either one of them in a trade right now it would be Westbrook. I wouldn't even have to think that hard about it. In my opinion he's a better player right now, he has a higher ceiling, and just seems to be more competitive than either James Harden or Kevin Durant. I would give Steve Nash, Gortat, and the #13 right now for him. Having said all that,

All that said, I still believe that Matt and I were right the situation in OKC was at least true before the playoffs... that they would have been more likely to move Westbrook than Harden.

Well, this is fun. Now let's get back to reality because none of this as a slow ball's chance in hell of actually happening.

Joe Mama

 

[mojorizen7]

Anything to keep Nash from re-signing here is a good deal to me
Rather keep Gortat,but lets face it....Suns are years away from contending no matter what.

Bottom out with Harden next season and go from there. Compile picks along the way and maneuver them into one or two picks of value.

 

[dodie53]

nash, gortat and pick for beardy boy seems fair.

 

[Phrazbit]

But that's exactly the thing. With Nash, it won't be an iso offense anymore. Westbrook can be the perimeter scorer and Nash and Durant can run pick & rolls/pops with Ibaka and Gortat cleaning up everything.

Plus Nash has the experience, he won't choke in big moments.

OKC is likely to lose Harden in a year anyway so why not trade him for someone who will make the team better next season?

I think your wrong about OKC not willing to trade Harden but I agree that it will probably take more than Nash and Gortat and taking on Perkins horrible contract.

Those arnt pick and pop players. Westbrook and Durant both need the ball in their hands to be effective, and not by catching and shooting. They both create their own opportunities. Nash does not fit the style of Westbrook. He could play with Durant, but having both Nash and Westbrook is superfluous. They cant both have the ball and both need to to be effective.

Nash is no guarantee to make them better even in the short term. It forces their 2nd best player out of position, it dramatically hurts them on defense, and at this point in his career how much better is he really going to make that offense? Their role players already get tons of open looks, Durant is as efficient as he could be, I firmly believe adding Nash only diminishes Westbrook. OKC already proved their current roster can contend, they've gone deeper than Nash ever has, the only guaranteed effect Nash has is he makes them worse defensively and probably shortens their title window by several years. Anything positive he might contribute is not a guarantee.

And I never said OKC would be unwilling to trade Harden, I said they wont trade him for some short term gamble. If they move him it will be in a trade that fits into their future plan for the club. Not some one year panic gamble. Presti will not for a moment ponder adding Nash at the expense of Westbrook.

Something you guys need to sink in is that Nash is a free agent, no one is going to give up high value for a player they could sign for the MLE. There is absolute ZERO chance this trade happens.

 

[sunsfan88]

OKC can't sign Nash as a FA. They don't have the cap.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Wow. I think Harden is being way over valued here. He certainly has potential, but he is still the third option on his own team, which means he has not had the pressure on him that Westbrook and Durant have.

His value is similar to what Joe Johnson was when he was the third wheel on the Suns.

Gortat is a true starting center and those are so rare. He also has an excellent contract. IMO, most on this thread are overvalueing Harden and undervalueing Gortat.

 

[elindholm]

I would give Steve Nash, Gortat, and the #13 right now for (Westbrook).

Along with anything else the Thunder might want, including my left nut. Westbrook will be a top-10 player soon, if he isn't already, and he's only 23. I don't believe for an instant that the Thunder would consider trading him, for any package.

All that said, I still believe that Matt and I were right the situation in OKC was at least true before the playoffs... that they would have been more likely to move Westbrook than Harden.

I doubt it. I think the alleged Durant-Westbrook tension was way overblown. You just don't give up on a talent like that unless the franchise is sinking. It's a hundred times easier to replace Harden than Westbrook.

 

[Mainstreet]

Wow. I think Harden is being way over valued here. He certainly has potential, but he is still the third option on his own team, which means he has not had the pressure on him that Westbrook and Durant have.

His value is similar to what Joe Johnson was when he was the third wheel on the Suns.

Gortat is a true starting center and those are so rare. He also has an excellent contract. IMO, most on this thread are overvalueing Harden and undervalueing Gortat.

I have to agree about the Joe Johnson comparison. I don't think Harden or Westbrook are going anywhere soon unless Harden tries to force his way out after next season like Joe Johnson.

If the Suns are looking to trade Gortat I think they would be better served to let it be known quietly and see what another team may offer rather than try to peddle him for a particular player.

 

[SunsTzu]

His value is similar to what Joe Johnson was when he was the third wheel on the Suns.

You're greatly undervaluing Harden and Johnson was considered a 4th wheel by most at the time.

Harden is likely the best player under 30 at his position.

 

[Joe Mama]

You're greatly undervaluing Harden and Johnson was considered a 4th wheel by most at the time.

Harden is likely the best player under 30 at his position.

am I the only one who thinks that comparing him to Joe Johnson is not undervaluing at all. If he is Joe Johnson this is a no-brainer... it would be a no-brainer for us. This is one of those threads I just can't stay away from even though I still think it's just nonsense. I'll be absolutely shocked if OKC does anything this summer with their big three and Ibaka.

Joe

 

[Mainstreet]

You're greatly undervaluing Harden and Johnson was considered a 4th wheel by most at the time.

Harden is likely the best player under 30 at his position.

I do think the Suns would have been better off trading Marion and keeping Joe Johnson. Johnson was a fourth wheel only because Marion was a proven commodity. IMO, it was obvious Johnson should have been extended for 55M and he was a blooming star. Joe Johnson was more versatile than Marion. Actually I would rather have Joe Johnson over Harden if they were both age 23.

 

[Joe Mama]

I do think the Suns would have been better off trading Marion and keeping Joe Johnson. Johnson was a fourth wheel only because Marion was a proven commodity. IMO, it was obvious Johnson should have been extended for 55M and he was a blooming star. Joe Johnson was more versatile than Marion. Actually I would rather have Joe Johnson over Harden if they were both age 23.

yes, this is what I'm saying. I don't understand how JC can say we are overvaluing James Harden and then in the same post compare him to Joe Johnson. like you, I would rather have a 23-year-old Joe Johnson.

Joe

 

[elindholm]

If he is Joe Johnson this is a no-brainer...

And how has sinking their future in Johnson worked out for the Hawks?

 

[Mainstreet]

And how has sinking their future in Johnson worked out for the Hawks?

IMO, fairly well. They regularly make the playoffs and have a star player. Not bad where they were coming from before Joe Johnson.

 

[Joe Mama]

And how has sinking their future in Johnson worked out for the Hawks?

I think it worked out pretty well actually if you look at where they were when they signed him originally. I'm not sure I would have given him that super max contract, but that's one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't decisions. Besides, I wouldn't say their failings have had as much to do with Joe Johnson as injuries and other players on that team or lack thereof.

Joe Johnson is a really good first option, but his missed ideal role would have been as a perfect #2 option. I'm not sure he was ready to accept that role at the time Atlanta first acquired him. There was talk that he really wanted to go to Atlanta to be the man. I thought he would have been the perfect player next to LeBron James in Cleveland. Then the Cavaliers went and blew their whole wad that summer on the often injured and inconsistent shooting Larry Hughes.

Let's face it, this Phoenix Suns team was much better than they should have been, especially after the All-Star break. We don't have jack and I would give up what little we do have in a heartbeat to get a player the caliber of James Harden or Joe Johnson.

Joe

 

[Covert Rain]

The rumor doesn't make sense for the Suns either. Harden is a good player, probably a borderline All-Star at some point. But he's a #2 player on an above-average team, or a #3 player on a very good team. Whether he's even at the level of a #3 player on a championship team is an open question; right now we'd have to guess No. If you're rebuilding around Harden as your #1, you aren't going anywhere.

Completely agree and what I was saying as well. You don't build around Harden as your #1 which is usually the face of your franchise.

Wow. I think Harden is being way over valued here. He certainly has potential, but he is still the third option on his own team, which means he has not had the pressure on him that Westbrook and Durant have.

His value is similar to what Joe Johnson was when he was the third wheel on the Suns.

Gortat is a true starting center and those are so rare. He also has an excellent contract. IMO, most on this thread are overvalueing Harden and undervalueing Gortat.

+1

IMO, fairly well. They regularly make the playoffs and have a star player. Not bad where they were coming from before Joe Johnson.

Not to mention what have the Hawks have not exactly done a bang up job bringing the guy any help.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I would not be totally opposed to trading Gortat, but he is an effective big and those command a premium.

The surest way to go out of business in any area is to undervalue your own assets. Teams that are close to a championship typically overpay for the missing piece. In this case, OKC cannot get Nash without a trade (cap reasons), and Nash has the reasonable possibility of bringing home the hardware for them. So they are the ones who should overpay.

jmo

 

[Phrazbit]

OKC can't sign Nash as a FA. They don't have the cap.

They can sign him for the MLE, like I said.

 

[Joe Mama]

I would not be totally opposed to trading Gortat, but he is an effective big and those command a premium.

The surest way to go out of business in any area is to undervalue your own assets. Teams that are close to a championship typically overpay for the missing piece. In this case, OKC cannot get Nash without a trade (cap reasons), and Nash has the reasonable possibility of bringing home the hardware for them. So they are the ones who should overpay.

jmo

Totally disagree. If they could acquire him without giving up their third best player... a young player with potential keys have the reasonable possibility of bringing home the hardware. I still don't think Steve Nash is what Oklahoma City really needs.

Joe

 

[devilalum]

Every year we hear rumors like this and the real deal turns out to be something like:

Re-signed Nash for Perkins, Cook and the #28.