Everything wrong with Kyler vs Seattle Part II - Revenge of the checkdown

[cardpa]

You're right there, his anticipation is the biggest problem I am seeing. But again that comes with coaching, study, and experience.

Kliff-Kyler ain't working right now

Lol, hitting Rondale means a throw right about here ~ 30 yards in the air over a DB/LB with two safeties lurking one if which has a much better angle on the ball. Any throw to Rondale there is an easy pick. Nuk should've been the throw for a first but mostly poor play design and should be easier. Too many guys running to the same place and again defense only has to rush 4 and still getting really good push.

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In this frame the ball should have already been thrown and it's a 20 yd pass, not 30. look at the yard markers. Murray should be anticipating Moore going into that space however Murray still thinks he's playing in college where his WRs ran into huge spaces. You see NFL QBs make that type of throw on a regular basis. The LB is too deep to make an INT and is focused on Hopkins coming across so I'm pretty sure his momentun is moving forward not moving backwards. The safety is too deep to make a play on the ball and Moore has inside leverage on the other safety. The deep safety's(bottom of the screen) first responsibility is probably helping to cover the fly route the Cardinal WR at the bottom of the screen is running in case the CB gets beat. That is the most dangerous one because if he doesn't help on that route and it's a completed pass it's a TD for the Cardinals.

 

[cardpa]

It’s funny how you Kliff guys bring up Miami as Tua wasn’t doing none of those good things the last two years under bum Flores and whoever their coordinators were. Near bottom of NFL offense across the board. Tua even benched for Ryan Fitzpatrick and Jacoby Brissett.

Plug in McDaniel and dude is top 5 in the league and Dolphins are rolling. I’m sure you’re also noticing how JD5 is doing having broken free from Herm and is now beating Bama playing for Brian Kelly.

Kliff is not an NFL coach in any capacity. It’s really bizarre that while everybody has acknowledged that Kyler isn’t playing well, just a few guys left who think Kliff the career loser at both levels is somehow putting our players in good positions to succeed. The guy’s teams vary from flat out sucking ass to full on imploding every year of his entire decade-long career yet people defend him like he has something to offer. It’s really strange.

Hell, he wasn't even a good college coach yet somehow Bidiwll and Keim saw him as the second coming of Don Coryell.

 

[cardpa]

Keep hanging his contract over his head, but his big deal doesn’t officially kick in for 2 more years. His salary right now isn’t hampering us. Does Kyler need to play better? Yes, but stop acting as if he’s a top 5 paid Qb right now. Players like Lamar Jackson, Joe Burrow, Justin Herbert, and Jalen Hurts could all get massive pay days before his contract kicks in making him still not in the top 5 for highest paid QBs

So you're excusing him because his cap hit isn't massive until 2024. His cap hit may not be large at this point however his dead cap is. We are stuck with Murray through 2024 and if he doesn't do something to improve over the next two years it will be a continuation of impotent QB play that is unless your okay with taking a $81 million in dead cap space in 2024. His dead cap hit doesn't get reasonable until when it drops to $33 million.

 

[BritCard]

In this frame the ball should have already been thrown and it's a 20 yd pass, not 30. look at the yard markers. Murray should be anticipating Moore going into that space however Murray still thinks he's playing in college where his WRs ran into huge spaces. You see NFL QBs make that type of throw on a regular basis. The LB is too deep to make an INT and is focused on Hopkins coming across so I'm pretty sure his momentun is moving forward not moving backwards. The safety is too deep to make a play on the ball and Moore has inside leverage on the other safety. The deep safety's(bottom of the screen) first responsibility is probably helping to cover the fly route the Cardinal WR at the bottom of the screen is running in case the CB gets beat. That is the most dangerous one because if he doesn't help on that route and it's a completed pass it's a TD for the Cardinals.

Exactly. The ball should be arriving in Moore's hands as this image is taken. It's already too late to throw it, he's already stood in the middle of the window.

Zero anticipation. Zero understanding of what the defense is doing.

 

[BritCard]

It’s funny how you Kliff guys bring up Miami as Tua wasn’t doing none of those good things the last two years under bum Flores and whoever their coordinators were. Near bottom of NFL offense across the board. Tua even benched for Ryan Fitzpatrick and Jacoby Brissett.

Plug in McDaniel and dude is top 5 in the league and Dolphins are rolling. I’m sure you’re also noticing how JD5 is doing having broken free from Herm and is now beating Bama playing for Brian Kelly.

Kliff is not an NFL coach in any capacity. It’s really bizarre that while everybody has acknowledged that Kyler isn’t playing well, just a few guys left who think Kliff the career loser at both levels is somehow putting our players in good positions to succeed. The guy’s teams vary from flat out sucking ass to full on imploding every year of his entire decade-long career yet people defend him like he has something to offer. It’s really strange.

There are no Kliff guys.

Saying Kyler sucks this year and it's Kyler's fault does not make you a Kliff guy.

When you Stans make these point you conveniently forget that Kyler was good until week 13 last year. MVP candidate good.

Did Kliff not coach him then or did he "uncoach" him this year?

What position is Kliff not putting Kyler in? Is not giving him open guys on practically every play not putting him in a position to succeed? Did Kliff not create the guy open for 15 yards when Kyler throws a 4 yard check down? What better gift could Kliff give him?

You then go on to say that his teams vary from "flat out sucking ass to full on imploding" when the truth is that he has 1 losing season in 3 here so far. At the start of this season he had a 24-24 record bringing through a rookie QB.

Living in reality and liking facts is not being a Kliff guy.

 

[AZfaninMN]

So you're excusing him because his cap hit isn't massive until 2024. His cap hit may not be large at this point however his dead cap is. We are stuck with Murray through 2024 and if he doesn't do something to improve over the next two years it will be a continuation of impotent QB play that is unless your okay with taking a $81 million in dead cap space in 2024. His dead cap hit doesn't get reasonable until when it drops to $33 million.

Where am I excusing him in this post? I mention that he keeps hanging his large contract over his head, yet this season his contract isn’t even an issue. Murray is our QB until 2027 minimum. That’s when his dead cap hit is down around $7m. I can’t imagine they would do it the year before for $20m

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Brit doesn't understand NFL passing windows. 80% of the players he says are "open" aren't unless some insanely low percentage perfect throw is executed. There's a couple plays left on the field by Kyler there but not nearly to the degree of what is being presented. There are certainly no easy pitch and catch type plays that you see in well-designed and executed offenses.

Also what I noticed is that Seattle never rushes more than 4 and how deep their LB's play. Zero threat of a running game and 2nd/3rd and longs don't make any quarterbacks life easy, like starting an at-bat down no balls and one strike. The entire offense is an absolute mess - Kyler is rattled, zero run game by our RB's, top heavy receiving depth chart with no depth, and terrible offensive line play.

This is what I’ve noticed too. The myth of wide open receivers. Sure, if you pause the play at exactly the right time some might look open. This thread is a great example. Brit has a criticism for essentially every play prior to Mao’s post. Few of those plays had truly open receivers. The handoffs to safeties are on time and the supposed windows aren’t really there.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I only was able to get through the first rep but this is where I disagree with you. In the first video, Kyler should see press pre-snap and understand that it looks like cover 2 or cover 4. That leaves two areas to attack, the gap between the CB and the S outside and the deep middle over the LB and between the S. He immediately checks down to Ertz despite the CB on McBride missing the jam which is the obvious place to deliver the ball. It is even on the left side of the field so it is within his visual progression.

So, this highlights a problem with Kyler. Makes up his mind before the ball is snapped and does not confirm post snap which is very low level QB play. Basically he has no ability to take advantage of errors by the defense because he isn't looking for them.

The McBride play is the only one I saw a legit obvious missed option. The issue is we don’t know what kylers designed progression is supposed to be.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Put your money where your mouth is or be quiet. That goes for everyone.

If you are just going to say "You're wrong" without being bothered to point out specific plays and make your points in a mature and constructive manner and just going to assume you are lazy and don't know what you are talking about.

Lol. Okay. Sorry bud now that I’ve taken the time to read one these threads and watch the plays you’re just wrong. Not obsessed enough to write up each one. But your definition of wide open shows a fundamental lack of understanding how defenses work and the speed of nfl players. I’m seeing a ton of “nowhere to throw the ball.”

 

[DVontel]

Lol. Okay. Sorry bud now that I’ve taken the time to read one these threads and watch the plays you’re just wrong. Not obsessed enough to write up each one. But your definition of wide open shows a fundamental lack of understanding how defenses work and the speed of nfl players. I’m seeing a ton of “nowhere to throw the ball.”

I find it funny how folks who hold a high position in the football media have criticized Kliff for his offensive design & play-calling, but a few posters think differently. Acting as if Kliff should maybe get the benefit of the doubt like he’s McVay or Reid.

 

[HairZach]

I find it funny how folks who hold a high position in the football media have criticized Kliff for his offensive design & play-calling, but a few posters think differently. Acting as if Kliff should maybe get the benefit of the doubt like he’s McVay or Reid.

I mean they've praised him too. It's media, they compliment a coach who is winning and criticize a coach who is losing. It means nothing. McVay's offense is worse than ours this year btw.

 

[kerouac9]

I find it funny how folks who hold a high position in the football media have criticized Kliff for his offensive design & play-calling, but a few posters think differently. Acting as if Kliff should maybe get the benefit of the doubt like he’s McVay or Reid.

Yeah that’s tough for me. Depends on who you’re taking about specifically in national media, but like the Ringer guys i think see Kyler Murray and his talent and underperformance and have to point the finger somewhere.

 

[DVontel]

Yeah that’s tough for me. Depends on who you’re taking about specifically in national media, but like the Ringer guys i think see Kyler Murray and his talent and underperformance and have to point the finger somewhere.

One of the guys at the Ringer, Steven Ruiz, has criticized Kliff’s offense a lot, even during the early part of last season. He’s not the only one there that has, either.

 

[kerouac9]

One of the guys at the Ringer, Steven Ruiz, has criticized Kliff’s offense a lot, even during the early part of last season. He’s not the only one there that has, either.

Yeah. I dunno how much tape he’s breaking down of the Cards versus seeing Kyler have success when the plays break down to backyard football and asking what value Kliff is adding.

 

[DVontel]

Yeah. I dunno how much tape he’s breaking down of the Cards versus seeing Kyler have success when the plays break down to backyard football and asking what value Kliff is adding.

Here’s a article he made after last season’s week one win over Tennessee. It’s a good & interesting read.

Are Kyler Murray and Kliff Kingsbury Finally Hitting Their Stride?

After a massive win over the Titans on Sunday, the Cardinals offense looks like a force to be reckoned with. But was that performance a Week 1 aberration, or a sign of things to come?

www.theringer.com

 

[nashman]

I mean they've praised him too. It's media, they compliment a coach who is winning and criticize a coach who is losing. It means nothing. McVay's offense is worse than ours this year btw.

Super Bowl and track record for McVay just a little different than Kliffy btw…

 

[Jetstream Green]

I will say this, if it is really true that Kyler's character and lack of studying is the main culprit, then I want Jeff Blake, the original Leon, to be his QB coach for entertainment

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[BritCard]

After 9 pages of arguing with people trying to say it Kliff/O line/scheme/fairies and not Kyler I'll leave you with this

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[Stout]

After 9 pages of arguing with people trying to say it Kliff/O line/scheme/fairies and not Kyler I'll leave you with this

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Yeah, it's sad to watch a few holdouts making all sorts of excuses as to why Colt did soooooooooo much better.

 

[Jetstream Green]

After 9 pages of arguing with people trying to say it Kliff/O line/scheme/fairies and not Kyler I'll leave you with this

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Then please just leave it at that, you keep going on and on now like an ice machine when you are finally right about something lol

 

[AZfaninMN]

After 9 pages of arguing with people trying to say it Kliff/O line/scheme/fairies and not Kyler I'll leave you with this

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After being one of the guys who argued with you on this topic I’ll say this:

I still think the Oline didn’t play well, almost no running game and some of the times when colt hit his back foot still faced pressure.

Kliff called the best game of the season, minus the screen game, by having Colt under center, creative playcalling (fake screen to hit Hop for 11), and I never said Kyler wasn’t the problem. Peyton Manning made Adam Gase competent. My whole point was Kyler isn’t the sole contributor to all our problems. He’s just head commander on the field.

 

[BritCard]

After being one of the guys who argued with you on this topic I’ll say this:

I still think the Oline didn’t play well, almost no running game and some of the times when colt hit his back foot still faced pressure.

Kliff called the best game of the season, minus the screen game, by having Colt under center, creative playcalling (fake screen to hit Hop for 11), and I never said Kyler wasn’t the problem. Peyton Manning made Adam Gase competent. My whole point was Kyler isn’t the sole contributor to all our problems. He’s just head commander on the field.

Do we really thing that Kliff called his best game AND a 3rd string O line did well AND the receivers performed better (including an AJ TD) and all that happened despite Kyler being out and not because he was out?

McCoy was under center more because he's happy doing it, Kyler isn't. The receivers and O line looked better and the passing attack more fluid because McCoy can read a defense and throw with timing and rhythm.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Do we really thing that Kliff called his best game

Yes. Kliff FINALLY schemed his play calling to not allow Donald beat him. How many times have we asked him to do that? The big question is WHY he did it this game. The average time to throw was lowest since what, Warner? Is it because he thought that Kyler could beat Donald and didn't need to despite history saying otherwise? Or did he think that Colt could handle the scheme change? No one will ever know.

AND a 3rd string O line did well

Yes

AND the receivers performed better (including an AJ TD)

Yes

and all that happened despite Kyler being out and not because he was out?

Not sure. But it could be.

McCoy was under center more because he's happy doing it, Kyler isn't. The receivers and O line looked better and the passing attack more fluid because McCoy can read a defense and throw with timing and rhythm.

Whether you see it, or believe it, there was an absolute scheme/play calling change. That absolutely contributed to Colt's and the Cards offensive success. Would Kyler have done the same, maybe. Probably not though considering his play so far this year. I certainly won't 'drop a mic' claiming to be omnipotent.

 

[daves]

Whether you see it, or believe it, there was an absolute scheme/play calling change.

Are you just assuming that the scheme must've been different since the outcome was different, or can you explain exactly what the scheme change was?

Without seeing and comparing the all-22 footage from both games, I certainly can't. As for play calling, the run/pass mix for the first half was almost identical. As for scheme, I saw a lot of the familiar WR screens that we all love to hate. Aside from seeing the offense look more competent and effective, I didn't notice anything new or unusual in the play design or the mix of plays.

As @Harry said in another thread:

I’m not sure the game plan was dramatically different for McCoy, but he’s not a great deep thrower. So deep routes were seldom thrown. The plan just seemed better because the execution was focused on the defensive alignment, not the play design.

...dave

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Are you just assuming that the scheme must've been different since the outcome was different, or can you explain exactly what the scheme change was?

Without seeing and comparing the all-22 footage from both games, I certainly can't. As for play calling, the run/pass mix for the first half was almost identical. As for scheme, I saw a lot of the familiar WR screens that we all love to hate. Aside from seeing the offense look more competent and effective, I didn't notice anything new or unusual in the play design or the mix of plays.

As @Harry said in another thread:


...dave

I thought it was clear, but I will re-explain. There was a definite scheme change to have the ball out of the QBs hand as quickly as possible. The stats have been published already.