Everything wrong with Kyler vs Seattle Part II - Revenge of the checkdown

[BritCard]

Again this how much he gets paid garbage is not a good argument, QBs get paid slotted so to speak it’s not like they had any choice. Let him hold out or walk then what you look like the cheapest moron organization in the league as most believe and rightfully so he is the biggest talent in the whole damn team! It’s not your money and guys who get big bucks suck all the time it’s professional sports deal with it. People were talking MVP talk when he wasn’t surrounded by trash and was performing well, he didn’t just forget how to play football. Lots of things are creating this whole mess on offense, he is part of it but not the main issue. This team has lots of issues and Kyler should be way down on the list, he is your QB already signed him so need to fix other things that will make the team function period!

He demanded to get paid early when the team obviously was not sure and he demanded to be paid top money. It's not automatic, lot's of QB's have been paid below market rates.

Dak Prescott signed for $40m when the market rate was $45m+. Both Mahomes and Allen were getting more. Ryan Tannehill signed a $29.5m APY contract well below market rate the year before and he's led the Titans to the #1 seed in the AFC 2 years on the trot. Kirk Cousins signed a $35m extension this offseason.

He released memos to the press that contained paragraphs about how great he was and about how much he'd improved the team. This was after laying a huge egg in his first playoff game. He scrubbed his socials. He made a whole huge deal about getting paid top money.

And as fans we said "Ok, now show us what you can do". And what he can do is the lowest YPA in the league and a 3-6 record with one of the worst passing offenses in the league.

Kyler is the main issue by far.

 

[BritCard]

Who decided to bring back the ancient IOL Pugh and Hudson? Who thought that was a good idea? Or re-signing oft-injured Conner, or bringing back the Barbarian, or signing Darrel Williams? Who built the WR room? Oh yeah--Keim did! This roster was not nearly as good as last year, and last year's wasn't good enough for a SB run.

Good QB play would have helped a lot this year. I doubt good QB play would have replicated even our record last year, though. Might have been enough to squeak into the playoffs, but we'll never know.

Come on man. Pugh has been solid for years, barely missed any time. Hudson missed 1 game in 6 seasons before coming here. You're criticizing decisions with hindsight that no GM could predict.

 

[Stout]

Come on man. Pugh has been solid for years, barely missed any time. Hudson missed 1 game in 6 seasons before coming here. You're criticizing decisions with hindsight that no GM could predict.

They had to be begged out of retirement and cajoled into coming back. Plus, age. Plus, Hudson didn't do well last year. Who could possibly have predicted a train wreck on the OL? Hmm...

I'll give you Hernandez. I didn't think he'd be good, and he has been. Of course, now he's hurt lol FML

 

[BritCard]

They had to be begged out of retirement and cajoled into coming back. Plus, age. Plus, Hudson didn't do well last year. Who could possibly have predicted a train wreck on the OL? Hmm...

I'll give you Hernandez. I didn't think he'd be good, and he has been. Of course, now he's hurt lol FML

Hudson had to be cajoled out of retirement, not Pugh. That's still no indication that they would get injured.

Pugh has been a solid signing and a real team player. He's taken pay cuts to help the team. He can hardly help his ACL tear.

Hudson I'll give you on the basis that it's less likely any player contemplating retirement is going to be 100% all in. The injury issues nobody could foresee, that's just bad luck.

But then also they really had no choice but to convince him to come back because the dead money had he retired was $11m and I don;t recall much but relief from most people here when he did come back.

 

[BritCard]

So into Q3 and Drive 6 of the game.

This is 2nd down after the obligatory 1st down run for 2 yards. This is one area Kliff is at fault. We run on 1st down at a very high rate. It's almost automatic.

There doesn't look much wrong here on the face of it but it is a good example of the issues with the offense. Taking the easy checkdown the defense gives you to put you in a 3rd down situation when 1st downs are available and Kyler's lack of patience.

Just wait a beat and Rondale is open for an easy first down on the dig and Kyler should KNOW this from the leverage the CB takes immediately post snap. He's going to be open all day.

The usual suspects are going to say "But there is a safety 6 yards away that can break on the ball". If that is thrown on time as Rondale is about to break the safety has no chance. They are quick, they are not magic. That's an easy NFL throw.

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Instead of a 1st down we are now in a 3rd and 5 situation.

I have no idea what Kyler is doing here. He has a clean pocket. He actually steps forward into the pressure to force himself to then bug out. There is absolutely no need for him to leap forward into the linemen or leave the pocket.

If he just stays back he has Ertz wide open for a 10 yard gain and 1st down or Rondale for an easy checkdown for 1st down.

Anderson is there for the catch but its a badly thrown pass out of bounds. I'd like to see Rondale going downfield here too. He has a bunch of green in front of him and it's a pass Kyler can throw up and let Rondale adjust to.

Both angles here so you can see the pocket Kyler had.

Drive over. And these 2 plays are really the crux of the issue with this offense. Not taking 1st downs when they are available and forcing ourselves into tough 3rd down situations we inevitable mess up.

Outside the occasional screen there is absolutely nothing wrong with the play calls or play designs. The defenses have not "figured Kliff out". Kyler is simply playing Mayfield and Darnold level football.

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[jf-08]

I wonder if Keim is going to print these out and put these on kyler's locker room chair.

 

[BritCard]

Drive 7 Q3

The first play of the drive was one I mentioned yesterday where the safety (Neal) shows the blitz early and Kyler gets sacked. The sack was on Hump.

This was actually Kyler's first sack of the game midway through Q3. Up until this point the O-Line really hasn't been bad in pass pro. The run game has sucked, Price had is bad snap, they fluffed some screens but in pass pro it's been fine. Lots of clean pockets.

Here's the 2nd play of the drive and I'm really only showing this for comedy value. It's the ultimate Kliff play. A fake screen to an actual screen that gains 1 yard.

It's so bad that Kyler practically point's at Rondale pre snap and says "I'm passing it to you Rondale. Really. Nothing fake about this at all". Them Hump goes out that way to "block". While Conner goes the other side. Absolutely nobody falls for it.

Sorry for the skipped frames, that's in the NFL footage.

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So here we are again in something like 3rd and 18. This time none of it is on Kyler. Although when the blitz was obvious on 1st down I really want to see him audible for a hot route.

The 3rd down play is the double pass and we all know what happened there.

This is the first drive where Kyler didn't screw something up. It was a mix of O line, play calls and Dortch.

But there is a distinct feeling in the play calls that Kliff is frustrated with Kyler missing opportunities and is taking it out of his hands with screens and trick plays to try get something going.

On the next Seahawks drive Zaven picks off Smith and we go up 14-10. Then Seahawks score after the OPI and Drive 8 will be 17-14.

 

[Stout]

Hudson had to be cajoled out of retirement, not Pugh. That's still no indication that they would get injured.

Pugh has been a solid signing and a real team player. He's taken pay cuts to help the team. He can hardly help his ACL tear.

Hudson I'll give you on the basis that it's less likely any player contemplating retirement is going to be 100% all in. The injury issues nobody could foresee, that's just bad luck.

But then also they really had no choice but to convince him to come back because the dead money had he retired was $11m and I don;t recall much but relief from most people here when he did come back.

Has been is the key word. They not only brough back an aging (or aged) player, Keim was counting on HIM to be the depth for our semi-retired Center. Not a good plan for 2/3 of your IOL. And who made the trade/has the contract that we couldn't get out of for Hudson? Why did they have "no choice?"

 

[BritCard]

Drive 8 - 2:43 left in the 3rd

It's 17-14 and the game is still for the taking.

1st down. Continuing the theme of Kliff giving up on passing his way out of this it's a designed run for Kyler.

I like the play design and it should have worked well. Sadly Cody Ford is involved so it was never going to go well. Blocks his block allowing the edge to get to Kyler.

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The next play on 2nd down is an Eno run for about 2 yards. No point in showing it as it looks like every Eno run. Kliff has blatantly given up on pass now having called Fake Screen to Screen, double pass trick play, Kyler run and Eno run on 4 successive plays. There are no other sections like this in the game so far.

Now in 3rd and 8 Kliff has no choice but to go back to the passing game and we get lucky. Or more accurately Rondale does well with the very obvious checkdown they let us have to break tackles and get the 1st.

But look at Hopkins. Hell look at EVERYONE. A 30 yard pass to Hopkins could be a TD here easily. He's one 1 vs 1 with a safety with Anderson in the vicinity to block.

Ertz is also miles open on a comeback for a 15-20 yard gain if Kyler just has a little more patience or anticipation.

If you can't make that pass from a clean pocket on 3rd and 8 to your WR1 why are you playing football? We're trying to extend the drive and win the game. This is a pass Kyler made at least 20 times last year.

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1st down and 10.

You're all going to remember this play as Cody Ford sacking Kyler. But did he? It wasn't Ford's fault.

I'm sure the Stans will say "You just blame Kyler for everything" but watch.

The 1st thing you see here is that for someone that has checked the ball down all game he ignores the quick slant to Rondale. Fair enough, I want him to although this is the one time he should.

I've had to watch this about 10 times from both angles. Originally it looks like Kyler panics at Irvin on the Edge when Hump has him under control but if you watch from the EZ angle it's actually Poona Ford on Leccy Smith that causes the problem. Just ashe steps up to run through the B gap Cody Ford thinks "I'm free. I'll go help Hump with that Edge rusher" and the 2 collide.

That's not on Ford it was just bad luck. If that B gap wasn't there Kyler probably roles to his right into all that space. Which is a shame because had Leccy not had his worse rep of the game he has Ertz wide open for a big gain. He has Hopkins open for a big gain with his hand in the air shouting "WTF man. Again?"

On a side note Ertz is open all the time. He could easily have a 1000 yard season. Not just a little open. Like 5 yards open constantly. The dude spends have his snaps stood there waving his arms around.

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That puts us in 2nd and 17. Next play is a Kyler run up the middle for 7 leaving us with 3rd and 9.


What happens next isn't on Kyler. It's a bad rep by Price and Kyler is sacked quickly.

At the same time this is 3rd and 9 to start the 4th quarter with 3 points in the game. The Seahawks are going to bring pressure here and I think any QB would be thinking they need to get the ball out quick.

And there is an option. When Kyler gets to the back of his drop he starts to hitch but then curls up. Ertz is open with some anticipation on the throw. Is it there? Does he have time?

It would have been a great play had he made it for sure. But I think Brady, Rodgers, Allen, Mahomes etc are getting the ball out there and taking the hit.

Drive over.

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[BritCard]

Has been is the key word. They not only brough back an aging (or aged) player, Keim was counting on HIM to be the depth for our semi-retired Center. Not a good plan for 2/3 of your IOL. And who made the trade/has the contract that we couldn't get out of for Hudson? Why did they have "no choice?"

Hindsight again. You were all for the Hudson trade and extension.

There is no way anybody could know Hudson would go from missing 1 game in 6 to 10 in 2. Or that he would consider hanging it up after last season.

 

[DVontel]

They had to be begged out of retirement and cajoled into coming back. Plus, age. Plus, Hudson didn't do well last year. Who could possibly have predicted a train wreck on the OL? Hmm...

I'll give you Hernandez. I didn't think he'd be good, and he has been. Of course, now he's hurt lol FML

What nashman is to Kyler is what BritCard is to Keim. Going to defend their guys at all costs, lol.

 

[phillycard]

How is it trash play calling? There are always people open. You mean the 2-3 busted screens a game?

BC, love ya bro but it IS trash playcalling. This offense moves as smoothly as a car with 4 different-sized tires. You did a great job illustrating Kyler's shortcomings. That ball HAS to be out on the first read! While some may disagree on the degree of openness, he needs to deliver that ball to whichever receiver breaks in space. NFL throws if you will. For the Cardinals moving the ball efficiently comes only when something ELSE happens (penalty, Kyler scramble, extra effort play like Eno's) We have no flow or cohesion, and it seems to be made even worse when KK faces a coach like McVay, Carroll, etc. who could outcoach him in his sleep. He overcompensates with plays looking straight out of a schoolyard recess. Could you actually count on this offense to put together a drive if/when it matters? The answer is 100% no. Trash offense.

 

[BritCard]

BC, love ya bro but it IS trash playcalling. This offense moves as smoothly as a car with 4 different-sized tires. You did a great job illustrating Kyler's shortcomings. That ball HAS to be out on the first read! While some may disagree on the degree of openness, he needs to deliver that ball to whichever receiver breaks in space. NFL throws if you will. For the Cardinals moving the ball efficiently comes only when something ELSE happens (penalty, Kyler scramble, extra effort play like Eno's) We have no flow or cohesion, and it seems to be made even worse when KK faces a coach like McVay, Carroll, etc. who could outcoach him in his sleep. He overcompensates with plays looking straight out of a schoolyard recess. Could you actually count on this offense to put together a drive if/when it matters? The answer is 100% no. Trash offense.

Yes, but the reason for that is that Kyler is playing bad.

You can have a Ferrari 296GTS but if you have a drunk toddler at the steering wheel it's going to be pretty crap.

There's no rhythm because were leaving about 200 yards a game on the field.

Yes there are other issues but a 5 yard false start penalty isn't so bad when you just moved 30 yards in 3 plays. It's a lot worse when you moved 8 yards.

 

[BritCard]

Drive 9 we score to get back within 3 but it takes 14 plays and 4 minutes to go 75 yards.

There are a lot of Conner runs and a lot of checkdowns to Rondale. There's a play where Kyler bails the pocket and throws it away for no reason when he had a clean pocket and a play where he fumbles the snap inside the 10 that wasted a down but it's uneventful enough to not be of interest to anyone.

Seahawks score on the next drive and it's game over.

 

[phillycard]

Yes, but the reason for that is that Kyler is playing bad.

You can have a Ferrari 296GTS but if you have a drunk toddler at the steering wheel it's going to be pretty crap.

There's no rhythm because were leaving about 200 yards a game on the field.

Yes there are other issues but a 5 yard false start penalty isn't so bad when you just moved 30 yards in 3 plays. It's a lot worse when you moved 8 yards.

Okay, bet. Then you and I are on the same page then. I've bout had it with the K1 tantrums and the yelling btw. It was needed at the moment in the Saints game, but him yelling at Nuk after a failed 3rd and 18 is disgraceful.

 

[BritCard]

Okay, bet. Then you and I are on the same page then. I've bout had it with the K1 tantrums and the yelling btw. It was needed at the moment in the Saints game, but him yelling at Nuk after a failed 3rd and 18 is disgraceful.

The irony is that it should be Nuk shouting at Kyler.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Hudson had to be cajoled out of retirement, not Pugh.

LOL, you keep saying this but just because you say it doesn't make it true!

Justin Pugh thought he was going to retire after 2021 season

After taking a pay cut in 2021, he was ready to call it a career. Now he is back for his 10th season in the league and fifth with the Cardinals.

cardswire.usatoday.com

 

[PACardsFan]

I agree, you have to take what the defense gives you. Do you think Kyler is taking what the defense gives him, or taking what the defense baits him?

Probably a little of both. And that applies to almost every QB in the NFL right now. KK implores his offense to stay within the system. All you have to do is listen to interviews from guys like Moore, Ertz, etc (everyone except Hop) & it’s clear that he has programmed Murray to just get the ball out quickly. Forget about it on 3rd & longs. Teams know we’re passing & just dominate our IOL. The only chance we have of converting on those plays are when there’s a sliver of an opening & Murray runs. And shame on Murray for his 2 fumbles against Seattle that would have been scoring drives in close games. One was a great strip by the defense, the other was Murray’s fault 100%. Bottom line, with a pathetic OL & no running game (we’re better with a healthy Conners, but he’s never healthy long enough) Kingsbury’s system does NOT fit the talents of Murray.

 

[TRW]

I think I get it. I don't need to see any more. Thanks for the effort Brit but I'm out on any more of these you post.

 

[reebokalone2001]

Sounds good in theory but doesn’t really work that way. Bidwill didn’t want to be trashed in the media for being cheap with our franchise QB. Kliff is doubted by the league much more than Kyler. Now the other two extensions were freaking moronic no doubt!

True, there was absolutely no way I am handing out those extensions yo Keim and Kliff last summer if I was the owner. They have not earned it at all.

 

[reebokalone2001]

Probably a little of both. And that applies to almost every QB in the NFL right now. KK implores his offense to stay within the system. All you have to do is listen to interviews from guys like Moore, Ertz, etc (everyone except Hop) & it’s clear that he has programmed Murray to just get the ball out quickly. Forget about it on 3rd & longs. Teams know we’re passing & just dominate our IOL. The only chance we have of converting on those plays are when there’s a sliver of an opening & Murray runs. And shame on Murray for his 2 fumbles against Seattle that would have been scoring drives in close games. One was a great strip by the defense, the other was Murray’s fault 100%. Bottom line, with a pathetic OL & no running game (we’re better with a healthy Conners, but he’s never healthy long enough) Kingsbury’s system does NOT fit the talents of Murray.

Then he should be fired solely based on this statement if true. We are constant on third and long, and if he as the play caller gives up in those situations, how could he expect his players to execute the play he calls to convert them?

 

[Dayman]

Come on man. Pugh has been solid for years, barely missed any time. Hudson missed 1 game in 6 seasons before coming here. You're criticizing decisions with hindsight that no GM could predict.

Pugh had missed 13 games in his 4 years in AZ prior to this year. The year before he signed here, he missed 8 games. Dude has been injured on and off his entire career, as evidenced by only playing 2 full seasons out of 10.

Not only could GMs predict he would get hurt, plenty of posters here predicted it. I know I did.

 

[DaHilg]

Come on man. Pugh has been solid for years, barely missed any time. Hudson missed 1 game in 6 seasons before coming here. You're criticizing decisions with hindsight that no GM could predict.

Pugh sucks…. We should have cut him in the off season and used that $9mm else where.

 

[Krangodnzr]

Drive 8 - 2:43 left in the 3rd

It's 17-14 and the game is still for the taking.

1st down. Continuing the theme of Kliff giving up on passing his way out of this it's a designed run for Kyler.

I like the play design and it should have worked well. Sadly Cody Ford is involved so it was never going to go well. Blocks his block allowing the edge to get to Kyler.

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The next play on 2nd down is an Eno run for about 2 yards. No point in showing it as it looks like every Eno run. Kliff has blatantly given up on pass now having called Fake Screen to Screen, double pass trick play, Kyler run and Eno run on 4 successive plays. There are no other sections like this in the game so far.

Now in 3rd and 8 Kliff has no choice but to go back to the passing game and we get lucky. Or more accurately Rondale does well with the very obvious checkdown they let us have to break tackles and get the 1st.

But look at Hopkins. Hell look at EVERYONE. A 30 yard pass to Hopkins could be a TD here easily. He's one 1 vs 1 with a safety with Anderson in the vicinity to block.

Ertz is also miles open on a comeback for a 15-20 yard gain if Kyler just has a little more patience or anticipation.

If you can't make that pass from a clean pocket on 3rd and 8 to your WR1 why are you playing football? We're trying to extend the drive and win the game. This is a pass Kyler made at least 20 times last year.

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1st down and 10.

You're all going to remember this play as Cody Ford sacking Kyler. But did he? It wasn't Ford's fault.

I'm sure the Stans will say "You just blame Kyler for everything" but watch.

The 1st thing you see here is that for someone that has checked the ball down all game he ignores the quick slant to Rondale. Fair enough, I want him to although this is the one time he should.

I've had to watch this about 10 times from both angles. Originally it looks like Kyler panics at Irvin on the Edge when Hump has him under control but if you watch from the EZ angle it's actually Poona Ford on Leccy Smith that causes the problem. Just ashe steps up to run through the B gap Cody Ford thinks "I'm free. I'll go help Hump with that Edge rusher" and the 2 collide.

That's not on Ford it was just bad luck. If that B gap wasn't there Kyler probably roles to his right into all that space. Which is a shame because had Leccy not had his worse rep of the game he has Ertz wide open for a big gain. He has Hopkins open for a big gain with his hand in the air shouting "WTF man. Again?"

On a side note Ertz is open all the time. He could easily have a 1000 yard season. Not just a little open. Like 5 yards open constantly. The dude spends have his snaps stood there waving his arms around.

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That puts us in 2nd and 17. Next play is a Kyler run up the middle for 7 leaving us with 3rd and 9.


What happens next isn't on Kyler. It's a bad rep by Price and Kyler is sacked quickly.

At the same time this is 3rd and 9 to start the 4th quarter with 3 points in the game. The Seahawks are going to bring pressure here and I think any QB would be thinking they need to get the ball out quick.

And there is an option. When Kyler gets to the back of his drop he starts to hitch but then curls up. Ertz is open with some anticipation on the throw. Is it there? Does he have time?

It would have been a great play had he made it for sure. But I think Brady, Rodgers, Allen, Mahomes etc are getting the ball out there and taking the hit.

Drive over.

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I've noticed HOW open Ertz is nearly every play as well. Murray is fricking scared man. He's just scared to sling it. That's what I'm seeing in all of this. He needs to get his confidence back.

 

[Russ Smith]

Come on man. Pugh has been solid for years, barely missed any time. Hudson missed 1 game in 6 seasons before coming here. You're criticizing decisions with hindsight that no GM could predict.

Disagree both guys wanted to retire. It was forseeable that it wouldn't work well. Maybe not that both would miss most of teh first half of the year, and Pugh most of the year, but it was very forseeable that relying on 2 guys who wanted to retire might backfire