Fire D'Antoni!

[mojorizen7]

Anybody want to revisit this?

I told others I would lay low for a month and not mention this thread - however, what has D'Antoni changed? He still erroneously relies on Diaw too much, he doesn't stress defense, and he runs our starters into the ground because he refuses to play the bench. No player development, no defense (no team rebounding), tired starters = bad coaching, failure in post-season.

This coach and his system is the problem. I know the Suns have the 3rd best record in the league - but is there anyone here that believes they can beat San Antonio? Boston? Utah? Houston? Dallas? Golden State? in a seven game series?

Here I go again ... I almost hope the Suns lose to the Spurs, the Jazz, the Lakers, and the Mavericks in humiliating fashion, just so D'Antoni will be fulling exposed. The Suns have a talent laden squad, so why can't they win a championship - the coaching has sold 'em out.

Yeah, a mid-season firing won't do any good. I agree. I would like, however, to see everyone jump on board in hopes of forcing D'Antoni to change his style. In hopes of Sarver making a deal for a body down low that will play defense, rebound and chew up minutes (20 or so). Playing this way will not bring a championship this year, next year, or ever.

OK, go ahead and pile on again... but dare I say, some of you have started to see the light?

I'm with ya TucsonDevil.
I can also understand the need by many fans to resist the growing reality that is the future of this Sarver owned, D'Antoni lead SUNS team.

Like it or not....Championship basketball is ugly these days. And as for myself(and many others i suspect), i'll be more than happy to see the SUNS get with the championship program & build a team thats built to win PLAYOFF games. That includes signing guys that can't shoot, but can defend & rebound with the big boys. That includes signing a few physically & mentally tough guys with some skills that won't just wave at the opposition as they come down the lane for uncontested layups.(Not you Raja)

The SUNS are a pretty team that intimidates no one in a 7-game playoff series...yet we will be forced to be "entertained" by an entertaining brand of basketball that sell's tickets & win's a ton of regular season games until Nash retires, DA gets canned, or the wheels fall off.

Does anyone out there really believe that ANY of these teams would be the slightest bit afraid to meet the SUNS in a 7 game series?
SPURS
CELTICS
JAZZ
PISTONS
MAGIC
LAKERS

It's debatable but IMO...no.

 

[cly2tw]

Does anyone out there really believe that ANY of these teams would be the slightest bit afraid to meet the SUNS in a 7 game series?
SPURS
CELTICS
JAZZ
PISTONS
MAGIC
LAKERS

It's debatable but IMO...no.

And don't forget Warriors and Nuggets, and now the Heats too.

 

[cly2tw]

Not only that, I'm pretty sure he's to blame for global warming.

Your logic? Since DA is not to blame for global warming, the Suns are fine and everything is vanilla ice cream?

"Hey fellow Suns fans, what's the fuss all about? DA is not blame for the global warming for God's sake!"

 

[mojorizen7]

Your logic? Since DA is not to blame for global warming, the Suns are fine and everything is vanilla ice cream?

"Hey fellow Suns fans, what's the fuss all about? DA is not blame for the global warming for God's sake!"

If D'Antoni WAS to blame for global warming...... it'd be entertaining and fun to watch though.

 

[Errntknght]

I'm probably the only one on here that is very critical of D'Antoni but doesn't want him to change his style - IMO, the only hope for this team is for Mike make heavy use of his bench and push the tempo to the limit for 48 minutes, every game. In short, I think he's not doing what he needs to do to wring the maximum out of this team playing his style - he's too conservative or to put it in slang, he hasn't got the balls for it.

It seems risky to depend on guys like Banks and Strawberry (and I wouldn't even discount Tucker) but with the performances we've seen so far from some of his favorites I can't imagine them hurting the team at all. At least, we wouldn't be seeing the team dying from sheer lack of energy. And we would have added a fair amount of defensive grit, which has been sorely needed.

He's already running out of time to do it - we had a schedule that was tailor made for bringing the bench into action and somewhat up to speed but now we're heading into a much stiffer brand of competition. IMO, it still needs to be done and it needs all thats left of the season to get rid of the worst of the rough edges.

I started out the pre-season with this view of what needed to be done and I had a faint hope that D'Antoni would realize the rest of the league had gained ground on the Suns tempo so the only thing to do was raise the bar still higher. And there is the fact that our tempo last year was clearly not enough to run past the Spurs.

 

[cly2tw]

I'm probably the only one on here that is very critical of D'Antoni but doesn't want him to change his style - IMO, the only hope for this team is for Mike make heavy use of his bench and push the tempo to the limit for 48 minutes, every game. In short, I think he's not doing what he needs to do to wring the maximum out of this team playing his style - he's too conservative or to put it in slang, he hasn't got the balls for it.

It seems risky to depend on guys like Banks and Strawberry (and I wouldn't even discount Tucker) but with the performances we've seen so far from some of his favorites I can't imagine them hurting the team at all. At least, we wouldn't be seeing the team dying from sheer lack of energy. And we would have added a fair amount of defensive grit, which has been sorely needed.

He's already running out of time to do it - we had a schedule that was tailor made for bringing the bench into action and somewhat up to speed but now we're heading into a much stiffer brand of competition. IMO, it still needs to be done and it needs all thats left of the season to get rid of the worst of the rough edges.

I started out the pre-season with this view of what needed to be done and I had a faint hope that D'Antoni would realize the rest of the league had gained ground on the Suns tempo so the only thing to do was raise the bar still higher. And there is the fact that our tempo last year was clearly not enough to run past the Spurs.

I understand your point perfectly. DA's problem is not so much playing his style per se but a consistent approach to it with complementary measures.

His main guys have been hurting from the start. If you keep play them for 35min avg. as the doctrine you go by, the consequence is lack of energy in general. In addition, this wears down the body that makes the full recovery even longer or impossible. The obvious complementary corrective measure is to bring in your bench and use them more. If they could keep the score close with energy, like the Spurs just did to GS, you could still bring back the well rested starters in Amare and Nash for 4th q. execution.

The way DA clings on his doctrine of 35 min minimum for starters and no more than 8 p rotation, he is killing the team for now and potentially for the whole season. But adjustment has been his problem all along!

 

[dodie53]

DA can even use other types of defense if he uses the bench,
like full-court defense.
atleast,
even if Banks and the rookies don't play that many minutes,
they contributed something.

 

[msdundee]

Your logic? Since DA is not to blame for global warming, the Suns are fine and everything is vanilla ice cream?

"Hey fellow Suns fans, what's the fuss all about? DA is not blame for the global warming for God's sake!"

No, the Suns are not fine. There was no logic to that statement, just as there's no logic to blaming D'Antoni for Amare's lack of interest in defense. Amare's improved his offensive game in several areas and that's to his credit. During the off season he did a lot of talking about how much Kurt's mentoring had helped him and about how hard he was working on gearing up his defense. He said he slimmed down so he would be quicker -- he has the muscle to be effective and uses it beautifully on offense but muscle and "quick" are big pluses at both ends of the floor. When a player with Amare's obvious strength gets outrebounded and outblocked and torched by his man time and time again, it would appear to be a lack of effort. Time to walk the walk.

 

[nowagimp]

Not only that, I'm pretty sure he's to blame for global warming.

And also the arab/israeli conflict. Seriously, though amare doesnt have the lower body strength to guard the center position, he has reconstructed knees. If amare plays physical center his career will be over in a few years. All the banging with other bigger stronger players caused the problem in the first place, not jumping. Amare needs to play power forward, not center. He can be a good help defender, but he will never have the strength to deny the typical NBA center his spots on the low block, its not going to happen. Amare is still recovering from the scope, strengthwise, he's not all the way back yet. He also gets rung up for ridiculous fouls that would never be called on most NBA centers. Amare cant even tie up a player without a foul call, he can never get "all ball" in the refs eyes. Oberto can get away with much more physical contact than amare, its a joke. The refs do the equivalent of profiling, "its amare he must have fouled him".

 

[chickenhead]

I missed this thread the first time around but bringing up other "great" coaches was pretty interesting. Bringing up Torre again:

After almost 15 years managing the Mets, Braves, and Cardinals, he had no titles and a sub .500 winning percentage. He inherited a team built by Buck Showalter (like Brenly) and had the nearly unlimited resources to keep it together (unlike Brenly). Now, I would never take anything away from the job Torre did, and generally the calls for his firing in NY were abdsurd. He had enough opportunities to finally make the utmost of them. Reminds me of Belichik and Pete Carroll in that regard.

The point is, that withing context, D'Antoni still looks pretty good. He has a .543 winning percentage, which includes an awful part of a season in Denver. He has the longest win streak in franchise history. He has as many trips to the conference finals as Cotton and McLeod and one more than Westphal. Westphal and McLeod have the only trips to the Finals, though McLeod's came with one less round of playoffs (and he was here for almost 14 years). All in all D'Antoni has done an awful lot in a relatively short time. I don't understand why he would be replaced with anyone short of Phil Jackson, and I don't like Phil Jackson.

 

[nowagimp]

All in all D'Antoni has done an awful lot in a relatively short time. I don't understand why he would be replaced with anyone short of Phil Jackson, and I don't like Phil Jackson.

I would replace him with Pop AND tim duncan. And DA had Nash (back up all star western conference with the mavs) when he came to the suns, while Phil Jackson never had anyone to work with: MJ, scottie, shaq, kobe. And poor pops only had David Robinson and Tim Duncan to build his team around and make a winner. And Pat Riley ONLY had Magic, Kareen worthy, patrick ewing, shaq and D Wade, poor Pat. NBA coaches are probably the least valuable of all major sports, they get more credit for contributing less.

 

[TucsonDevil]

I'm probably the only one on here that is very critical of D'Antoni but doesn't want him to change his style - IMO, the only hope for this team is for Mike make heavy use of his bench and push the tempo to the limit for 48 minutes, every game.

Errntknght, that is like saying I like water, except for the fact that it is wet. D'Antoni's system dictates using a very short bench - That is part of the package. Period.

Therefore, it sounds like you want change as well. Welcome aboard.

 

[Errntknght]

Errntknght, that is like saying I like water, except for the fact that it is wet. D'Antoni's system dictates using a very short bench - That is part of the package. Period.

Therefore, it sounds like you want change as well. Welcome aboard.

A short bench is part of D'Antoni's coaching style but its not at all a necessary part of the playing style he espouses. I suppose I could have made that distinction but it seems quite clear to me.

Actually, I should welcome you because I'm certainly a contender for the title of D'Antoni's first and most comprehensive critic on here. And FJ's and Skiles' before him, as most oldtimers could tell you.

 

[TucsonDevil]

Actually, I should welcome you because I'm certainly a contender for the title of D'Antoni's first and most comprehensive critic on here. And FJ's and Skiles' before him, as most oldtimers could tell you.

Then, thanks. I can't say it is good to be here, since I would rather just cheer on the team without hesitation... but such is life.

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Dantoni's redundant stubbornness this season is so obvious its like giving the playbook (which we dont have as it is) to the league and not changing our gameplan.

Case in point: Hornets game, outrebounded, outdefended, complete lack of micromanging by the coach.

 

[elindholm]

Dantoni's redundant stubbornness this season is so obvious its like giving the playbook (which we dont have as it is) to the league and not changing our gameplan.

That's not too far off the mark. D'Antoni seems to have adopted Skiles's tradition of a Stupid First Play that the team runs on its first offensive set every game. D'Antoni's is when Nash gives the ball to Stoudemire a bit above the free-throw line, then Bell comes around a baseline (?) screen to receive a short pass from Stoudemire and shoot over him, Stoudemire making himself wide to prevent his own man from helping on Bell.

The difference between D'Antoni's SFP and Skiles's is that D'Antoni's sometimes results in a made basket. Still, it can't be a good idea to be so predictable. If I've noticed the increasing frequency of this play to start each game, opposing coaches have probably noticed it too.

 

[scoutmasterdave]

D'Antoni's is when Nash gives the ball to Stoudemire a bit above the free-throw line, then Bell comes around a baseline (?) screen to receive a short pass from Stoudemire and shoot over him, Stoudemire making himself wide to prevent his own man from helping on Bell.

And of course, we can't forget the Diaw/Marion first play pick and roll from two years ago that usually resulted in an alley-oop dunk ... until the league caught on, at which point it never worked again.

 

[Errntknght]

Am I remembering Skiles' SFP correctly - Cliffy popping out high for a 3 pointer?

 

[elindholm]

Am I remembering Skiles' SFP correctly - Cliffy popping out high for a 3 pointer?

It was a Robinson shot, but no, only from two-point range. At the left elbow if I remember correctly.

 

[cly2tw]

Can we agree on the observation that DA is, simly put, way too shortsighted in his approach to the game?

 

[Gaddabout]

Things we can be assured of:

- D'Antoni isn't going to change the system
- If he did, it would be a complete disaster
- He's not going to change his substitution schemes
- He revels in people telling him he can't do something, so if the cries from the fans ever got loud enough, all it would do is make him dig in even more
- We're talking about a man who is as prickly as he is sensitive to criticism

I'm game to let him do what he does and be what he is for the rest of the season. I'll revisit this at the end of the season. If you ever get to the point where you think the coach needs to change how he approaches the game, you just change the coach. That's reality.

 

[msdundee]

I'm game to let him do what he does and be what he is for the rest of the season. I'll revisit this at the end of the season. If you ever get to the point where you think the coach needs to change how he approaches the game, you just change the coach. That's reality.

Who's the "you"?
If Sarver ever gets to the point where he thinks the coach needs to change how he approaches the game, Sarver changes the coach.
That's real reality.

 

[mojorizen7]

Things we can be assured of:

- D'Antoni isn't going to change the system
- If he did, it would be a complete disaster
- He's not going to change his substitution schemes
- He revels in people telling him he can't do something, so if the cries from the fans ever got loud enough, all it would do is make him dig in even more
- We're talking about a man who is as prickly as he is sensitive to criticism

I'm game to let him do what he does and be what he is for the rest of the season. I'll revisit this at the end of the season. If you ever get to the point where you think the coach needs to change how he approaches the game, you just change the coach. That's reality.

Solid post.

 

[Gaddabout]

Who's the "you"?
If Sarver ever gets to the point where he thinks the coach needs to change how he approaches the game, Sarver changes the coach.
That's real reality.

Not sure why this is neccesary on a message board, but allow me to rephrase: If the Suns don't pick it up and win a championship this season, or at least show me something that gives me hope for next season, I'm not going to sit here and whine about D'Antoni needing to change his approach. I'll be joining the bandwagon to bring in another coach.

 

[Covert Rain]

If the Suns don't pick it up and win a championship this season, or at least show me something that gives me hope for next season, I'm not going to sit here and whine about D'Antoni needing to change his approach. I'll be joining the bandwagon to bring in another coach.