Fire Rod Graves Now

[Cheesebeef]

Dansby, from day one, demanded OLB money after seeing what Pace got in NY. Franchising him twice speaks to the fact that they wanted to keep him. Not at his price but their's. The final offer was similar to Miami's and Karlos simply decided to move on.

do the Dansby rationalizers continually/purposefully start the "Karlos wanted top dollar" discussion at Pace simply because they don't remember what happened before that moment or is just willfull avoidance of the fact that his negotiations should have been done BEFORE that even happened? Starting the conversation with the Pace argument is such a ridiculously specious argument that ignores the BLATANT fact that Los should have gotten an extension before any of that happened.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

But Peyton is just a isolated incident that I am using to prove my point. Graves has done, and will continue to screw over this franchise for years to come.

Name him Community Relations Director and promote Kiem and bring in a strong contracts guy to supplement him.

And no I don't want to bring in a contracts guy to supplement Graves. What the hell would he be doing then? Sipping lemonade and sleeping on his desk?

Are we sure this isn't what he is doing anyway?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

But you can blame Graves for his horrible ability with negotiating contracts. The one job he has taken on first hand he is failing at. Not sure how that part of his job can be defended???

Yup.

 

[Cheesebeef]

But you can blame Graves for his horrible ability with negotiating contracts. The one job he has taken on first hand he is failing at. Not sure how that part of his job can be defended???

I'm sure Crazy Canuck's got a couple rationalizations for us.

 

[Jetstream Green]

Yeah but its Graves structuring the RIDICULOUS contracts. Lets say Peyton eventually comes out and says "I was highly considereing Az but the timeline with their current roster didnt give enough time"....This will never happen because Peyton wouldnt say it even if it was true but lets play what if.

The fan base would KILL Kevin Kolb. I mean excoriate him. And how does that make sense?

They should be killing the guy who STRUCTURED the contract. Yeah maybe Peyton was never coming here. But that stupid contract didnt help AT ALL. And less will agree with me on this but not having a Elway type in FO that made PM comfortable I think would have helped as well.

Graves was hired by the Bidwills, and they know very well how the contracts are being structured because it is their money to give and one would expect that is how they want it done.

 

[joeshmo]

Whisenhunt and his coaching staff makes the player decisions. He tells Graves who he wants. Graves then talks to Bidwill Jr. .Bidwill Jr. then talks to his dad who still is the one holding the major bucks to give out. Then Jr. gets back to Graves and every thing has to probably be relayed back to dad. Before, signings took a while because Bidwill Sr. moved slow, now they move slow because it would appear that though Jr. runs the team...he has to verify all money and decisions with his dad. It is a long roll of Cardinal red tape, and Graves must have a very difficult position taking what Whis wants, what Jr. approves of and then getting the old man to provide the money.

This is not true. Senior is completely out of the loop, and yes that includes money decisions paid out to players. If Senior is still involved the Cards would not be in the top 5 teams of total salary paid out over the last 5 years. Jurecki and other team insiders have all said as much. Junior has 100% control.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

And I am not one of those guys screamign abotu Calais not being resigned or Dansby or Rolle.

I am more pissed about the stupid f---- contracts guys actually sign that handcuff the franchise year after year. Fitz and Kolb both come to mind.

What do you want the players to do? Not sign these amazing contracts they are given. Their agents have to be laughing all the way to the bank

 

[Jetstream Green]

This is not true. Senior is completely out of the loop, and yes that includes money decisions paid out to players. If Senior is still involved the Cards would not be in the top 5 teams of total salary paid out over the last 5 years. Jurecki and other team insiders have all said as much. Junior has 100% control.

thanks Joeshmo for the info, living in Texas it is hard to get accurate info when the national media gives more assumptions than facts regarding the Cards. Good to know that Junior has that control.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Not saying he is good. Just saying that if you blame him for Manning or other things beyond his control, you are the idiot. Plenty of other things to latch onto.

Exactly...

 

[82CardsGrad]

Thats what happens when you are the GM. Why is Elway universally deemed responsible for having PM in Denver now?

Graves just isnt good enough. If somehow the Cardinals hire Elway, Manning is in Az no doubt. But it doesnt have to be Elway. It could be Newsome, Schnieder, or Baalke, Pioli or any number of credible smart guys who run their teams.

Its why everyone in the NFL is running from joining Miami. Jeff Ireland. Hes outright terrible. Grave is more understatedly terrible and inspires no confidence.

There you go. One GM worse then Graves for those keeping count. Anyone else.

So, you choose to totally dismiss the fact that Manning was predisposed to remaining in the AFC?? Nice...

 

[jefftheshark]

Rod Graves could be caught giving it to Big Red up the tail-feathers on the lawn bordering Hardy Drive and he wouldn't get fired. So losing out on a guy like PM, who could have chosen Denver for countless reasons outside of anyone's control, certainly wouldn't get the man a second glance at unemployment.

My take is that PM took one look at our long history of offensive line issues and decided to take his fragile neck elsewhere. Throughout this entire ordeal I secretly hoped that he chose someplace else to play for this reason alone. Not that I particularly care for Peyton's neck, but if we paid a guy $90M bucks only to see him wearing a cervical collar by the second pre-season game, well that might be too much for this long-suffering fan to bear.

Rod Graves is, in my opinion, responsible for this situation. Throughout his entire tenure we have wasted pick after pick on offensive tackles who were either guards in disguise or talentless busts. We have an assistant coach in Grimm who continually puts out an inferior product yet nothing ever changes. I sincerely doubt that Mike Bidwill tells Graves to allow this situation to continue, but I wouldn't be surprised if Old Man B didn't have a soft place in his heart for the guy. It's the ol' Peter Principle where Graves has reached his level of incompetence yet has built up too much good will over the years to be fired for his shortcomings.

I guess that threads like this are good in a way. They serve as a method for us to lick our collective wounds and prepare for the next disappointment. But to seriously think that RG will ever be fired would fly in the face of everything we have ever learned as loyal Cardinal fans.

Somethings are just the way that they are, and you either live with it or you become a Patriots fan.

JTS

 

[Mitch]

Considering most contracts are negotiated over the phone, I highly doubt his stature does anything for his negotiating skills. Not sure of his ability to scout current NFL talent as well. But sometimes yo have to take that leap with first time GM's, none of them will have a full set of skills their to start with.

Graves is not your typical GM. He doesn't do much scouting. He delegates, he lets Kiem scout the NCAA, and he lets McCreight scout the NFL. Those guys then work with the coaches to come up with a list of talent they want.

If you don't like the free agent talent we bring in you can blame that on the coaches and McCreight misjudging current NFL talent.

But you can blame Graves for his horrible ability with negotiating contracts. The one job he has taken on first hand he is failing at. Not sure how that part of his job can be defended???

Word.

The Cardinals run the FO like a car dealership. RG is the sales rep who greets you in the lot, shows you around and takes you out for spins...yet, when the negotiations start, he has to leave you sitting there to go run the numbers by the manager...and then the back and forth continues until either the client walks or finally agrees to the deal. Meanwhile the process is tedious and frustrating.

I don't know if this has happened to you, but on a couple of occasions when I wound up asking to speak to the manger myself, the manager revealed that had I met with him earlier, the process would have been expedited on the spot.

The thing about RG is that he really isn't the GM---his role is so amorphous---and it keeps changing the more others like Keim, McCreight and Whisenhunt (and even Fitzgerald!) assume greater influence.

What RG is very good at, beside being a diligent liaison, is handling the media---he's smooth, soft-spoken and classy---and never says anything that would compromise his or the organization's integrity.

RG is doing what he is asked to do. If you want to blame him you can blame him for not demanding more executive power---but the Bidwills are so hands-on and always have been, the possibility of that is virtually nil. Yet, as a result, he often is perceived as the goat---when he really isn't.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

So, you choose to totally dismiss the fact that Manning was predisposed to remaining in the AFC?? Nice...

That is TOTAL speculation. Just because he eventually chose AFC didnt make it so. That was more the media putting what they thought and claiming it as true and accurate information.

 

[Mainstreet]

For the most part, I think RG operates like a person who is given a dollar and told by his bosses to fill his needs at the dollar store. IMO, he sets up contracts that limit his ability to keep top players except for the occasional star like Fitz being the exception.

 

[kerouac9]

Considering most contracts are negotiated over the phone, I highly doubt his stature does anything for his negotiating skills. Not sure of his ability to scout current NFL talent as well. But sometimes yo have to take that leap with first time GM's, none of them will have a full set of skills their to start with.

Graves is not your typical GM. He doesn't do much scouting. He delegates, he lets Kiem scout the NCAA, and he lets McCreight scout the NFL. Those guys then work with the coaches to come up with a list of talent they want.

If you don't like the free agent talent we bring in you can blame that on the coaches and McCreight misjudging current NFL talent.

But you can blame Graves for his horrible ability with negotiating contracts. The one job he has taken on first hand he is failing at. Not sure how that part of his job can be defended???

And that's the biggest issue. The guy was brought in three years ago from one of the worst staffs in the NFL. Awesome job bringing in Derek Anderson and Dave Zastudil, T.J.

The bigger issue for Graves is because he doesn't have an opinion on football personnel, he doesn't really get the market. He did a great job with the market for Levi Brown (although ostensibly Brown had a hand in that, as well), but was straight-up hoodwinked by Stewart Bradley's people (there were superior ILBs sitting out in free agency late last year, and better players sitting out there again right now), as well as giving away silly money to Chansi Stuckey and Todd Heap.

It would've been better to bring nobody in for those roster spots than what we ended up doing. Graves seemed to misunderstand the WR market this offseason as well, although I don't blame him because people are giving away stupid money for guys like Laurent Robinson.

 

[Buckybird]

As much as I don't like the human snail, IMO as long as the Bidwills own the franchise the GM will be nothing more than a puppet. I like Michael, he's changed some things, but it's still run like the family business that it is!!! The Cards will never be "all in to win" with it's ownership.

Did anyone here Bowlin at the PM press conference say, "Our goal is the win championships"? Does anyone really believe the Bidwill's are "all in" to accomplish that every year? That my friends is our problem. Thats the Cardinal way.

 

[Phrazbit]

Kolb was an extension of his deal with Philly locking hin in for 6 years at a max of $10M per year. Good price for a starting QB. But, just in case it didn't work out the team negotiated an easy out after two years, which would cost $21M in total. The whole FO and HC bought into this commitment.

10 million a year is what an established QB gets who has proven something, not what a guy in Flynn and Kolb's case should get. That contract is horrific. They paid him as though he had already played out his one year extension and proven himself. And how 21 million over 2 years and a 6 mil cap hit in the 3rd when he isnt on the roster constitutes an "easy out" is beyond me.

Dansby, from day one, demanded OLB money after seeing what Pace got in NY. Franchising him twice speaks to the fact that they wanted to keep him. Not at his price but their's. The final offer was similar to Miami's and Karlos simply decided to move on.

Yeah, it was similar to Miami's, as in Graves merely hoped to have a chance to match. Way to be proactive.

Boldin wanted number one $$$ and Warner wanted to be the highest paid QB. That the Cards did not fall over themselves to meet these demands is hardly surprising. Warner came back for good coin and the Boldin trade was instrumental in getting Rhodes, and more important, DWash.

Oh come on... Warner had to go trampsing around in order to get a decent offer from the Cardinals. His own loyalty is they only thing that kept him from walking. If Warner were not such a nice guy and come back for less than what the Niners offered (but double the Cards original offer) the Cards would have lost their starting QB from their best season in 60 years.

 

[Shane]

at whole thread

 

[JeffGollin]

at whole thread

Like he said.

 

[kerouac9]

I think my position on Rod Graves is pretty clear, but people like AZF and TJ calling out Graves for Kolb's contract is complete and utterly embarrassing hypocracy.

Those that determined that acquiring Kevin Kolb for whatever it takes last offseason have no right to complain that the contract was done poorly. If you were convinced that Kevin Kolb was a budding Franchise Quarterback, then this is the freight that you pay a franchise quarterback. Just because you were mistaken in your evaluations doesn't give you the "right" to pile on Graves for the deal it took to extend Kolb.

I had no problem with Kolb's contract at the time it was signed, and still don't. That's what you pay a free agent quarterback. I thought that the Cards gave up too much for Kolb at the time, and I doubted that Kolb had what it takes to be a Top 12 quarterback at any time now or in the future. But guys like AZF and TJ were convinced that because Kolb had two great games and two okay games against awful defenses he'd be the second coming of... let's say Aaron Rodgers.

When Kolb signed his contract people now condemning Graves were crowing that it would look like a bargain as Kolb and Fitz would be starting in the Pro Bowl on the off chance that they wouldn't be starting in the Super Bowl a week later. Sorry guys, you can't heap the manure that you spread eight months ago on Rod Graves' head.

 

[Shane]

I think my position on Rod Graves is pretty clear, but people like AZF and TJ calling out Graves for Kolb's contract is complete and utterly embarrassing hypocracy.

Those that determined that acquiring Kevin Kolb for whatever it takes last offseason have no right to complain that the contract was done poorly. If you were convinced that Kevin Kolb was a budding Franchise Quarterback, then this is the freight that you pay a franchise quarterback. Just because you were mistaken in your evaluations doesn't give you the "right" to pile on Graves for the deal it took to extend Kolb.

I had no problem with Kolb's contract at the time it was signed, and still don't. That's what you pay a free agent quarterback. I thought that the Cards gave up too much for Kolb at the time, and I doubted that Kolb had what it takes to be a Top 12 quarterback at any time now or in the future. But guys like AZF and TJ were convinced that because Kolb had two great games and two okay games against awful defenses he'd be the second coming of... let's say Aaron Rodgers.

When Kolb signed his contract people now condemning Graves were crowing that it would look like a bargain as Kolb and Fitz would be starting in the Pro Bowl on the off chance that they wouldn't be starting in the Super Bowl a week later. Sorry guys, you can't heap the manure that you spread eight months ago on Rod Graves' head.

Hallefreakinglujia!

Was gonna post something similar. Thanks for saving me the time.

 

[82CardsGrad]

That is TOTAL speculation. Just because he eventually chose AFC didnt make it so. That was more the media putting what they thought and claiming it as true and accurate information.

Really?? You didn't hear his press conference this morning did you...

 

[RedRob]

So true

Peyton chose the AFC. Graves couldn't do anything about that.

Exactly.

An argument can be made that Peyton checked us out even though he desperately wanted to play in the AFC.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Really?? You didn't hear his press conference this morning did you...

I did and watched a one-on-one with Rich Eisen and he made it clear that Conference; playing against his brother or against Indy was not a prime motivator. Comfort in his immediate surroundings was; and the role of John Elway was a critical componemt.

 

[TJ]

Since when did AZ Finest and I say Kolb was the next Aaron Rodgers?

On cue, K9 making garbage up to support a weak argument. Get over yourself.