Fire Rod Graves Now

[Arizona's Finest]

I think my position on Rod Graves is pretty clear, but people like AZF and TJ calling out Graves for Kolb's contract is complete and utterly embarrassing hypocracy.

Those that determined that acquiring Kevin Kolb for whatever it takes last offseason have no right to complain that the contract was done poorly. If you were convinced that Kevin Kolb was a budding Franchise Quarterback, then this is the freight that you pay a franchise quarterback. Just because you were mistaken in your evaluations doesn't give you the "right" to pile on Graves for the deal it took to extend Kolb.

I had no problem with Kolb's contract at the time it was signed, and still don't. That's what you pay a free agent quarterback. I thought that the Cards gave up too much for Kolb at the time, and I doubted that Kolb had what it takes to be a Top 12 quarterback at any time now or in the future. But guys like AZF and TJ were convinced that because Kolb had two great games and two okay games against awful defenses he'd be the second coming of... let's say Aaron Rodgers.

When Kolb signed his contract people now condemning Graves were crowing that it would look like a bargain as Kolb and Fitz would be starting in the Pro Bowl on the off chance that they wouldn't be starting in the Super Bowl a week later. Sorry guys, you can't heap the manure that you spread eight months ago on Rod Graves' head.

Leave it to K9 to completely take a thread and topic out out of context to take jabs at certain posters. How no one calls him out on this BS is beyond me. At what point were we discussing the viability of how good Kolb is? Franchise Player, Mid Level Player, Fringe PLayer - whatever. THE STRUCTURE of the contract is stupid and flawwed. I am okay with the total money - the way it was spread out is SO favorable to the player its stupid.

Admittedly I didnt understand that he got that much cash upfront AND again priort to his second year. Did they not consider that you may not have the whole answer after a lockout shortened offseason with Kolb? If not that was just piss poor planning. The fact that we have given him 19 million after 7 games of barely adequate play is embarassing.

And for the 100th time I never said he was Aaron Rodgers or a surefire franchise QB. He was the best available last offseason and I liked his upside. Much like Matt Flynn. How Seattle gets their deal and we spend 30 million more is beyond me.

And I STILL think Kolb is going to be a good player for the Cardinals provided he stays healthy - which is my biggest issue with him and something I am not sure of at this point but didnt realize would be such an issue going in. Hes fragile.

But even if I think he is the next Joe Montana - That doesnt mean you need to pay him 19 million in 8 months. Thats pure stupidity. You know why that happens? Because your agent is THAT much better then the guy he was going against.

You get how those are mutually exclusive right? I can think Kolb was a good get but be upset about the structure of his contract. That is the ENTIRE theme of this thread after all. I dont like Fitz contract either - doesnt mean I am trying to get rid of him. I think there were mistakes in negotiating it.

Make sense MMMMMMK-9?

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Really?? You didn't hear his press conference this morning did you...

No i didnt. Did he say the AFC was a big factor for him? Honest question.

 

[kerouac9]

Since when did AZ Finest and I say Kolb was the next Aaron Rodgers?

On cue, K9 making garbage up to support a weak argument. Get over yourself.

AZF compared Kolb to Rodgers ad nauseum last year. As for calling Kolb a Franchise Quarterback?

Kevin Kolb alone is going to produce more wins than any OLB we could have gotten on the free market. Also, our SILB situation was finally addressed with Stewart Bradley.

Good work there.

You think Kolb is Kyle Orton reincarated. I don't. I think he COULD be as good as a Aaron Rodgers (admittedly unlikely) but I could defintely see him being Matt Schaub and like I mentioned earlier, I think we can win and win big with that type of players. Like we have debated before - its not just the 0player individually - Its the player + the environemnt, and like Wiz said last week, I think we have a pretty QB friendly environment.

Another excellent evaluation.

I've seen both play live and I'll tell you, Kolb looks the part of a franchise QB and I only think he is going to get better. Orton is good, but he's not someone Id tag as my franchise guy for years to come. Why would the Broncos reach in the 2010 draft to grab a QB in the first round who many thought was 3rd round talent if Orton was so special?

Based on what I've seen from the two, I can tell you with 100% certainty Orton and Kolb are not clones. I've said this time and time again, people are more terrified of the compensation int'll take to get Kolb than what he brings to the table. Is it a gamble to bring him in? Certainly. But many would have said the same thing about Aaron Rodgers, who also sat behind a future HoFer for many years and is now a Top 5 QB if not better.

I will continue to scream "potential" until I'm blue in the face because I've seen what he is capable of and it makes me believe he has a good chance of solidifying the position for many years to come; something that has not been done for this franchise for a very long time.

Maybe you're just unsure of what the word "compare" means.

You were the two cheerleaders of the Kolb bandwagon last offseason. Now you have buyer's remorse. I told you so.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

AZF compared Kolb to Rodgers ad nauseum last year. As for calling Kolb a Franchise Quarterback?



Good work there.



Another excellent evaluation.



Maybe you're just unsure of what the word "compare" means.

You were the two cheerleaders of the Kolb bandwagon last offseason. Now you have buyer's remorse. I told you so.

So I said He is going to be like Matt Schaub. Still feel like I am on track with that. Whats your point again?

Or do I have to explain what "unlikely" or "COULD" means to you.

Pretty exciting thats the best you could come up with. Hopeully that puts a halt to all further Aaron Rodgers comments.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

You were the two cheerleaders of the Kolb bandwagon last offseason. Now you have buyer's remorse. I told you so.

Ad nauseum. Not sure you know what that means either. Go ahead and pull up my Sando thread.

Again you are not getting it. I am not saying we should not have acquired Kolb and furthermore I am okay with giving up DRC and a 2nd rounder. DRC was not going to be the guy here anymore and would have left via FA shortly - giving you one more thing to bitch about making that an easy win for me - and the 2nd rounder isnt that big of a deal.

What I am not okay with is GIVING UP 19 MILLION IN 8 MONTHS.

Thats the structure of the contract. Thats Rod Graves. Not the evaluation, or what we gave up, or the total money. THE STRUCTURE. Get it?

 

[kerouac9]

Leave it to K9 to completely take a thread and topic out out of context to take jabs at certain posters. How no one calls him out on this BS is beyond me. At what point were we discussing the viability of how good Kolb is? Franchise Player, Mid Level Player, Fringe PLayer - whatever. THE STRUCTURE of the contract is stupid and flawwed. I am okay with the total money - the way it was spread out is SO favorable to the player its stupid.

Admittedly I didnt understand that he got that much cash upfront AND again priort to his second year. Did they not consider that you may not have the whole answer after a lockout shortened offseason with Kolb? If not that was just piss poor planning. The fact that we have given him 19 million after 7 games of barely adequate play is embarassing.

And for the 100th time I never said he was Aaron Rodgers or a surefire franchise QB. He was the best available last offseason and I liked his upside. Much like Matt Flynn. How Seattle gets their deal and we spend 30 million more is beyond me.

And I STILL think Kolb is going to be a good player for the Cardinals provided he stays healthy - which is my biggest issue with him and something I am not sure of at this point but didnt realize would be such an issue going in. Hes fragile.

But even if I think he is the next Joe Montana - That doesnt mean you need to pay him 19 million in 8 months. Thats pure stupidity. You know why that happens? Because your agent is THAT much better then the guy he was going against.

You get how those are mutually exclusive right? I can think Kolb was a good get but be upset about the structure of his contract. That is the ENTIRE theme of this thread after all. I dont like Fitz contract either - doesnt mean I am trying to get rid of him. I think there were mistakes in negotiating it.

Make sense MMMMMMK-9?

It's not, though. It's standard operating procedure for NFL contracts. The "guaranteed" portion of the contract is usually what comes in the first two seasons; anything beyond that is generally speculative.

Take Aaron Rodgers's contract extension. The biggest cap hit is in... wait for it... the second year ($16 million +). Matt Cassel's contract extension with Kansas City had the largest cap hits in the first three years.

Kolb's contract is backloaded. $10 million signing bonus, $7 million roster bonus, $3 million salary for the first two years (That's $20 million). Last three years is $39 million, but $37 million of that is salary.

Again, you can't be bitter because the Cards got the guy you wanted eight months ago, but you couldn't get the guy you really wanted the next year. My whole argument about Kolb was that you close your opportunities to get better at the position in 2012, 2013 because you shell out for the best available guy, even if he's not that good.

 

[TJ]

Ad nauseum. Not sure you know what that means either. Go ahead and pull up my Sando thread.

Again you are not getting it. I am not saying we should not have acquired Kolb and furthermore I am okay with giving up DRC and a 2nd rounder. DRC was not going to be the guy here anymore and would have left via FA shortly - giving you one more thing to bitch about making that an easy win for me - and the 2nd rounder isnt that big of a deal.

What I am not okay with is GIVING UP 19 MILLION IN 8 MONTHS.

Thats the structure of the contract. Thats Rod Graves. Not the evaluation, or what we gave up, or the total money. THE STRUCTURE. Get it?

He doesn't get it nor will he ever. K9 will continue to hate every player/coach acquisition we make and gush over them when they are former Cardinals and how we should have held on to them.

Hypocrisy...at its finest.

 

[kerouac9]

He doesn't get it nor will he ever. K9 will continue to hate every player/coach acquisition we make and gush over them when they are former Cardinals and how we should have held on to them.

Hypocrisy...at its finest.

Do you even know what "hypocrisy" means?

Say that last year was a standard offseason, would giving up $19 million for Kevin Kolb in 12 months be that much better? That's what it took to get your boy signed.

 

[Duckjake]

JMO but if Kiem is the stud GM of the future wouldn't it make sense that he has some input in personel moves in FA and not just the draft and with that line of thinking some of the decisions that people are blaming Graves for could also very well be Kiem's decisions on talent?

I don't' know. Keim has only been DOPP for two seasons. Years when we've had exceptional drafts and last year picked up some decent free agents. Most of the real problems were in prior years. And of course right now Graves is higher on the pyramid than Keim.

The thing that worries me most is that two of our division rivals have looked at Big Steve as a potential GM.

 

[pinetopred]

I don't' know. Keim has only been DOPP for two seasons. Years when we've had exceptional drafts and last year picked up some decent free agents. Most of the real problems were in prior years. And of course right now Graves is higher on the pyramid than Keim.

The thing that worries me most is that two of our division rivals have looked at Big Steve as a potential GM.

I'm not saying the past couple of years have been bad at all, but the debate on this thread was based on the past couple of years, and that is why I went in the direction I went. Maybe I was just making a point for the sake of argument but it was also my intention to point out that there are FO workings that we dont get because to my knowledge none of us work in the FO for the Cards, and there is alot of blame being thrown around without much substance but this is JMO.

 

[kerouac9]

Well, AZF and TJ can lob all the ad hominems they want, but it doesn't change the cold, hard facts of the Arizona Cardinals getting the guy they agitated for last year:

Signing Kevin Kolb in 2011 precluded the Arizona Cardinals from adding anything else at the position until at the minimum 2013. It has nothing to do with the perfectly regular structure of Kolb's contract or Graves's execution of the contract following the trade.

If you still believe that Kevin Kolb is the guy (as apparently both of them still do, along with others), then what's the difference between Kolb getting $19 million in just signing bonus or $10 million bonus + a $7 million roster bonus last Friday?

There isn't one.

 

[Catfish]

the thing that scares me most about Mike Bidwill is exactly you're point. He's got a strong POV and wouldn't let anyone else be a GM with a strong POV... which is ridiculous considering that Mikey isn't an accomplished football mind, which is what every good team needs at the GM position.

You're so very right on this. The fact that Mike Bidwill does NOT possess a strong football mind, screams out for us to have a GM WITH a strong football mind. Graves not only lacks the football mind, but he gets taken by sharper agents in contract negotiations. He is simply too slow to be effective as a GM. He seems to lack foresight in structuring contracts, and this hurts us frequently by ending up contracts with little way to renew them reasonably.

 

[LarryStalling]

You're so very right on this. The fact that Mike Bidwill does NOT possess a strong football mind, screams out for us to have a GM WITH a strong football mind. Graves not only lacks the football mind, but he gets taken by sharper agents in contract negotiations. He is simply too slow to be effective as a GM. He seems to lack foresight in structuring contracts, and this hurts us frequently by ending up contracts with little way to renew them reasonably.

This is a represents a very possible truth except for the fact that Graves has in-depth experience of judging football talent from his decade long experience with the Bears. He was everything from a regional scout upto and including Director of Scouting for the Bears. His father was also into player personnel with the Eagles.

The one thing that Graves does represent for the Cards is the fact that he is considered by some to be one of the most powerful minority people in sports and one of the first black GM's in football. The first being Ozzie Newsome. I don't mean for this to sound racist, but the team can use this when dealing with the Rooney rule about hiring minority candidates.

So for those that don't think that Graves cannot evaluate talent think again. Just not very well perhaps.

I would guess that his main purpose is the fact that he listens to the owners very well and carries out their expressed wishes very well.

 

[Cheesebeef]

This is a represents a very possible truth except for the fact that Graves has in-depth experience of judging football talent from his decade long experience with the Bears. He was everything from a regional scout upto and including Director of Scouting for the Bears. His father was also into player personnel with the Eagles.

The one thing that Graves does represent for the Cards is the fact that he is considered by some to be one of the most powerful minority people in sports and one of the first black GM's in football. The first being Ozzie Newsome. I don't mean for this to sound racist, but the team can use this when dealing with the Rooney rule about hiring minority candidates.

So for those that don't think that Graves cannot evaluate talent think again. Just not very well perhaps.

lol... he can judge talent... just not very well. Uh, doesn't that imply that he doesn't judge talent very well? And the idea that he has in-depth knowledge because of his time with the Bears gives him any kind of credit is undercut by the fact that his personnel decisions were HORRENDOUS with the Bears. Just because someone has experience, doesn't equate to ability. He was blown out of the Bears staff because they continually made awful decisions and the second he left, they started making moves to make them much more successful.

 

[Cardiac]

I have watched (IMHO) Azfinest lose his mind a couple of times on this board and they always were about QB's. Now you can say that PM is just an example of why RG should be fired but how telling is it that you chose that example.

I would be more than okay with the Cards upgrading the GM position but it's just crazy to me how many fans make him the main reason for any Cardinal woes.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I have watched (IMHO) Azfinest lose his mind a couple of times on this board and they always were about QB's. Now you can say that PM is just an example of why RG should be fired but how telling is it that you chose that example.

I would be more than okay with the Cards upgrading the GM position but it's just crazy to me how many fans make him the main reason for any Cardinal woes.

yeah... i don't think Graves is the biggest reason we have problems with a lot of different areas... I think the fact that Mikey won't hire a legit GM is why we have those problems. Graves is just the sacrificial lamb.

 

[Darkside]

This is a represents a very possible truth except for the fact that Graves has in-depth experience of judging football talent from his decade long experience with the Bears. He was everything from a regional scout upto and including Director of Scouting for the Bears. His father was also into player personnel with the Eagles.

The one thing that Graves does represent for the Cards is the fact that he is considered by some to be one of the most powerful minority people in sports and one of the first black GM's in football. The first being Ozzie Newsome. I don't mean for this to sound racist, but the team can use this when dealing with the Rooney rule about hiring minority candidates.

So for those that don't think that Graves cannot evaluate talent think again. Just not very well perhaps.

I would guess that his main purpose is the fact that he listens to the owners very well and carries out their expressed wishes very well.

Like this post. One thing I never get is how an average fan can even possibly comprehend what a GM does on a daily basis. I don't know what ya'll do, but I'm basically just an office worker. A peon. A peasant. A drone. I'm not the captain of industry or some tycoon or some freaking genius. I really can't realistically comprehend what his day is like. And I don't think most of you can either. Trying to is a joke. Thinking I know better is a joke. I speculate all kinds of crap, none of which is probably true.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Like this post. One thing I never get is how an average fan can even possibly comprehend what a GM does on a daily basis. I don't know what ya'll do, but I'm basically just an office worker. A peon. A peasant. A drone. I'm not the captain of industry or some tycoon or some freaking genius. I really can't realistically comprehend what his day is like. And I don't think most of you can either. Trying to is a joke. Thinking I know better is a joke. I speculate all kinds of crap, none of which is probably true.

to be honest, I don't think I can do better than Graves, but I DO think there are probably people a HELL OF A LOT MORE qualified out there that can.

 

[Darkside]

to be honest, I don't think I can do better than Graves, but I DO think there are probably people a HELL OF A LOT MORE qualified out there that can.

That's my thing with LarryStalling's post, because he had knowledge I didn't have. You'd have to take the knowledge and qualifications of every other GM in the league and compare it to Rod Graves to have a true impression of whether he's worthy of holding that title, and I know neither I nor most people have done that. I don't even think most people know what the qualifications are or what it takes to get those qualifications, let alone know what it takes to operate as a GM in a football organization.

 

[Red Dawn]

Rod's working on the best way to fix our OL now.....what's better for a porous OL than a running QB. Teeeeeboooooooowwwwwwwww!

 

[Cheesebeef]

That's my thing with LarryStalling's post, because he had knowledge I didn't have. You'd have to take the knowledge and qualifications of every other GM in the league and compare it to Rod Graves to have a true impression of whether he's worthy of holding that title, and I know neither I nor most people have done that. I don't even think most people know what the qualifications are or what it takes to get those qualifications, let alone know what it takes to operate as a GM in a football organization.

yeah... I can't agree with this because Graves' DISASTEROUS stint with the Bears has been talked about on this board for years. He's not worthy of that title in most of eyes not only because of his work here, but ESPECIALLY because of how atrocious he was back in his days with the Bears. The guy traded a high first round pick for Rick Mirer... and selected a freaking punter with the 56th pick in the draft. And I'm not talking for the draft rights to Rick Mirer... I'm talking once he was already in the league and already looked like nothing special.

 

[Longcolts]

yeah... I can't agree with this because Graves' DISASTEROUS stint with the Bears has been talked about on this board for years. He's not worthy of that title in most of eyes not only because of his work here, but ESPECIALLY because of how atrocious he was back in his days with the Bears. The guy traded TWO first round picks for Rick Mirer. And I'm not talking for the draft rights to Rick Mirer... I'm talking once he was already in the league and already looked like nothing special.

Graves was never the GM for the Bears. His highest title there was DOPP.

 

[Shane]

yeah... I can't agree with this because Graves' DISASTEROUS stint with the Bears has been talked about on this board for years. He's not worthy of that title in most of eyes not only because of his work here, but ESPECIALLY because of how atrocious he was back in his days with the Bears. The guy traded TWO first round picks for Rick Mirer. And I'm not talking for the draft rights to Rick Mirer... I'm talking once he was already in the league and already looked like nothing special.

Yea I'm not sure that's entirely accurate iirc his highest title with bears was director of player personel...while it sounds flashy and like has a lot of clout I wouldn't put that trade on his shoulders. That would go squarely on the HC and GM as well as owner who would almost certainly have to give the nod on giving up 2 1st rounders.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Graves was never the GM for the Bears. His highest title there was DOPP.

his highest title here is DOPE .

 

[crisper57]

his highest title here is DOPE .

It's actually "Straw Man". When things go good, Michael gets the credit. When things go bad, our wrath turns to Graves. Hell, no wonder the Bidwills see value in the guy.