Fire Rod Graves Now

[Cbus cardsfan]

I'll never blame Graves for getting Kolb. It may or may not work out but at least he took the chance and made the deal. I wish he had that attidtude in free agency once in awhile.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

If you come back to try and somehow mitigate your ignorance here, AZF, and say that the Packers knew that Aaron Rodgers was going to be a star BEFORE those seven starts in 2008, I'd ask you to look to the Green Bay Packers 2008 draft. That's the one where they took Brian Brohm in the 2nd round and Matt Flynn in the 7th round.

It's probably because the Packers were so sure that Aaron Rodgers was going to be a Franchise Quarterback after four offseasons of practices that they invested two draft picks in the same position just as they were anointing Rodgers the starter.

You are right K9. I love Rod Graves and am super happy with contract he gave Kevin Kolb. I am not sure what I was thinking in the first place.

I am very sorry I mistakently gave Matt Cassell credit for a division title in that 10-5 season. That completely changes the point of everything I was saying. Not being a playoff QB makes him very similar to KOlb in terms of starts and how much success they had.

I also dont full understand this thing you call "inflation" and maybe we can set up a learning session on Economics led by yourself where you can bring me up to speed on these exotic finanical concepts.

Apparently the Kevin Kob deal was SMART and the Cardinals were just doing what every other team would. In fact now that I think about it Rod Graves really is a genius and like you have pointed out - just a victim of circumstance, micro economics, personnel evaluation, and the weight of peer pressure on what players like Kolb should be signed for.

Or maybe I am just tired of reading your babble.

You choose.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

What a great job you've both done in changing the subject for how embarrassingly quickly you turned on Kevin Kolb from being the next Franchise Quarterback in the NFL to a guy that you'd like to fire Rod Graves for trading for after you agitated for the trade for six months last year.

When you're wrong, best change the subject.

Kind of like how you neglect to discuss the wildly accurate post that TJ and I are citing above? Better to just ignore it then address it after be called the mat time and time and time again.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I'll never blame Graves for getting Kolb. It may or may not work out but at least he took the chance and made the deal. I wish he had that attidtude in free agency once in awhile.

This I totally agree with.

What I dont agree with is that his deal was market value. Good GMs sign deals like the one Flynn or Alex Smith got - yes the difference between FA and a trade play a part with Flynn, and the availability of Peyton Manning effected them both.

But the Hawks and 49ers played it smart and didnt over pursue and then have to cough up wild cash. Inflation goes up with time though, right?

Again I LOVE the Cardinals taking the swing on Kolb and feel it still may pan out. I don't like how the Cardinals adjusted to a buyers market last year and strapped themselves to Kolb with no recourse if he played poorly - which if that happens with the 49ers or Seahawks....they have a rip cord in place.

Its called mitigating risk and smart business. I cant believe anyone is arguing this really.

 

[Duckjake]

C'mon Dj. Is it so hard to admit that you like to debate and will actually take the opposite side to get an argument going? I can think of numerous times you have done that to me.

And why so agitated. It was an off-handed compliment. There aren't many people able to pull something like that off.

I never take the opposite side just to argue. You and I just disagree on how the Cards run things most of the time.

 

[kerouac9]

Kind of like how you neglect to discuss the wildly accurate post that TJ and I are citing above? Better to just ignore it then address it after be called the mat time and time and time again.

That post has nothing to do with the thread that you started, demanding the dismissal of the general manager who brought in the quarterback you ardently advocated for because you soured on the cost eight months later.

But I'll respond to Duck and, by extension, you and TJ.

There are two reasons why I might seem to take both sides of an issue. One has to do with my intellectual background, and the other has to do with football reasons.

I developed a lot of my intellectual framework from my years as a Lincoln-Douglas debater, where you'd develop arguments for both sides of an issue and defend one or the other, often alternating, based on a coin flip or which position you had last time. Duck's right (and 40 mentions this as well) that it is fun to look at this discussions from both sides (if there is one) when they both have some legitimacy. Unfortunately, yours and TJ's point here on firing Graves because of Kolb's contract structure has no legitimacy.

The second reason is football related. A lot of people here look at these issues as binary: Kolb's contract is good or bad; Early Doucet is a #2 or he's not. I don't really see it that way. IMO, a player is evaluated on a spectrum IN COMPARISON to the other players around him. So I'll argue that Paris Lenon is the 9th-best starter on our defense, but I'll also argue that he's a legitimate NFL player, even if he's a fringe NFL starter. Those aren't incompatible points of view. Levi Brown is both a disappointing draft pick and a deeply frustrating player to watch, but he was also the best option available for starting tackle for the Arizona Cardinals in free agency. Those aren't incompatible points of view, either.

It's amazing to me that you and TJ can take a holier-than-thou approach when you're cornered intellectually and say, "Well, at least I don't hate the team!" or whatever nonsesense you guys come up with. I keep my arguments football-related, and I'm sorry when I have a memory of guys you loved before it was illustrated that they're not very good. You'll accuse me of preferring being right to having a player turn out well; that's clearly not the case as illustrated by my conversion on Daryl Washington. On the other hand, I'm still waiting for you to show up on the "On the Record for Kevin Kolb" thread and admit that his 1st season here was very poor. Have you even admitted that you were deeply wrong about loving Max Hall and thinking that he was an NFL player, much less an NFL starter?

If anything, I'm as fallible as everyone else here when it comes to evaluating the Cards' roster. I still think that LeVar Fisher would've been good here were it not for his knees. I defended Wendell Bryant's last season here because he suffered a high ankle sprain in the first two weeks of the season. I couldn't understand why the Cards didn't tender Kenny Iwebema, and I'm the biggest fan of Jim Dray there is.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

That post has nothing to do with the thread that you started, demanding the dismissal of the general manager who brought in the quarterback you ardently advocated for because you soured on the cost eight months later.

But I'll respond to Duck and, by extension, you and TJ.

There are two reasons why I might seem to take both sides of an issue. One has to do with my intellectual background, and the other has to do with football reasons.

I developed a lot of my intellectual framework from my years as a Lincoln-Douglas debater, where you'd develop arguments for both sides of an issue and defend one or the other, often alternating, based on a coin flip or which position you had last time. Duck's right (and 40 mentions this as well) that it is fun to look at this discussions from both sides (if there is one) when they both have some legitimacy. Unfortunately, yours and TJ's point here on firing Graves because of Kolb's contract structure has no legitimacy.

The second reason is football related. A lot of people here look at these issues as binary: Kolb's contract is good or bad; Early Doucet is a #2 or he's not. I don't really see it that way. IMO, a player is evaluated on a spectrum IN COMPARISON to the other players around him. So I'll argue that Paris Lenon is the 9th-best starter on our defense, but I'll also argue that he's a legitimate NFL player, even if he's a fringe NFL starter. Those aren't incompatible points of view. Levi Brown is both a disappointing draft pick and a deeply frustrating player to watch, but he was also the best option available for starting tackle for the Arizona Cardinals in free agency. Those aren't incompatible points of view, either.

It's amazing to me that you and TJ can take a holier-than-thou approach when you're cornered intellectually and say, "Well, at least I don't hate the team!" or whatever nonsesense you guys come up with. I keep my arguments football-related, and I'm sorry when I have a memory of guys you loved before it was illustrated that they're not very good. You'll accuse me of preferring being right to having a player turn out well; that's clearly not the case as illustrated by my conversion on Daryl Washington. On the other hand, I'm still waiting for you to show up on the "On the Record for Kevin Kolb" thread and admit that his 1st season here was very poor. Have you even admitted that you were deeply wrong about loving Max Hall and thinking that he was an NFL player, much less an NFL starter?

If anything, I'm as fallible as everyone else here when it comes to evaluating the Cards' roster. I still think that LeVar Fisher would've been good here were it not for his knees. I defended Wendell Bryant's last season here because he suffered a high ankle sprain in the first two weeks of the season. I couldn't understand why the Cards didn't tender Kenny Iwebema, and I'm the biggest fan of Jim Dray there is.

Nicely put, and I now know why you seemingly argue with yourself at times.

 

[TJ]

Originally Posted by kerouac9
That post has nothing to do with the thread that you started, demanding the dismissal of the general manager who brought in the quarterback you ardently advocated for because you soured on the cost eight months later.

But I'll respond to Duck and, by extension, you and TJ.

There are two reasons why I might seem to take both sides of an issue. One has to do with my intellectual background, and the other has to do with football reasons.

I developed a lot of my intellectual framework from my years as a Lincoln-Douglas debater, where you'd develop arguments for both sides of an issue and defend one or the other, often alternating, based on a coin flip or which position you had last time. Duck's right (and 40 mentions this as well) that it is fun to look at this discussions from both sides (if there is one) when they both have some legitimacy. Unfortunately, yours and TJ's point here on firing Graves because of Kolb's contract structure has no legitimacy.

Talk about delusions of grandeur. "Intellectual framework?" Apparently, your time as a Lincoln-Douglas debater has hindered your reading comprehension. Highlighting that AZF and I want Graves fired only because of Kolb's contract structure is comical. Either you are disregarding everything else I say to maintain your ridiculous assertion, or you simply don't understand what is being indicated to you. I made one post here that highlighted more than one reason why I think Graves is not doing a particularly good job, and it contains more information than Kevin Kolb or his contract.

The second reason is football related. A lot of people here look at these issues as binary: Kolb's contract is good or bad; Early Doucet is a #2 or he's not. I don't really see it that way. IMO, a player is evaluated on a spectrum IN COMPARISON to the other players around him. So I'll argue that Paris Lenon is the 9th-best starter on our defense, but I'll also argue that he's a legitimate NFL player, even if he's a fringe NFL starter. Those aren't incompatible points of view. Levi Brown is both a disappointing draft pick and a deeply frustrating player to watch, but he was also the best option available for starting tackle for the Arizona Cardinals in free agency. Those aren't incompatible points of view, either.

It's because you make them binary. You consistently rag on people when you think they are "wrong" or "misinformed," when really, the information you have is either distorted by you or you have a difficult time understanding what is being discussed.

It's amazing to me that you and TJ can take a holier-than-thou approach when you're cornered intellectually and say, "Well, at least I don't hate the team!" or whatever nonsesense you guys come up with. I keep my arguments football-related, and I'm sorry when I have a memory of guys you loved before it was illustrated that they're not very good. You'll accuse me of preferring being right to having a player turn out well; that's clearly not the case as illustrated by my conversion on Daryl Washington. On the other hand, I'm still waiting for you to show up on the "On the Record for Kevin Kolb" thread and admit that his 1st season here was very poor. Have you even admitted that you were deeply wrong about loving Max Hall and thinking that he was an NFL player, much less an NFL starter?

"Cornered intellectually?" LOL. "Arguments 'football-related'?" I beg to differ. You have a reputation of using ad hoc attacks to denigrate other posters in an attempt to validate your stance. While some of your arguments do stay on topic, you frequently sway off the path and ensure the person with whom you're "debating" is broken down. That being said, it is absurd when you accuse others of swaying off topic and using personal attacks to validate a point, whether your claims are true or otherwise.

As someone who was a Lincoln-Douglas debater, you should understand the morals of effective debate. One of which is respect for the person with whom you're debating. Something you do not demonstrate time and time again when trying to make a point. I put you on "ignore" because your act was getting tiresome and IMO, was mitigating the level of discourse. BTW, you're still on ignore, but was getting sick of you throwing AZF and I under the bus because you were manufacturing information about our point. You wonder why people here have to be as direct as they are with you.

Regarding your Kolb thread. I have stated on many occasions how substandard I think his season was. I feel disinclined more than ever to post there explaining for the 100th time how I feel about Kolb's season and what I anticipate for the future. However, you have proven that you have completely disregarded everything AZF and I have stated about Kolb with the exception of our support for him as a player and most importantly, a Cardinal.

If anything, I'm as fallible as everyone else .

At the very least

 

[jefftheshark]

I developed a lot of my intellectual framework from my years as a Lincoln-Douglas debater.

Nicely put, and I now know why you seemingly argue with yourself at times.

Years of training as a master-debater have obviously honed his skills.



JTS

 

[40yearfan]

This I totally agree with.

What I dont agree with is that his deal was market value. Good GMs sign deals like the one Flynn or Alex Smith got - yes the difference between FA and a trade play a part with Flynn, and the availability of Peyton Manning effected them both.

But the Hawks and 49ers played it smart and didnt over pursue and then have to cough up wild cash. Inflation goes up with time though, right?

Again I LOVE the Cardinals taking the swing on Kolb and feel it still may pan out. I don't like how the Cardinals adjusted to a buyers market last year and strapped themselves to Kolb with no recourse if he played poorly - which if that happens with the 49ers or Seahawks....they have a rip cord in place.

Its called mitigating risk and smart business. I cant believe anyone is arguing this really.

Disagree with you AF. Graves had it set up where we could get rid of Kolb after only one season. Thus the $7 million bonus due this year. If we had gotten Manning, we could have just walked away from Kolb and paid for our mistake in a very short time. Same for the situation that if Skelton had really shone to be our QB of the future.

I think it was a smart deal.

 

[40yearfan]

I never take the opposite side just to argue. You and I just disagree on how the Cards run things most of the time.

Sheesh you are getting old and crotchity. I can't even pay you a compliment without you getting all growly. Did you retire also?

 

[Stout]

Disagree with you AF. Graves had it set up where we could get rid of Kolb after only one season. Thus the $7 million bonus due this year. If we had gotten Manning, we could have just walked away from Kolb and paid for our mistake in a very short time. Same for the situation that if Skelton had really shone to be our QB of the future.

I think it was a smart deal.

So wait, he gives up a good player and a 2nd round pick for a QBOF, but we're supposed to give him credit for making it easy to cut him after one year? Seems Graves can do no wrong here. Kolb sucks? He was smart for making the contract easier to get rid of. If Kolb pans out? He was smart for the trade?

No, doesn't work that way.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

So wait, he gives up a good player and a 2nd round pick for a QBOF, but we're supposed to give him credit for making it easy to cut him after one year? Seems Graves can do no wrong here. Kolb sucks? He was smart for making the contract easier to get rid of. If Kolb pans out? He was smart for the trade?

No, doesn't work that way.

Think you've essentially made the argument for why it does "work that way".

 

[BigRedRage]

Think you've essentially made the argument for why it does "work that way".

+1

 

[Stout]

Think you've essentially made the argument for why it does "work that way".

No, because if the Kolb trade doesn't work out, he's stupid for giving up what he gave up. If the Kolb trade does work out, why should we be crowing that he could have been cut after one season? No, this is NOT a win-win situation. In fact, if Kolb doesn't pan out, it will be a lose-lose situation, because the 'brilliance' of trading for a QBOF with a contract that makes him easier to cut means nothing if you don't actually cut him.

Then again, Graves just did as he was told with this trade, I'm sure, so all the plaudits and any criticism should just go to Michael Bidwill.

 

[Phrazbit]

So wait, he gives up a good player and a 2nd round pick for a QBOF, but we're supposed to give him credit for making it easy to cut him after one year? Seems Graves can do no wrong here. Kolb sucks? He was smart for making the contract easier to get rid of. If Kolb pans out? He was smart for the trade?

No, doesn't work that way.

What if he sucked and you give him his money anyway? I guess thats worse case scenario though...

Oh... wait...

 

[Crazy Canuck]

No, because if the Kolb trade doesn't work out, he's stupid for giving up what he gave up. If the Kolb trade does work out, why should we be crowing that he could have been cut after one season? No, this is NOT a win-win situation. In fact, if Kolb doesn't pan out, it will be a lose-lose situation, because the 'brilliance' of trading for a QBOF with a contract that makes him easier to cut means nothing if you don't actually cut him.

Then again, Graves just did as he was told with this trade, I'm sure, so all the plaudits and any criticism should just go to Michael Bidwill.

The contract, which the whole of the FO signed off on, is designed with a number of triggers that allows the Cards to terminate.

It's obvious that given the way it was created they expect to make a decision to go forward or not after year two.

Thus, the FO committed themselves to an attempt to find a QBOF at the cost of a cornerback; a second round pick and $21M dollars at the end of year two.

As one who can't devine the future, I'll wait until then before offering plaudits or brickbats.

 

[40yearfan]

So wait, he gives up a good player and a 2nd round pick for a QBOF, but we're supposed to give him credit for making it easy to cut him after one year? Seems Graves can do no wrong here. Kolb sucks? He was smart for making the contract easier to get rid of. If Kolb pans out? He was smart for the trade?

No, doesn't work that way.

It's called hedging your bet Stout. Depending on circumstances, it can't always be done, but thanks to the way the contract was structured, it was accomplished. The fact the Cards decided to keep him does not play into the equation. The situation was such that they had a choice which is really the crux of the matter.

 

[kerouac9]

Let me clear this up 82. The people who defend Graves are the morons. Everybody who has a clear rational view point on this team on this board gets how bad Graves is. Some are just more tolerant. I can list them all out, but they are likely all nodding their head as they read this very paragraph and know who they are.

The burden of proof is on YOU and crispy57. Tell me why Graves is good. Tell me what you perceive to be his strength. Tell me why he is not a bottom five "GM" in the NFL and I defy you to find me 5 guys worse.

Clearly I am the one forcing binary opinions on other posters on this board.

 

[kerouac9]

It's because you make them binary. You consistently rag on people when you think they are "wrong" or "misinformed," when really, the information you have is either distorted by you or you have a difficult time understanding what is being discussed.

When your boy AZF insists that Aaron Rodgers was an established Franchise quarterback when he got his contract extension, is he "'wrong' or 'misinformed'" or am I distorting what he said and having "a difficult time understanding what is being discussed"?

What about when he gushes about Matt Cassel's divisional championship and deep playoff experience with the Patriots?

What about the similar experience that Matt Schaub had with the Falcons before being traded to Houston compared to Kolb's?

Please let me know, because I'd love to correct the deep logical issues that I apparently display when I... you know... look things up before posting them.

 

[Cheesebeef]

When your boy AZF insists that Aaron Rodgers was an established Franchise quarterback when he got his contract extension, is he "'wrong' or 'misinformed'" or am I distorting what he said and having "a difficult time understanding what is being discussed"?

What about when he gushes about Matt Cassel's divisional championship and deep playoff experience with the Patriots?

What about the similar experience that Matt Schaub had with the Falcons before being traded to Houston compared to Kolb's?

Please let me know, because I'd love to correct the deep logical issues that I apparently display when I... you know... look things up before posting them.

why don't you guys all have sex and just get it over with already!

 

[Stout]

why don't you guys all have sex and just get it over with already!

lol Okay, Banky

 

[THESMEL]

It is Graves body of work that I think can be easily upgrade, I may be harsh but I give Denny the credit for building and developing our playoff window. Kurt, Edge, Dansby,Hayes, AW, Rolle, Q, Fitz, Deuce, even BJ was not as big a whiff as after Denny whiffs?

We went 5 years without a drafted Cardinal being signed long term ? I think Dansby and Hayes by Denny, and then only Free agents until AW and Fitz 5years later, there were some tenders and Francisco, maybe.

I think Rod Graves is a good man, but I would not see other teams fighting over him at GM? I think we need a replacement before we fire him as GM, Keim is respected and wanted by other clubs, but I think we need a freshness in the front office, a strong team supervisor as well as personnell and contract experience.

I like the 3 UFL coches, Marty Schottenheimer, Denny Green, Jim Fassel upgrade Rod graves at GM. I don't see none of them allowing the rushing attempts to drop below 40% with Kurt Warner! I think there is a reason Whiz did better under Cower, and it is the same reason Buddy Ryan did not succeed when we gave him full control.

It is a rare bird that fly GM and HC in proper balance, I have no confidence in this staff but remain hopefull, Mike Miller really? He's the best OC they can sign? the Players would not unite behind Leinart? Like Coughlin didn't catch it when he dropped Kurt and went with Eli.

We have flaws and I close my eyes and squint through my fingers, not just players and money flaws, but philosphy and legacy flaws. But we do have high character personell across the board, I do applaud that.

http://www.ufl-football.com/

 

[Covert Rain]

why don't you guys all have sex and just get it over with already!

 

[40yearfan]

why don't you guys all have sex and just get it over with already!

Does it have to be with each other, by themselves or can women be involved?