Fire Rod Graves Now

[Arizona's Finest]

I have watched (IMHO) Azfinest lose his mind a couple of times on this board and they always were about QB's. Now you can say that PM is just an example of why RG should be fired but how telling is it that you chose that example.

I would be more than okay with the Cards upgrading the GM position but it's just crazy to me how many fans make him the main reason for any Cardinal woes.

lol yes I lose mind over the QB from time to time. Peyton and not securing him was the impetus for this thread, and how we don't need someone who "isn't all bad" but rather is GREAT. Thats how you land franchise changing players like Manning. By having stellar leadership from top to bottom (see Pats, Steelers, Eagles, etc) We deserve that at this point.

As other have pointed out Graves isnt singularly responsible for PM not being here. But he didnt help, and his contract with Kolb plays a big part of that.

How a guy like K9 can build his whole ASFN rep on being the guy who opposes losing Dansby, trading DRC, not resigning CC and yet because his favorite poster is on the other side of the issue, defend the practices and ineptness of our current GM is beyond me. The fact that he is citing AARON RODGERS as the a example of guys who got alot of upfront and 2nd year money and compare that to Kolb is ridiculous. Sweet example K9 - Peyton will get 58 million if he passes his physical next year for 2013. Kinda apples and oranges you know?

You should be comparing guys like Alex Smith and Matt Flynn. Tell me again which one of those guys is getting 19 million in 8 months?

Again hes a contrarian to be a contrarian. He doesnt have a consistent value set. He just likes to bicker and take the less popular line of thinking.

Its a sweet schtick really. Just gotta see the forest through the trees.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

It's actually "Straw Man". When things go good, Michael gets the credit. When things go bad, our wrath turns to Graves. Hell, no wonder the Bidwills see value in the guy.

Does Michael handle contract negotions or does that fall to RG?

How are you still missing the point? The one area that Graves has been compartmentalized is the area where we are absolutely behind 90% of other teams.

Our spending and overall franchise image is in good hands with Mike B. You have to seperate the roles and look a little deeper. We succeed IN SPITE of Rod unless you can point out something seminal he has done since he has been here that he was primarly responsbile for.

 

[kerouac9]

lol yes I lose mind over the QB from time to time. Peyton and not securing him was the impetus for this thread, and how we don't need someone who "isn't all bad" but rather is GREAT. Thats how you land franchise changing players like Manning. By having stellar leadership from top to bottom (see Pats, Steelers, Eagles, etc) We deserve that at this point.

As other have pointed out Graves isnt singularly responsible for PM not being here. But he didnt help, and his contract with Kolb plays a big part of that.

How a guy like K9 can build his whole ASFN rep on being the guy who opposes losing Dansby, trading DRC, not resigning CC and yet because his favorite poster is on the other side of the issue, defend the practices and ineptness of our current GM is beyond me. The fact that he is citing AARON RODGERS as the a example of guys who got alot of upfront and 2nd year money and compare that to Kolb is ridiculous. Sweet example K9 - Peyton will get 58 million if he passes his physical next year for 2013. Kinda apples and oranges you know?

You should be comparing guys like Alex Smith and Matt Flynn. Tell me again which one of those guys is getting 19 million in 8 months?

Again hes a contrarian to be a contrarian. He doesnt have a consistent value set. He just likes to bicker and take the less popular line of thinking.

Its a sweet schtick really. Just gotta see the forest through the trees.

Aaron Rodgers when he got his extension was an unproven quarterback with something like 6 career starts under his belt. They were really good starts, but there was a limited sample size. His contract right now is actually criminally undervalued. He's getting paid Kevin Kolb money.

I'm not sure why it makes sense to compare Kolb's contract struture to two guys who got paid a year later. Doesn't it make more sense to compare the contract structures of his predecessors?

What's the argument for comparing Kolb to Alex Smith and Matt Flynn? Alex Smith is a mid-level quarterback at best; no one believes in him or he would have had a more promising market. Matt Flynn clearly hasn't convinced the NFL that he can be the guy after just two starts.

Kolb, on the other hand, convinced you, TJ, and apparently the Cardinals brass that he had the potential to be a Franchise quarterback, and so they paid him along those lines--in line with what Aaron Rodgers got when he extended with Green Bay ($12.9 million signing bonus, $7.9 million roster bonus the second year) in 2009. You can see for yourself here.

Your (revised) comparison to Kolb, Matt Schaub, got a $7 million signing bonus and about $6.5 million in salary the first two years of his contract, and probably had a less impressive resume coming into Houston, as well as signing his deal five years before Kolb.

Matt Cassel, the most recent comparison to Kolb, signed his extension in 2009. He got a $10.2 million roster bonus the first year, plus $16.75 million in salary the first two years of the deal. All of these figures are perfectly available if you want to check your assumptions against some facts before flying off the handle.

I'm not defending all the practices of Rod Graves. If you actually read my post you'd have seen that. I'm saying that it's ridiculous for you to have desired Kolb so ardently ten months ago and now be mad because we had to pay him market value on a perfectly normally structured contract. If you'd been listening to me last offseason, you would have heard that the cost of Kolb wasn't just DRC and a second-round pick, plus whatever contract we gave him. The cost was going to be no change at the quarterback position until at least 2013.

It's funny that I'm considered a contrarian by those people like you who are consistently wrong about almost everything. I came correct on Daryl Washington once he proved to be more than I expected he could be. I've been consistent on liking Early Doucet, Sam Acho, O'Brien Schofield, Deuce Lutui, Larry Fitzgerald (over Boldin), Steve Breaston, Beanie Wells, and Adrian Wilson. I've been consistent on not liking Joey Porter, Todd Heap, Derek Anderson, Max Hall, Mike Adams, Stewart Bradley, Paris Lenon, and Russ Grimm (Joeshmo and I were the only ones skeptical on him from Jump Street).

If you consistently have opinions that are opposite of mine, you're more likely to be proven wrong over time than you are to "show me up."

 

[DoTheDew]

The main reason we didn't have the money for Manning (and I say money because we don't know that he'd have chosen us if we did) is Fitz. Not only because he is the highest paid player on our roster, but also because he was one of our main reasons for going after Kolb. Many around here have been preaching we had to get Kolb for Fitz to extend. If that's true, then we never could have got Manning anyways because he wouldn't have been considering us if Fitz was going to a different team.

 

[john h]

We do have a strong FO leader. His name is Mike Bidwill and he owns the organization. If you think he is going to go out and hire a stong GM and turn the reins over to him, you have not been a Cardinal fan for very long.

You seem to be saying Mike Bidwill and Jerry Jones are one and the same. Maybe that is true. I do not know but I sure hope not. Jerry won when he had strong coaches like Jimmy Johnson who insisted on doing it his way. Of course Jimmy had been a very good football player himself. Mike learned his football up in the booth with his dad. Good leaders do not try and do it all themselves. They surround themselves with guys who do know how to do it. The owner can do anything he wants. If he wants to win he will not try and do it all. Hire the best you can and listen to their advice. You cannot delegate responsibility but you sure can delegate and should delegate authority in a large organization. The CEO of Honda cannot build a car all by himself but he can hire the people who can. In days gone by the owners were sometimes the coach and GM. Paul Brown, George Halas, etc. That was in days gone by.

 

[john h]

If anyone whines about Peyton Manning choosing Denver and then uses it to bash Graves, they've lost all credibility IMO. Sometimes, you aren't given the opportunity to close a deal. You need a willing partner. If Fitz and Whiz weren't enough to do it, Graves certainly wasn't going to put us over the finish line.

These are probably the same people who bash the Cards for not trading down in the draft, even though there were no other willing teams. Some people act like we can unilaterally reshape the power structure of the NFL.

This is in no way a defense of Graves, but blaming him for things beyond his control is irrational at best.

I am sure no fan of Graves but in no way do I blame him for Manning not signing with us. I have concluded we are better off not having signed Manning so if Graves is responsible then Kudos to him. I never thought Manning would come here in the first place. It was not all about money with Manning. A 6 year contract for a 36 year old injured QB? Almost $100 million dollars. I do not see that playing out very well for Denver. Glad to see all this come to an end. Now they will start on where will Tebow go as if that is important. What a year with the lockout, Manning, Tebow, Peyton of N.O fame. Our team has done nothing of newsworthy since we went to the Superbowl.

 

[crisper57]

Does Michael handle contract negotions or does that fall to RG?

How are you still missing the point? The one area that Graves has been compartmentalized is the area where we are absolutely behind 90% of other teams.

Our spending and overall franchise image is in good hands with Mike B. You have to seperate the roles and look a little deeper. We succeed IN SPITE of Rod unless you can point out something seminal he has done since he has been here that he was primarly responsbile for.

I am pretty sure MB was responsible for the Fitz contract, so I don't really know how much of that is still on RG either.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Aaron Rodgers when he got his extension was an unproven quarterback with something like 6 career starts under his belt. They were really good starts, but there was a limited sample size. His contract right now is actually criminally undervalued. He's getting paid Kevin Kolb money.

I'm not sure why it makes sense to compare Kolb's contract struture to two guys who got paid a year later. Doesn't it make more sense to compare the contract structures of his predecessors?

What's the argument for comparing Kolb to Alex Smith and Matt Flynn? Alex Smith is a mid-level quarterback at best; no one believes in him or he would have had a more promising market. Matt Flynn clearly hasn't convinced the NFL that he can be the guy after just two starts.

Kolb, on the other hand, convinced you, TJ, and apparently the Cardinals brass that he had the potential to be a Franchise quarterback, and so they paid him along those lines--in line with what Aaron Rodgers got when he extended with Green Bay ($12.9 million signing bonus, $7.9 million roster bonus the second year) in 2009. You can see for yourself here.

Your (revised) comparison to Kolb, Matt Schaub, got a $7 million signing bonus and about $6.5 million in salary the first two years of his contract, and probably had a less impressive resume coming into Houston, as well as signing his deal five years before Kolb.

Matt Cassel, the most recent comparison to Kolb, signed his extension in 2009. He got a $10.2 million roster bonus the first year, plus $16.75 million in salary the first two years of the deal. All of these figures are perfectly available if you want to check your assumptions against some facts before flying off the handle.

Shaub is the only accurate comparison you made based on what we knew about the players prior to getting a new contract.

Rodgers already had shown he was a franchise guy the year before he got paid so not a comparsion. You can look at your own numbers for that. They also were going to overpay at the time because they knew EXACLT what they were getting with him being their behind Farve the last three years. There was not much of an unknown quanity with paying him. Cassel is completley different too as he had a full season of starts, a division title, and a playoff run under his belt.

So lets look at Schaub again:

Shaub 13.5 million first two years - Kolb 19 million. If Kolb had gotten 13.5 and had his deal structured like the Texans structured for Schaub, you wouldnt hear me complaining. Tha 6 million is a BIG difference for comensurate players with similar resumes going into getting the new contract.

The fact is we both think Kolb got too much. Why are you arguing with me on this? Are you saying it didn't play apart in our ability to go chase Peyton? Good team plan for this type of thing and have exit strategies. Its like the Cardinals and Graves never considered the possibility Kolb would underwhelm and need to be cut prior to Year 2. Which was this close to happening.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

I am pretty sure MB was responsible for the Fitz contract, so I don't really know how much of that is still on RG either.

Huh? He was responsible for signing the check. Again the total money is not thew issue. Fitz deserves that. The opt out, no franchise tag, and accelerators are ALL Rod Graves. Just like we saw with Levi. Stupid way to do business IMO.

 

[Covert Rain]

Frak Rod Graves. I still think he sucks. I think between the coaching staff and MB they make most of the decisions and Rod Graves is along for the ride. Ofcourse I don't know for a fact but I have seen and heard enough of RG to say IMO he doesn't hold a candle to good GM's in this league. I think the FO has managed to turn things around DESPITE RG not because of him.

 

[kerouac9]

Shaub is the only accurate comparison you made based on what we knew about the players prior to getting a new contract.

Rodgers already had shown he was a franchise guy the year before he got paid so not a comparsion. You can look at your own numbers for that. They also were going to overpay at the time because they knew EXACLT what they were getting with him being their behind Farve the last three years. There was not much of an unknown quanity with paying him. Cassel is completley different too as he had a full season of starts, a division title, and a playoff run under his belt.

So lets look at Schaub again:

Shaub 13.5 million first two years - Kolb 19 million. If Kolb had gotten 13.5 and had his deal structured like the Texans structured for Schaub, you wouldnt hear me complaining. Tha 6 million is a BIG difference for comensurate players with similar resumes going into getting the new contract.

The fact is we both think Kolb got too much. Why are you arguing with me on this? Are you saying it didn't play apart in our ability to go chase Peyton? Good team plan for this type of thing and have exit strategies. Its like the Cardinals and Graves never considered the possibility Kolb would underwhelm and need to be cut prior to Year 2. Which was this close to happening.

If you're just going to make up your own facts, then we don't have anything to talk about at all.

Schaub getting $13.5 million in 2007 is essentially the same thing as Kolb getting $19 million in 2011. There's inflation in all contracts, and Kolb had proven more as an NFL player than Schaub had at that point. Schaub had 2 NFL starts and 161 NFL regular-season attempts to that point. Kolb had 7 starts and 319 attempts when he was traded, as well as two NFC Player of the Week honors and a $10 million contract extension.

As for Rodgers, he had not shown that he was a franchise quarterback when he got the extension. He signed a 6-year, $65 million contract extension on Halloween 2008. At that point he had 7 NFL starts and was 4-3 on the way to a 6-10 season. Sound familiar?

And you don't know what you're talking about with Cassel. He went 10-5 as the Patriots starter, but missed the playoffs altogether. You only show how ignorant you are saying that Cassel had "division title and playoff run" under his belt when he got extended.

 

[kerouac9]

If you come back to try and somehow mitigate your ignorance here, AZF, and say that the Packers knew that Aaron Rodgers was going to be a star BEFORE those seven starts in 2008, I'd ask you to look to the Green Bay Packers 2008 draft. That's the one where they took Brian Brohm in the 2nd round and Matt Flynn in the 7th round.

It's probably because the Packers were so sure that Aaron Rodgers was going to be a Franchise Quarterback after four offseasons of practices that they invested two draft picks in the same position just as they were anointing Rodgers the starter.

 

[Cbus cardsfan]

Is Rod Graves in Columbus? I was on my way home form the golf course and I passed a red SUV with vanity plates "SNAIL". I wish I had my phone on so I could have taken a picture.

 

[crisper57]

Add the Jets GM to the list of incompetent GM's. Why try to sign Tebow when Sanchez is struggling and just had a contract extension?

Oh, and Jerry Jones also sucks. When he is involved in personnel decisions, they lose.

So there are 4 that I would rank lower than Graves.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Add the Jets GM to the list of incompetent GM's. Why try to sign Tebow when Sanchez is struggling and just had a contract extension?

Oh, and Jerry Jones also sucks. When he is involved in personnel decisions, they lose.

So there are 4 that I would rank lower than Graves.

this would be true... if only the Jets and Cowboys didn't continually have better records than us.

 

[Duckjake]

It's funny that I'm considered a contrarian by those people like you who are consistently wrong about almost everything

Nonsense. You are considered a contrarian by those who have seen you argue both sides of an issue just because you like to debate.

If I weren't so lazy I could go back and find posts where you disagreed with me after I had agreed with you.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

Nonsense. You are considered a contrarian by those who have seen you argue both sides of an issue just because you like to debate.

If I weren't so lazy I could go back and find posts where you disagreed with me after I had agreed with you.

Exactly.

 

[TJ]

Nonsense. You are considered a contrarian by those who have seen you argue both sides of an issue just because you like to debate.

If I weren't so lazy I could go back and find posts where you disagreed with me after I had agreed with you.

It's also hard to be "wrong" when you're on both sides of the fence.

 

[40yearfan]

Nonsense. You are considered a contrarian by those who have seen you argue both sides of an issue just because you like to debate.

If I weren't so lazy I could go back and find posts where you disagreed with me after I had agreed with you.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

 

[40yearfan]

Like this post. One thing I never get is how an average fan can even possibly comprehend what a GM does on a daily basis. I don't know what ya'll do, but I'm basically just an office worker. A peon. A peasant. A drone. I'm not the captain of industry or some tycoon or some freaking genius. I really can't realistically comprehend what his day is like. And I don't think most of you can either. Trying to is a joke. Thinking I know better is a joke. I speculate all kinds of crap, none of which is probably true.

And if it wasn't for a whole bunch of people just like you, this country would come to a grinding halt. We can't all be the boss. A boss who doesn't have anyone to work for him can't do all the work by himself. So don't sell yourself short. We might not be the wheel, but a wheel without spokes won't run very long.

 

[Duckjake]

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

Try and find one time where I've argued with someone who agreed with me or changed my stance on something for no apparent reason. You're getting more senile every day.

 

[Darkside]

And if it wasn't for a whole bunch of people just like you, this country would come to a grinding halt. We can't all be the boss. A boss who doesn't have anyone to work for him can't do all the work by himself. So don't sell yourself short. We might not be the wheel, but a wheel without spokes won't run very long.

There's nothing wrong with recognizing one's current place in society or the structure of one's own company. It's called reality, something most people are loathe or unable to accept rationally.

No, we can't all be the boss, and frankly some of us don't want to be the boss. I'm not selling myself short, I'm merely fully aware and comprehending of my own situation in life and the situation of others around me. If I don't want to lead or manage people, that's a decision I've made. Totally different than saying I want to and haven't had the opportunity or simply saying that I can't. To be honest, since we're being real here, I just can't stand how fake I have to be as a manager. Especially a middle manager: you have to be fake to those above you and employees below you. It's unbearable for me. Completely unbearable. And to those saying you don't have to be fake, you're lying to yourselves. And you know it.

Your wheel analogy reminds me of Buddhism frankly. Although they say don't be the spokes or the rim, because you're always up and down and going crazy with emotion and feelings and attachment, but be the center of the spokes, where you're always kind of in the middle, turning with the wheel of life. I dig that.

Don't want to manage, don't want to make a lot of money dude. It's more than I'm willing to deal with. I barely like people as it is; sitting there and smiling in their faces while I'd rather kick them in the nads isn't my thing.

 

[kerouac9]

Exactly.

It's also hard to be "wrong" when you're on both sides of the fence.

What a great job you've both done in changing the subject for how embarrassingly quickly you turned on Kevin Kolb from being the next Franchise Quarterback in the NFL to a guy that you'd like to fire Rod Graves for trading for after you agitated for the trade for six months last year.

When you're wrong, best change the subject.

 

[40yearfan]

Try and find one time where I've argued with someone who agreed with me or changed my stance on something for no apparent reason. You're getting more senile every day.

C'mon Dj. Is it so hard to admit that you like to debate and will actually take the opposite side to get an argument going? I can think of numerous times you have done that to me.

And why so agitated. It was an off-handed compliment. There aren't many people able to pull something like that off.

 

[40yearfan]

I am sure no fan of Graves but in no way do I blame him for Manning not signing with us. I have concluded we are better off not having signed Manning so if Graves is responsible then Kudos to him. I never thought Manning would come here in the first place. It was not all about money with Manning. A 6 year contract for a 36 year old injured QB? Almost $100 million dollars. I do not see that playing out very well for Denver. Glad to see all this come to an end. Now they will start on where will Tebow go as if that is important. What a year with the lockout, Manning, Tebow, Peyton of N.O fame. Our team has done nothing of newsworthy since we went to the Superbowl.

Resigning Wilson, DD and Fitz wasn't newsworthy?