For the last time

[CaptTurbo]

Why is everyone crying about this.

IT WAS A GOOD MOVE!!!!

Maybe we gave a little too much for it but 2 1st rounders beat a top 10 pick almost every time.

Only Red Fury had forsight to know who is good and who is bad before the actual player steps on the field.

I am suuuure he knew that wadsworth would be a bust and jones too.

Unfortunatley regular people like us and graves et al dont have red fury's vision.

I would trade a top 10 for 2 first rounders EVERY YEAR!

 

[nidan]

Which post?

#12 on this thread

 

[Red Fury]

Why is everyone crying about this.

IT WAS A GOOD MOVE!!!!

Maybe we gave a little too much for it but 2 1st rounders beat a top 10 pick almost every time.

Only Red Fury had forsight to know who is good and who is bad before the actual player steps on the field.

I am suuuure he knew that wadsworth would be a bust and jones too.

Unfortunatley regular people like us and graves et al dont have red fury's vision.

I would trade a top 10 for 2 first rounders EVERY YEAR!

I think that most people would disagree with you on trading down being a good move.

 

[CaptTurbo]

I think that most people would disagree with you on trading down being a good move.

I dont think so. You name a top 10 draft pick that was great. Then ill name a top 10 pick that was a bust. lets see who can name names longer. Then if you win you can keep screaming about this. if i win you never speak of it again.

Deal?

 

[Mulli]

I dont think so. You name a top 10 draft pick that was great. Then ill name a top 10 pick that was a bust. lets see who can name names longer. Then if you win you can keep screaming about this. if i win you never speak of it again.

Deal?

Wow that sounds like an evening of fun for the whole family. Do I have to read all of those posts as you do that?

 

[CaptTurbo]

Wow that sounds like an evening of fun for the whole family. Do I have to read all of those posts as you do that?

Yes! no soup for you!

EDIT: Dont worry his list wont last that long to be annoying lol.

 

[nidan]

That much I can promise you

 

[clif]

ryan leaf!! OH! did you guys start yet??

 

[Red Fury]

I dont think so. You name a top 10 draft pick that was great. Then ill name a top 10 pick that was a bust. lets see who can name names longer. Then if you win you can keep screaming about this. if i win you never speak of it again.

Deal?

Better yet, look at the Cards latest drafts and you'll see why they are struggling.

'96 Rice - gone
'97 Knight - gone
'98 Wadsworth - gone
'99 Boston - gone
'00 Jones - gone
'01 Davis - ???
'02 Bryant - soon to be gone
'03 Pace - soon to be gone

No one can be 100% on their drafts but when you annually are picking in the top 10 you have to hit a few.

What year do you want to start in?

 

[Red Fury]

ryan leaf!! OH! did you guys start yet??

Manning

 

[lrk27]

First, with all due respect, I have to disagree with Skkorp, in saying that Graves did not want to trade down. I too have spoken with Rod, as well as several others in the organization, and he played a part in that trade. About the only ones who had no say in the trade were the coaches. As I have said before, the coaching staff wanted Suggs, but the call for the trade came from way above Mac.

As for picking Pace and Johnson, I think you guys are being a little rough on them. First off, Suggs wouldn't have put up near the numbers as a Cardinal, and would probably be struggling as a DE right now. And second, when did Byron Leftwich become the next great QB? He was OK last year for a rookie. In less time, Josh had comparable numbers. To criticize the Cards for passing on Leftwich is stupid. There are several reasons they passed on him. Don't get so hung up looking for a specific one.

Pace may not be a pro-bowler, but that's what you get when you draft on need. The master plan was not to trade down and get Pace. If they came out of the first round last year without a defensive end, the fan base would have been livid. He's still got a chance. He was forced into a bad situation last year when KVB got hurt. They didn't intend on him being an every down DE, and he wasn't prepared. He'll be better this year as a situational pass rusher. As for BJ, well, take away Anquan and I'll bet most of you are very excited about the rookie WR drafted last year. He had a good season, just overshadowed by playing next to the rookie of the year.

Relax about the trade last year. They had their reasons to pass on Suggs and Leftwich. It was not a disastrous draft. Stop looking for someone to blame because you don't like Calvin Pace. Truthfully, it was the best draft, top to bottom, that they've had in quite some time. Remember, there was only one rookie at the Pro Bowl last year, and he was a Cardinal. That alone makes it a good draft class.

 

[CardLogic]

I never said that Skkorps wasn't credible, I said that it would give him more credibility if he said what he knew rather than just telling me I'm wrong.

This web site provides more info on the Cards than any site I've seen. I'm not trying to PO Skkorps, I think he and the ASFN staff do a great job and I applaud them.

On the concept of credibility:

In additon to it's definitive meaning: to offer reasonable grounds for being believed, (this being the meaning you attach). It also carries the meaning of having integrity, i.e. - faithful, trustworthy, trusty.

They have already provided the basis of their claims; discussions with the principals involved. As a condition of recieving the knowledge of the topic, ASFN staff has adhered to the second concept: trustworthiness (i.e. - they received information that was not to be shared with the public, private conversation, off the record)

Hence, by divulging their full knowledge of the particular topic of this discourse Skkorpion and Nidan would become less credible, not more.

I hope this clears it up for you!

Oh, and if not... Red Fury

 

[Lex]

Boy, am I getting sick of people saying Suggs would have sucked for us.

He was the defensive rookie of the year.

Yes, Baltimore's defense is better than ours, but please, we've gotta start getting better somehow, and Suggs was a great place to start.

 

[spanky1]

Boy, am I getting sick of people saying Suggs would have sucked for us.

He was the defensive rookie of the year.

Yes, Baltimore's defense is better than ours, but please, we've gotta start getting better somehow, and Suggs was a great place to start.

Not as a DE in a 4-3

 

[schel]

Suggs would probably be fine as a pass rushing DE. And that's the reaosn why we drafted a DE in the first place. He can beat his man 1v1. His run support would be the problem, and that's an important skill in the 4-3 rather than counting on Ray Lewis to cover your back. Pace isn't exactly great vs the run either though. I saw him get shoved completely out of the play so many times. I still hate the fact that we passed up Suggs.

 

[ajcardfan]

I truly believe that Suggs would've had at least eight sacks last year playing DE for us.

 

[40yearfan]

I've heard of beating a dead horse, but this thread has elevated that to an art form.

C'mon Cardinals, do something important so we can have something else to talk about.

 

[Mulli]

troy aikman

 

[clif]

Manning

kijana carter

 

[Russ Smith]

As for picking Pace and Johnson, I think you guys are being a little rough on them. First off, Suggs wouldn't have put up near the numbers as a Cardinal, and would probably be struggling as a DE right now. And second, when did Byron Leftwich become the next great QB? He was OK last year for a rookie. In less time, Josh had comparable numbers. To criticize the Cards for passing on Leftwich is stupid. There are several reasons they passed on him. Don't get so hung up looking for a specific one.

.

True but Byron signed late and wound up playing almost right away as a rookie. Josh did his stats after 2 full NFL camps and one season of watching.

It's an almost impossible comparison, Josh was in a horrible offense with an overmatched OC, Leftwich was on a bad team but had Fred Taylor to hand the ball too, advantage Josh.

Leftwich started 13 games, the NFL had much more visibility of him to adjust, Josh started only 3 games and at the end of the year, advantage Leftwich.

Leftwich was sacked only 19 times in 13 starts, and only 8 times in his last 8 starts, Josh was sacked 8 times in each of his last 2 starts, 21 times in his 3 total starts. So while a year less experienced, Leftwich was way ahead of Josh in that regard and showed rapid improvement throughout the year.

Now the Josh I saw on Saturday wasn't the same guy taking all those sacks, but in terms of "feel" for the position at this stage I would give Leftwich the edge. The main problem he has is turning the ball over too much, and lack of footspeed. Josh' main problem is reliance on his feet, and the fear that he's going to miss a lot of time as a result.

For me it's an intangible thing, when I watch Leftwich I see a QB learning to play in the NFL, when I see Josh I see an athlete learning to play NFL QB. The NFL is not a forgiving league, Josh could be very good, but he could be the next Rob Johnson too if he doesn't overcome his habit of getting hit so much. There was a time Rob Johnson was a HIGHLY coveted prospect(I loved the guy) but once NFL teams figured out he couldn't handle a blitz, his career went down the toilet. Too early to say which way Josh will go, so far it looks like Green has him steered the right direction.

 

[CardLogic]

I don't recall but was Rob Johnson ever a mobile QB. All I have ever see him do is drop back and get creamed!

 

[Cheesebeef]

I've heard of beating a dead horse, but this thread has elevated that to an art form.

C'mon Cardinals, do something important so we can have something else to talk about.

couldn't have said it better myself - but I'll beat on the dead horse as well as long as I'm here.

Suggs is a stud I was leery of him and wrong, but to say he did all of his damage simply because he was on the Ravens is bubkis. You guys make it out to seem like the Ravens D was still the Ravens D from the Super Bowl - well guess what - anyone remember that whole team being GUTTED the year after the Super Bowl leaving basically Boulware, Lewis and McAllister as the only survivors? They weren't all that great when they were 7-9 and Suggs was a key component as to why they IMPROVED the next year and to think otherwise is fooling yourself. That being said, I wanted Lefty and would have been okay with Suggs, but the guy has shown one thing and one thing very important - he knows HOW TO GET THE QB and even create fumbles - ala Simeon or LT - and that is something that is just intrinsic to the best pass rushers period.

 

[Russ Smith]

I don't recall but was Rob Johnson ever a mobile QB. All I have ever see him do is drop back and get creamed!

Believe it or not yes.

Career average is 6.3 yards per rush, and that's 877 career yards, went over 300 one year in Buffalo. One year that Jake won the QB contest, Johnson actually beat him in some contest that involved running an obstacle course.

He was fast but he just never figured out when to step up, when to run, when to throw etc. He just freezes, can't explain it, had everything else, size, speed, arm, accuracy, touch, but none of that matters if you can't read a blitz and make a play.

 

[lrk27]

couldn't have said it better myself - but I'll beat on the dead horse as well as long as I'm here.

Suggs is a stud I was leery of him and wrong, but to say he did all of his damage simply because he was on the Ravens is bubkis. You guys make it out to seem like the Ravens D was still the Ravens D from the Super Bowl - well guess what - anyone remember that whole team being GUTTED the year after the Super Bowl leaving basically Boulware, Lewis and McAllister as the only survivors? They weren't all that great when they were 7-9 and Suggs was a key component as to why they IMPROVED the next year and to think otherwise is fooling yourself. That being said, I wanted Lefty and would have been okay with Suggs, but the guy has shown one thing and one thing very important - he knows HOW TO GET THE QB and even create fumbles - ala Simeon or LT - and that is something that is just intrinsic to the best pass rushers period.

While I agree Suggs is ridiculously talented, you're missing a major point. The Ravens play a 3-4 and Suggs is an OLB. The focus of offenses is Ray Lewis and Peter Boulware. He also had the luxury of only playing in pass situations, giving him fresh legs for the whold game. In Arizona, he would have been an every down DE, probably facing double teams. I don't think anyone is arguing his talent, but his chances of success in AZ were a fraction of that in Baltimore.

 

[Cheesebeef]

While I agree Suggs is ridiculously talented, you're missing a major point. The Ravens play a 3-4 and Suggs is an OLB. The focus of offenses is Ray Lewis and Peter Boulware. He also had the luxury of only playing in pass situations, giving him fresh legs for the whold game. In Arizona, he would have been an every down DE, probably facing double teams. I don't think anyone is arguing his talent, but his chances of success in AZ were a fraction of that in Baltimore.

I also don't disgaree with the above either - but some have seemed to think there was no way he would have had an impact here at all or it would be minimal and bottom line is someone with that amount of talent - with the right coaching - would have had some impact . . . although with our coaching last year, maybe he wouldn't have.