Free Agent Centers

[slinslin]

Foyle is definately not noticeably taller than Swift. If Foyle can be a starting C in your opinion , Swift can just as well.

Foyle isn't as strong as White, Foyle isn't starting or big minutes material in my opinion.

I am not sure Foyle is much better than Voshkul.

To sum it up

Foyle
- "old"
- misses like half of the current season
- undersized
- one-dimensional, no offense. Adnal Fyle.
- no room for improvement
- Cost probably like 5M$

Swift
- young , athletic, fast
- room for improvement
- multi-position player
- undersized center, good size at PF
- healthy
- 5-6M$

Camby
- "old"
- injury prone in the past when he wasn't as well build as he is now
- very good all around player
- Good size at center
- athletic, fast
-6-7M$


Unlike Penny Hardaway, Camby has kept most of his athleticism and has gotten much stronger since his early career injuries.
Also if he stays healthy for the entire season I think that is good enough to take the risk of signing him since he isn't shying away from contact or anything either.
Penny Hardaway also doesn't look like a big injury risk anymore since he proved healthy for an entire season.

Also with Camby we aren't looking at a long max contract.

 

[slinslin]

Originally posted by Chaplin
The problem is that Swift might be the only guy that will command a semi-reasonable contract, but even that will probably be too generous. If we're going to get a center, then get a center--don't get a PF who can stand-in for center.

The problem is that there aren't any centers left, and the ones that would be effective for us are either too injury-prone or unavailable.

We need a backup PF as much as a center. Donnell Harvey is MAYBE decent but not nearly as good as Swift.

Good backup centers and forwards are very valueable. Not only when your starters are injured.

 

[elindholm]

Swift minutes are also down because he missed some games and the Grizzlies are a pretty deep team.

Come on, slinslin. You know perfectly well that Swift's minutes are down because he is a head case. It has been true his entire career. He also has the reputation of not being a hard worker, and he'll do things like sit out several games with a bruised finger.

The Suns don't need scoring from their center position. Stoudemire, Marion, and whoever the shooting guard is should be the main offensive options. Foyle is as effective at cleaning up messes around the basket as any other agile near-seven-footer, and that's all the Suns really need in my opinion.

And I simply disagree that Swift is a better defender than Foyle.

 

[SirStefan32]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Foyle would be an interesting option, but I can't imagine him asking for anything less than ridiculous money, money we hopefully would not pay.

I'd rather stand pat, use the draft, and not spend if that was the alternative to getting Kobe Bryant.

I agree Chap, but we have to emember that JJ will get an extention, and new draft picks will kill our cap space.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by slinslin
We need a backup PF as much as a center. Donnell Harvey is MAYBE decent but not nearly as good as Swift.

Good backup centers and forwards are very valueable. Not only when your starters are injured.

Looking at the draft, I think we can reasonably get a backup PF that way. This draft is odd in that there are no really position players in it in the high projections beside Pavel and probably Ben Gordon. The rest are PF/SF/SG hybrids.

To me, Swift isn't a starting or backup center. He's a backup PF.

Camby would be nice, and normally I'd say take a chance IF he is healthy the rest of the year. But not at 6-7 million.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by SirStefan32
I agree Chap, but we have to emember that JJ will get an extention, and new draft picks will kill our cap space.

Our first pick might hurt us a little bit, but that second one won't as much. (Assuming we even keep it)

 

[slinslin]

Originally posted by elindholm
Swift minutes are also down because he missed some games and the Grizzlies are a pretty deep team.

Come on, slinslin. You know perfectly well that Swift's minutes are down because he is a head case. It has been true his entire career. He also has the reputation of not being a hard worker, and he'll do things like sit out several games with a bruised finger.

The Suns don't need scoring from their center position. Stoudemire, Marion, and whoever the shooting guard is should be the main offensive options. Foyle is as effective at cleaning up messes around the basket as any other agile near-seven-footer, and that's all the Suns really need in my opinion.

And I simply disagree that Swift is a better defender than Foyle.

Foyle isn't a near 7 footer. He is 6'10 listed everywhere and that seems pretty genorous.

The Suns do need offense from their center position. If they don't teams will cheat on the Suns center and make it much tougher for everyone else.

If Swift wasn't a worker there is no way he would have such a muscular body. And he really runs the floor well.

He has shown improvement since he is a rookie.

I haven't ever read that he was a headcase. There were reports in his rookie year or so that suggested he might be lazy because they expected more from a #2 pick.
But Swift was only 20 at that point. Not many big man make a real impact that early and especially not on a horrible team like those Vancouver Grizzlies.

 

[elindholm]

Foyle isn't a near 7 footer. He is 6'10 listed everywhere and that seems pretty genorous.

He appears to be the same height as most other 6' 10" players in the league (although taller than Stoudemire of course), and 6' 10" is "near" seven feet for the purposes of my point.

The Suns do need offense from their center position. If they don't teams will cheat on the Suns center and make it much tougher for everyone else.

They need someone who can move to the open spot, catch the ball, and dunk. Foyle can do that. Someone who is also a threat from 15 feet (which Foyle isn't) would be nice, but you can't have everything.

I haven't ever read that he was a headcase.

You can't be serious. Whether he is a head case, of course I don't know, but the reports have been everywhere. Last year, there was a new rumor almost every week about West trying to trade him.

He has shown improvement since he is a rookie.

True, but it was all from his first year to his second. He has shown no improvement since he was a sophomore. In fact, his numbers are down across the board since the '01-'02 season, as they were last year.

Not many big man make a real impact that early and especially not on a horrible team like those Vancouver Grizzlies.

Shouldn't it be easier, not harder, for a young big man to get nice numbers on a bad team?

 

[fordronken]

I remember reading a story somewhere about Foyle being a great person and quite a philanthropist, too. At least I think it was him.

 

[fordronken]

Wait. Actually I think he was just very involved in communities trying to promote education and politics. Maybe he's just a little too free thinking to be on a basketball team.

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by elindholm
Swift minutes are also down because he missed some games and the Grizzlies are a pretty deep team.

The Suns don't need scoring from their center position. Stoudemire, Marion, and whoever the shooting guard is should be the main offensive options. Foyle is as effective at cleaning up messes around the basket as any other agile near-seven-footer, and that's all the Suns really need in my opinion.

The sad truth is that the Suns do need scoring from the center position, although not a huge amount. That is why they are trying to turn White into a pick and roll center, which is a real challenge.

In general, I think the Suns game plan will be defined at least partially by whether the Bobcats take White in the expansion draft. My feeling is that there is about a 50/50 chance depending on who else they take. (If they take Eldon Campbell, then I would guess they would not take White unless bribed to do so).

There is certainly a case for dumping White (paying the $3 million) and replacing him with a less epxensive backup type center. White is scheduled to get $5.9 million next season, so if the same money was used for a one year contract on Divac the Suns would be better off. Unfortunately, there is no way to know if Divac would be available until after the expansion draft.

Stop gaps to replace White don't actually solve the Suns long range problem of getting a starting level center. Without White, the Suns could go up to $12-13 million for a first class center, but none are available.

Assuming the Suns lose or move White, one option would be to work out a multi-team trade to get Ratliff from the Hawks. He is currently scheduled to make $10.9 million next year on the last year of his contract. The Hawks are figuring on losing him to free agency in 2005 anyway, so they might be open to doing a deal.

Actually, Ratliff's stats are not all that impressive - 8.3 ppg and 7.2 rpg except for his 3.08 blocks per game in 31 minutes. He would be a huge improvement over White, but it would be risky to trade for him without knowing what it would take to re-sign him.

 

[elindholm]

Actually I think he was just very involved in communities trying to promote education and politics.

Yep, that's him. Details are at www.adonalfoyle.com.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by George O'Brien


Assuming the Suns lose or move White, one option would be to work out a multi-team trade to get Ratliff from the Hawks. He is currently scheduled to make $10.9 million next year on the last year of his contract. The Hawks are figuring on losing him to free agency in 2005 anyway, so they might be open to doing a deal.

Actually, Ratliff's stats are not all that impressive - 8.3 ppg and 7.2 rpg except for his 3.08 blocks per game in 31 minutes. He would be a huge improvement over White, but it would be risky to trade for him without knowing what it would take to re-sign him.

Wouldn't Howard Eisley be an attractive option for the Hawks? Maybe?

 

[F-Dog]

I think that Foyle was one of the few NBA players to come out publicly against the war on Iraq. (Not that that's going to win him any love in Arizona.)

If it's Foyle I'm remembering, he came across as smart, humble, and fairly eloquent--a good guy to root for. I also like what I've seen of his play.



The main problem I have with Foyle is that he's a backup/fifth starter-type, and the Suns already have a couple of those. I think what the team needs right now is a multi-dimensional threat at center, and I see Foyle's game as fundamentally limited.

 

[Chaplin]

When does a fan become satisfied? What Little Jake lacks in his game, Foyle excels. But what Foyle lacks in HIS game is what Little Jake excels. So what do you do? Continue to pile up contracts of players that are good in one are and not so good in another? Or wait until one comes along that is good in all aspects?

Unfortunately, in today's NBA, neither choice is a good one.

Together, Foyle and Little Jake would be a great player--but they would be a 7 million dollar one, at least. Is it worth it? Not sure.

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Wouldn't Howard Eisley be an attractive option for the Hawks? Maybe?

Howard Eiseley isn't an attractive option for any team. Eisley has been decent at times as the backup point guard and awful at others. The bottom line is that at most he is a $1-2 million player that will make over $6 million this season and the two after it.

The problem I have with Foyle, and Ratliff, and Marcus Camby is that these guys are always injured.

Slin, either you have not ever read an article about Stromile Swift, or your subconscious is so in love with him that you are ignoring what you don't want to hear. Almost every article or story about swift includes something about his terrible work ethic. He is also only 6'9".

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Wouldn't Howard Eisley be an attractive option for the Hawks? Maybe?

In your dreams.

I went back and looked at Eisley's career stats and still cannot figure out how on earth he got Layton to give him this contract. His last good year was in Utah, 98-99 when he averaged 7.4 ppg on 44.6% shooting, 3.7 assists per game in 20.6 minutes. His only good year in NY was in 2002-03 when he had 9.1 ppg on 41.7% and and 5.4 assists in 27.4 minutes. Good, but hardly worth over $6 million.

Mostly his shooting percentage has been pretty dismal: 39.3% in 2000-01, 33.7% in 2001-02, and 37.9% this year. He was a decent 3 point shooter in Utah, but he is down to 24.2% in Phoenix.

Historically, Eisley has generated a lot of assists per minute played. Maybe if he just focused on passing the ball he would be OK. Just don't let him shoot.

 

[slinslin]

Originally posted by Chaplin
When does a fan become satisfied? What Little Jake lacks in his game, Foyle excels. But what Foyle lacks in HIS game is what Little Jake excels.

What?

Foyle excels in offense, playmaking, passing, size....? That's news to me.

Foyle is a better defender that Jake that is it. Jake is giving more hustle.

 

[elindholm]

The problem I have with Foyle, and Ratliff, and Marcus Camby is that these guys are always injured.

Why do you say Foyle is always injured?

Games missed each season:

'97-'98: 27 (but he was a little-used rookie, so those may have been DNP-CDs)
'98-'99: 6
'99-'00: 6
'00-'01: 24
'01-'02: 3
'02-'03: 0

This year has been bad, but other than that he's been quite healthy by big man standards.

 

[sunsfn]

Toward the end of last year Curry for Chicago was playing very good basketball. This year he has dropped off again.

This is his third year and it will take him another year or two before he is a real force in the middle.

I really think this guy can be a very good center eventually. There is talk that he does not want to practice and get in shape.......if I played for the Bulls I probably would not be the best at effort either, none of them seem to be.

There certainly is question marks about Curry, but if the suns had a way to get him I would be happy, and I think a change of scenery would help him improve his game. He has another year plus the teams 4th year option on his cantract, and then you would be able to see if he is a player.

Tyson Chandler is going to be real good if his back holds up. I have read some articles on the internet by opposing gm's and they do not think he would bring much in trade at the present time because of his bad back.

Chicago is screwed up with a screwed up coach.

Time for a trade.........Curry to the Suns.........

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
Howard Eiseley isn't an attractive option for any team. Eisley has been decent at times as the backup point guard and awful at others. The bottom line is that at most he is a $1-2 million player that will make over $6 million this season and the two after it.

The problem I have with Foyle, and Ratliff, and Marcus Camby is that these guys are always injured.

Slin, either you have not ever read an article about Stromile Swift, or your subconscious is so in love with him that you are ignoring what you don't want to hear. Almost every article or story about swift includes something about his terrible work ethic. He is also only 6'9".

Joe Mama

That's not what I meant, but ok. He's better than Jacque Vaughn, I'll tell you that.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by slinslin
What?

Foyle excels in offense, playmaking, passing, size....? That's news to me.

Foyle is a better defender that Jake that is it. Jake is giving more hustle.

Defense and shotblocking.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by sunsfn


Time for a trade.........Curry to the Suns.........

I would be all for that, but he again would be another big man who would be too expensive.

 

[Joe Mama]

Sorry Eric. Maybe he had a bunch of DNP's because I thought he had missed a lot of games over the last couple of years.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

Originally posted by sunsfn
Toward the end of last year Curry for Chicago was playing very good basketball. This year he has dropped off again.

This is his third year and it will take him another year or two before he is a real force in the middle.

I really think this guy can be a very good center eventually. There is talk that he does not want to practice and get in shape.......if I played for the Bulls I probably would not be the best at effort either, none of them seem to be.

There certainly is question marks about Curry, but if the suns had a way to get him I would be happy, and I think a change of scenery would help him improve his game. He has another year plus the teams 4th year option on his cantract, and then you would be able to see if he is a player.

Chicago is screwed up with a screwed up coach.

Time for a trade.........Curry to the Suns.........

Who knows. Lately Kwame Brown has been playing great after being considered a complete flop for most of his career. Everyone says that it takes a few years for big men to develop, but it is hard to deal with how bad they play until then. If ever.

For all of his problems, Curry puts up pretty good numbers for his price: 12.7 ppg and 5.9 rpg in 27 minutes and he makes $3.08 million. He has one more guarenteed and one as RFA.

For the Bulls to trade Curry, they will want a proven player in return. I can't see them starting over with a draft pick. So even if Curry would be worth having, I don't see any reasonable way for the Suns to get him.