Game 7 NBA Finals Spurs at Miami

[82CardsGrad]

I hate attempting to play the game of comparing and rating "who is better" with players from different eras and whom bring so many different aspects to the game.
Yea, LeBron is perhaps most like Magic... however, Magic was not nearly as physically imposing as is LeBron... and, right at this moment, LeBron is a bigger outside threat than Magic ever was...
LeBron and MJ are nothing alike - same for Kobe. Heck, you could maybe draw a better comparison between LeBron and say - Karl Malone than LeBron and MJ or Kobe...

I would argue that there may have never been another player in the NBA that matches LeBron from a physical tools perspective.
And, while I've never really been a LeBron fan due to the way he handled his departure from Cleveland, I can now give the guy HUGE props for winning back to back titles and performing in the clutch the way he has 2 years straight.
He is by far the best conditioned player each time he steps onto the court. And he has clearly worked on his weaknesses and is now a legit outside shooter.
And the way he handled himself in the interviews after the game last night shows me his is humble and appreciative of the God-given talents he's been gifted with. He was actually likeable last night...

I'll just leave it at that and stop short of "ranking" him, or comparing him to other greats.
Bottom line is guys like MJ, Kobe, Kareem, Russell all have more rings than LeBron. Let's see where he goes from here...

 

[MigratingOsprey]

Can't that be said about Magic as well??

Of course. Obviously wasn't addressing the given that Magic improved those around him.

Just looking at the absurd comment that LeBron doesn't.

 

[82CardsGrad]

Of course. Obviously wasn't addressing the given that Magic improved those around him.

Just looking at the absurd comment that LeBron doesn't.

Got it...

 

[crisper57]

Damn. A giant sinkhole didn't open up and swallow both teams.

I hate how the national media his hanging all over Lebron's jock. His jump shot shows up for 1 game out of 7 and now he's better than MJ? Riiiiight.

 

[D-Dogg]

Uh, other than Jordan who the hell is better than him? And if you post Kobe then that would be one of the dumbest things that I have ever read.

Magic. Oscar. Wilt. Kareem. Oh, and yes, Kobe.

Oops, forgot Jerry West. Sorry, Logo.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Magic. Oscar. Wilt. Kareem. Oh, and yes, Kobe.

I'm curious as to your reasons why for Oscar/Kobe/Wilt.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

Facing elimination in games 6 & 7 all he did was play just under 95 minutes, shooting 23-49 (47%) including 6-15 from 3 and 17-20 from the stripe while pulling down 22 rebounds and having 15 assists to go with his 69 points

If you can't appreciate that, regardless of hype, I really don't know what to say.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

Yeah ... sorry Kobe just isn't it ..... the difference in their legacies is growing by the game

I'm a huge fan of the Big O and his game was a bit similar in approach and a little in form as both were oversized for their skillset and used it to impact all phases of the game .... really can't go generational though because while I think Oscars game can hold up - he wouldn't be the dominating force he was while LeBron is dominant in todays game and would have been dominant in that era as well

Wilt is always the enigma when it comes to where he ranks ....... just a dominant player, but never really had the highest level of success for his time ..... a lot of his life (both on and off the court) are kept in legend/myth territory and it's fuzzy to sort out just what was reality

Definitely one of the best players and most interesting personalities of all time .... where that leaves his legacy though is a bit unclear

For example with Wilt if you look at his 61-62 season where he averaged 50 points if you extract FTs then he made 1.01 points per FG attempt ... However, since the FTs will come on a FG attempt putting those points back in he averaged 1.275 per FG attempt.

Contrast that to 66-67 which was the first year he averaged under 30 ppg when he posted 24ppg he put up 1.43 points per FGA w/out FTs included and building the FT points back in that number moves to 1.7 ....... IMO a much more dominant season, the Sixers won 68 games and an NBA title (Wilt was 30 for that season fwiw)

Yet when people talk about Wilt they talk about how he put up 50ppg in a season ... yet the sixers won 49 games and lost in the eastern finals .... Wilt IMO was much better in that title year

Wilt was consistently amazing on the glass

Also, FWIW this year LeBron 1.21 points per FGA not including FT points ... putting those points back in he put up 1.50 points per FGA ....... there is this illusion out there that LeBron isn't dominant with the ball in his hands ... he clearly is, he's an efficient scorer who still takes a good number of shots .... When he shoots the ball he hurts you by putting up all time levels of points per shot and when he doesn't shoot he hurts you by averaging over 7 assists per game (with many of those coming on open 3s)

FWIW, including FT points Kobes career is in they 1.25-1.37 range ....... he's a great player, great drive, great competitor ... he just falls short of LeBron

 

[Cheesebeef]

Oops, forgot Jerry West. Sorry, Logo.

Oh, come on. Now this is just STUPID.

Why don't you just say that as a Laker fan you simply have no business answering the question because you have zero objectivity.

 

[D-Dogg]

I'm curious as to your reasons why for Oscar/Kobe/Wilt.

Oscar? Dude averaged triple doubles, he was unstoppable. He's a jerk though, and never gets much run in the conversation, but he put up the most consistently awesome numbers across the board. A title.

Wilt was the most dominating scoring machine of all time, and on top of that, led the league in assists one year because people berated him for being selfish. He could do anything he wanted out there, and no it wasn't because he played a bunch of slow white dudes. Put up records that will never be challenged. A title.

Forgot to add Russell too, rings and smart defense that shut down the most dominating machine in multiple finals. Big game clutch. 11 titles.

Kobe - tough as nails, plays through pain of all types. Multiple scoring records where the only names around him are Wilt and Jordan. 24 50+ point games (10 in one season). 81. Five 60+ point games. Top 4 on scoring charts for postseason and regular season careers. Put the US team on his back (including LeBron) to win 2008 gold. 5 titles. Durablilty in spades. This is what LeBron is chasing. If LeBron doesn't hold up as well as Kobe did, he won't sniff the career points lead. He will catch him if he can hold up, but I don't think he will. On the rings front, that's unlikely too.

Jerry West - effing amazing...voted MVP on the LOSING side of the Finals. Played point as a SG, and rocked that position. Destroyed teams, without the benefit of the three pointer.

 

[D-Dogg]

Oh, come on. Now this is just STUPID.

Why don't you just say that as a Laker fan you simply have no business answering the question because you have zero objectivity.

Jerry West was so effing good it hurts. If you can't admit that, I don't knw what is wrong with you.

Averaged 27 ppg in his career (same as lebron) in an era with no three point shot, and got to the line with more frequency (despite not having the physical build to rush the rim). Removing the 3 point from the two puts Jerry a point ahead of LeBron in average per game. Their assists per game stats are similar as well, in the 6.5 range. (Kobe 4.8, Magic 11.2 for reference).

If not for Bill Russell, Jerry would have had multiple rings. Russell was great.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Oscar? Dude averaged triple doubles, he was unstoppable. He's a jerk though, and never gets much run in the conversation, but he put up the most consistently awesome numbers across the board. A title.

Okay...but LeBron has put up the most consistently awesome numbers since Oscar and is a MUCH better defender and has won TWO titles. So, how is he below Oscar?

Wilt was the most dominating scoring machine of all time, and on top of that, led the league in assists one year because people berated him for being selfish. He could do anything he wanted out there, and no it wasn't because he played a bunch of slow white dudes. Put up records that will never be challenged. A title.

Isn't LeBron pretty much doing the same thing? Two titles. Leads the league in shooting, is a constant triple double threat, dominant defender. Two titles.

Forgot to add Russell too, rings and smart defense that shut down the most dominating machine in multiple finals. Big game clutch. 11 titles.

this I've got no issue with.

Kobe - tough as nails, plays through pain of all types. Multiple scoring records where the only names around him are Wilt and Jordan. 24 50+ point games (10 in one season). 81. Five 60+ point games. Top 4 on scoring charts for postseason and regular season careers. Put the US team on his back (including LeBron) to win 2008 gold. 5 titles. Durablilty in spades. This is what LeBron is chasing. If LeBron doesn't hold up as well as Kobe did, he won't sniff the career points lead. He will catch him if he can hold up, but I don't think he will. On the rings front, that's unlikely too.

So...basically because Kobe's an incredible scorer and durable he's better? Defense, passing, rebounding, actual SHOOTING PERCENTAGE, and being a better teammate don't compare to...scoring...and VOLUME scoring at that?

And not sure you can really use the rings argument to say Kobe's better, when apparently the rings argument doesn't matter a lick when saying West/Oscar were better then LeBron.

Jerry West - effing amazing...voted MVP on the LOSING side of the Finals. Played point as a SG, and rocked that position. Destroyed teams, without the benefit of the three pointer.

I just don't see any universe where ANYONE who's not you even tries to make this argument. LeBron averages more points, scores more efficiently, dishes as many assists, rebounds better, plays the best defense in the league and won more titles.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Jerry West was so effing good it hurts. If you can't admit that, I don't knw what is wrong with you.

note, I'm not saying he wasn't great. I could see where you'd want to change my argument because your argument is ridiculous, but I never said West wasn't awesome. I just said that saying he's better then LeBron is laughable.

Averaged 27 ppg in his career (same as lebron) in an era with no three point shot, and got to the line with more frequency (despite not having the physical build to rush the rim). Removing the 3 point from the two puts Jerry a point ahead of LeBron in average per game. Their assists per game stats are similar as well, in the 6.5 range. (Kobe 4.8, Magic 11.2 for reference).

is offense all that matters to you? Should we just completely ignore that LeBron is RIDICULOUSLY superior in both defense and rebounding? Could Jerry West defend 1-4? Did Jerry West average 7 boards per game?

If not for Bill Russell, Jerry would have had multiple rings. Russell was great.

and if LeBron had started his career with someone like Shaq rather then in that hovel hole of Cleveland, he'd probably be on ring 6 by now. But you can't argue "if not". you can only argue "what did".

unless you want to open up that can of worms. I don't think you do though as it would probably instantly vault LeBron over Kobe who got the benefit of coming right in to play with Shaq and be coached by the greatest coach of all time. I won't make that argument because it's stupid and the reason why I still think LeBron needs to win at least two more titles to vaunt him over Kobe.

 

[D-Dogg]

Facing elimination in games 6 & 7 all he did was play just under 95 minutes, shooting 23-49 (47%) including 6-15 from 3 and 17-20 from the stripe while pulling down 22 rebounds and having 15 assists to go with his 69 points

If you can't appreciate that, regardless of hype, I really don't know what to say.

It was a great performance, no doubt. But it leads to this idea that he's better than Jordan, when he's got a LONG, LONG way to go for that. He's still not accomplished as much as the current leader in the chasing Jordan game, which is Kobe. He's not accomplished what Magic has done (who is the one guy that can sit in the Jordan vs ? argument realistically. The hype machine is in full effect (not that it ever stopped, I mean "heat index" on ESPN for the whole season?) and it sours many people.

LeBron is a much better player than he once was, but the hype is more incredible than the player.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Oscar? He of one championship, and almost universally hated by teammates? Nice try, no chance.

Magic? Please...Magic was a great player, but outside of maybe passing, please name one thing Magic did better than Lebron.

(http://www.complex.com/sports/2013/...first-decade-in-the-league-rank/magic-johnson)

Kobe? We know what Kobe does without transcendent teammates. (Hint- not much) Unless he has a catastrophic injury, no way Lebron doesn't end up higher in the pecking order.

Jerry West? Would love to see him in the modern NBA, impossible to compare guys like him and Russell to the current beasts. Wilt, maybe, because he had the freakish stature, but hard to see a guy like West being nearly as good.

(Cue Lakers fans drinking kool-aid, making ridiculous arguments about former Lakers)

 

[AzStevenCal]

For a moment in time, Lebron may be the greatest ever but for a career, he still has quite a ways to go. He was tremendous at times in this series (and last year's run) but he's also fallen flat on his face more than most of the great players whose names are being tossed around. If Lebron retired today, I wouldn't even have him in the conversation for top 10 all time. If he has another 5 or 6 years at his current level, I think he'd have to be right there with MJ, Wilt, Kareem, Magic and Russell - the only other players that I believe deserve consideration for greatest ever. For me, right now, MJ still reigns supreme.

Steve

 

[Cheesebeef]

It was a great performance, no doubt. But it leads to this idea that he's better than Jordan, when he's got a LONG, LONG way to go for that. He's still not accomplished as much as the current leader in the chasing Jordan game, which is Kobe. He's not accomplished what Magic has done (who is the one guy that can sit in the Jordan vs ? argument realistically. The hype machine is in full effect (not that it ever stopped, I mean "heat index" on ESPN for the whole season?) and it sours many people.

LeBron is a much better player than he once was, but the hype is more incredible than the player.

does the above imply that Kobe is the 2nd best player in the game? If there's ANY hype machine that's out of control it's that Kobe, because he has 5 rings, is "chasing" Jordan.

Kobe was very lucky to come in to a GREAT situation and was DEFINITELY a HUGE part of the 3 peat teams, but since 2002, int he proceeding 12 years, Kobe's gone 2-10 winning rings, has missed the playoffs, has gotten his ass KICKED in the first round twice and lost in HUMILIATING fashion in close-out games in 2003, 2004, was no 2005 as he missed the playoffs, 2006 the quit game, 2007 losing by 20 in the first round, losing by 40 in the Finals in 2008, winning titles the next two years, only to go back to being embarassed in the playoffs the next three seasons.

if there's a hype machine, it's the one that compares Kobe's legacy to Jordan's.

I still put Kobe ahead of LeBron, but for my money, he's still behind Magic, Duncan and Russel. Probably number 5 all-time, but that's I don't see how he moves up unless he rings again.

 

[D-Dogg]

Okay...but LeBron has put up the most consistently awesome numbers since Oscar and is a MUCH better defender and has won TWO titles. So, how is he below Oscar?

His numbers aren't Oscar numbers. Sorry.
Wiki: Robertson was the first player to average more than 10 assists per game, doing so at a time when the criteria for assists were more stringent than today. Furthermore, Robertson is the only guard in NBA history to ever average more than 10 rebounds per game, doing so three times.

O's scoring average (no three pointer) is right at LeBrons. O's first five seasons taken together averaged a triple double...shocking. He actually averaged a triple double once, and was tenths of points away from doing it 4 more times. 118 triple doubles in his career, won't be touched.

Isn't LeBron pretty much doing the same thing? Two titles. Leads the league in shooting, is a constant triple double threat, dominant defender. Two titles.

No, he's not. Sorry. Jeez man. LeBron is not doing remotely what Wilt did. Kobe's 50 point games are something wild, then you realize wilt averaged 50 points in a season. The ultimate weapon.

So...basically because Kobe's an incredible scorer and durable he's better? Defense, passing, rebounding, actual SHOOTING PERCENTAGE, and being a better teammate don't compare to...scoring...and VOLUME scoring at that?

For all the hype of the passing machine that Lebron is and the selfish mefirst player Kobe is, Lebron averages 6.9 and Kobe average 4.8. Not bad for the volume shooter. Shooting percentage? LeBron makes his shots at the rim, Kobe's an outside shooter. Big deal. BTW, oscar's assist percentage was 9.5.

And not sure you can really use the rings argument to say Kobe's better, when apparently the rings argument doesn't matter a lick when saying West/Oscar were better then LeBron.

Rings are a part of the package. The examples are combos of people who have rings and massive stats. Rings aren't the be-all, or we'd all bow down to Russell and never talk about it.

I just don't see any universe where ANYONE who's not you even tries to make this argument. LeBron averages more points, scores more efficiently, dishes as many assists, rebounds better, plays the best defense in the league and won more titles.

Why are you so excited about a freaking forward rebounding more than a guard? You get so amped about that. And as I said, Lebron doesn't average more points when you normalize for the three pointer. He's a full point less.

Lebron is a very good defender. That's a very subjective measurement, though.


On top of this, we are talking about LeBron in his prime. These guys (sans Kobe) have established numbers that take into account their dropoff. Are we going to see LeBron keep at a torrid pace, or will he tail off? When he's 34 will he be in the hunt for scoring leader? Maybe, maybe not. This is all conjecture, and trying to compare players across eras is futile. LeBron is in the conversation, but doing a "this guy is better than that guy" is very difficult because every one of these players is immensely good at something specific that makes them great.

And I'll still take Magic over any of them.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

If Lebron retired today, I wouldn't even have him in the conversation for top 10 all time.

I can't buy that POV at all ... guy has played in 4 NBA finals winning 2 (2x MVP) .... 3x NBA MVP ... 5x all defensive 1st team ... 7x all nba 1st team (2x all nba 2nd team)

He's currently 37th in all time point, 46th in all time assists, 61st in career steals and is top 100 in defensive rebounding (not far off in total rebounding)

Using the basketball reference player efficiency ranking he's 2nd all time

All of this at 28 years old ........ if he was in a plane crash tommorrow he'd be top 10 to ever play .... similar to how Gayle Sayers was one of the best RBs of all time

What he's done so far clearly has him in the top 10 of all time .... it's just a matter of where he lands in that group

IMO, it's hard to really slot them too much at the top because of era, position, stlye ... but he's in the room and about to take a seat at the table

 

[D-Dogg]

Oscar? He of one championship, and almost universally hated by teammates? Nice try, no chance.

Better player, end of story.

Magic? Please...Magic was a great player, but outside of maybe passing, please name one thing Magic did better than Lebron.

Only guy legitimately in the conversation with Jordan as GOAT. Please. Deny Magic at your own risk of looking foolish.

Kobe? We know what Kobe does without transcendent teammates. (Hint- not much) Unless he has a catastrophic injury, no way Lebron doesn't end up higher in the pecking order.

Trancendant teammates? You mean Shaq, right? That's the only megastar. Are you going to pop out Pau Gasol? The guy who has been swept in every playoff series he's ever been in without Kobe? Bosh + Wade trumps any Lamar Odumb and Pau argument, ever, and then pop in deadly three point shooters like Ray Allen and Mike Miller. Please bury the "kobe has better teammates" garbage. That was valid in the Cleveland days.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I can't buy that POV at all ... guy has played in 4 NBA finals winning 2 (2x MVP) .... 3x NBA MVP ... 5x all defensive 1st team ... 7x all nba 1st team (2x all nba 2nd team)

He's currently 37th in all time point, 46th in all time assists, 61st in career steals and is top 100 in defensive rebounding (not far off in total rebounding)

Using the basketball reference player efficiency ranking he's 2nd all time

All of this at 28 years old ........ if he was in a plane crash tommorrow he'd be top 10 to ever play .... similar to how Gayle Sayers was one of the best RBs of all time

What he's done so far clearly has him in the top 10 of all time .... it's just a matter of where he lands in that group

IMO, it's hard to really slot them too much at the top because of era, position, stlye ... but he's in the room and about to take a seat at the table

As I said, there's a difference between moment in time and career. AFAIC, Lebron's career trails that of Karl Malone, MJ, Magic, Oscar, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Tim Duncan, Shaq and Russell. I think he's just about passed Jerry West and Larry Bird so, no, I wouldn't even have him in the top 10. He's not too far out of it and it's a sure bet he'll get there.

Steve

 

[D-Dogg]

does the above imply that Kobe is the 2nd best player in the game?

No.


Magic is my #1, Jordan #2. And that's arbitrary because IMO you can't really compare the two of them, too stylistically different. There's no numbers for me after that, but Kobe, Oscar, Wilt, Duncan, Russell, Kareem, LeBron, West and some others are all jumbled up in there. I think only Magic and Jordan have clear separation.

And Kobe, Duncan and LeBron are the only ones who can make any new noise. LeBron just spoiled Tim's chance, IMO. Kobe's achilles may have fixed him as well (though I won't count him out, and it would add to his story to come back strong from that at the old age he's at now...coming off of one of his best seasons in his career). LeBron has the largest opportunity to move out of the pack, but there's a lot of moving to do.

 

[D-Dogg]

As I said, there's a difference between moment in time and career. AFAIC, Lebron's career trails that of Karl Malone, MJ, Magic, Oscar, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Tim Duncan, Shaq and Russell. I think he's just about passed Jerry West and Larry Bird so, no, I wouldn't even have him in the top 10. He's not too far out of it and it's a sure bet he'll get there.

Steve

Two other names I neglected. Hakeem was sick, but what was most shocking about him was how FAST he went to crap. FAST.

Shaq kills me...he could have been the GOAT, but he was lazy. I have tortured feelings about Shaq. For a stretch, nobody could stop him and he was hacked to pieces because you had to let fouls go against him in order to be fair and not foul out the other team. But then he was lazy, got out of shape for fun, sat out with crap injuries, etc. The "heal on team time" mentality was so frustrating. He easily could have surpassed everyone on this list if he had the drive, desire and work ethic of a Jordan, Kobe, Jerry West etc.

 

[MigratingOsprey]

Another neat stat about how terrible LeBron is in clutch situations

If you look at all his playoff games where in the 4th quarter or OT where there was a shot to tie or take the lead his stat line looks like this

13/26 (50%) ... not bad

as a reference point, the accepted best closer in the nba has this for his career

10/37 (27%)

so I know what you're thinking ... sure the percentage is worse, but at least he's willing to take the shot, right.

Well, as time goes on that has evened out as well ... since 2006 when LeBron took his 1st shot in such a position the other player is 6-21 in such situations

 

[devilalum]

The only real "flaw" in LBJ's game is that he is not a great shooter. By flaw I mean aspect of his game that is not HOF quality. I don't think his shot will ever be as smooth as MJ or Kobe but he possesses many physical attributes that say Kobe never had.