Game 7 NBA Finals Spurs at Miami

[Gee!]

A few years ago Magic Johnson said Michael Jordan is the hands down best player ever. Last night after the Heat won, Magic said only one player has the ability to take the top player of all time away. And he said Lebron was the only player that had a chance. A Laker great for ya Donald..

 

[Bufalay]

It was a great performance, no doubt. But it leads to this idea that he's better than Jordan, when he's got a LONG, LONG way to go for that. He's still not accomplished as much as the current leader in the chasing Jordan game, which is Kobe.

Good point. When Lebron matches Kobe's 1 MVP, then we can have this discussion.

 

[D-Dogg]

A few years ago Magic Johnson said Michael Jordan is the hands down best player ever. Last night after the Heat won, Magic said only one player has the ability to take the top player of all time away. And he said Lebron was the only player that had a chance. A Laker great for ya Donald..

Magic says a lot of things. He makes little sense most of the time. He is a great BASKETBALL player, and that's pretty much where the line is drawn.

 

[D-Dogg]

Good point. When Lebron matches Kobe's 1 MVP, then we can have this discussion.

When MVPs mean something, we can have the discussion. Media's Various Promotion awards are worthless. Let's talk about All Star game stats!

 

[Gee!]

Magic says a lot of things. He makes little sense most of the time. He is a great BASKETBALL player, and that's pretty much where the line is drawn.

Figured you'd just blow that off..

 

[Cheesebeef]

No.


Magic is my #1, Jordan #2. And that's arbitrary because IMO you can't really compare the two of them, too stylistically different. There's no numbers for me after that, but Kobe, Oscar, Wilt, Duncan, Russell, Kareem, LeBron, West and some others are all jumbled up in there. I think only Magic and Jordan have clear separation.

And Kobe, Duncan and LeBron are the only ones who can make any new noise. LeBron just spoiled Tim's chance, IMO. Kobe's achilles may have fixed him as well (though I won't count him out, and it would add to his story to come back strong from that at the old age he's at now...coming off of one of his best seasons in his career). LeBron has the largest opportunity to move out of the pack, but there's a lot of moving to do.

while I completely disagree with Magic #1, Michael number 2, if you had just the rest of this, i'd agree with you. but as opposed to saying LeBron's in that mix with all the guys above, you clearly have listed him BELOW all of them.

 

[Gee!]

I love watching LBJ play, I do.. but an added bonus is watching laker fans have meltdowns when discussing LBJ.. so enjoyable.. thanks Donald

 

[Bufalay]

Only the biggest Lakers homers believe that Kobe is better than Lebron.

Check out some advanced stats. Lebron is second all time in career PER slightly trailing Jordan. Kobe is 20th.

Lebron's average win shares per season are 15.3. Jordan's and Kobe's were 14.3 and 10.2, respectively.

While the defensive win shares stat tends to be dominated by big men, Lebron again has a higher defensive win shares per season than Jordan (slightly) and Kobe (~65% higher).

It seems obvious that comparing Lebron to Jordan is far from ridiculous at this point and that Kobe is not at the same level as these guys.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I love watching LBJ play, I do.. but an added bonus is watching laker fans have meltdowns when discussing LBJ.. so enjoyable.. thanks Donald

agreed. it's like if you didn't play on the Lakers, there's no possibility that you could be the greatest player of all time.

the fact that Laker fans still Magic as better then Jordan is proof of that.

 

[Bufalay]

When MVPs mean something, we can have the discussion. Media's Various Promotion awards are worthless. Let's talk about All Star game stats!

I agree to a certain degree. Saying that Nash is better than Kobe because he has more MVP's is silly. However, Lebron, without question, has been the best player in the league for the past 5 years. Kobe never had such a stretch.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Better player, end of story.



Only guy legitimately in the conversation with Jordan as GOAT. Please. Deny Magic at your own risk of looking foolish.



Trancendant teammates? You mean Shaq, right? That's the only megastar. Are you going to pop out Pau Gasol? The guy who has been swept in every playoff series he's ever been in without Kobe? Bosh + Wade trumps any Lamar Odumb and Pau argument, ever, and then pop in deadly three point shooters like Ray Allen and Mike Miller. Please bury the "kobe has better teammates" garbage. That was valid in the Cleveland days.

O'fer Bosh and Broken Down Wade this last two years are better then Lamar, Pau AND Bynum and Artest/Ariza? Give me a freaking break. Maybe in year 1 of the Heat's big three, but Wade hasn't been even close to the same player since and Pau was regularly getting ALL-NBA team honors during their run and Bynum was 2nd Team All-NBA one of those years that Kobe and crew got embarassed in the second round. pretty sure Odom was 6th man of the year that year as well.

Those two Laker teams that won back to back titles had OODLES of talent...IN THEIR PRIME. Not to mention the best HC of all time.

 

[PDXChris]

If you gave LeBron Kareem, Byron Scott and James Worthy, that team probably wins 70 games every year and might never loses a title.

I don't know, Kareem is in his 60's, no one have seen Worthy in years, but Scott might still be able to his a jumper. Rambis looks like he could throw a few elbows too. I am not sure A.C would be intersted since I am sure he is still looking for a woman to take his flower.

All kidding aside, would it be showtime in today's NBA? If so, I would disagree, but if you put LeBron on that team back then, then you are right. Don't get me wrong, LeBron is top 5 all time right now and better than Magic, but I would still want to see the team.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

O'fer Bosh and Broken Down Wade this last two years are better then Lamar, Pau AND Bynum and Artest/Ariza? Give me a freaking break. Maybe in year 1 of the Heat's big three, but Wade hasn't been even close to the same player since and Pau was regularly getting ALL-NBA team honors during their run and Bynum was 2nd Team All-NBA one of those years that Kobe and crew got embarassed in the second round. pretty sure Odom was 6th man of the year that year as well.

Those two Laker teams that won back to back titles had OODLES of talent...IN THEIR PRIME. Not to mention the best HC of all time.

Perfectly stated. To claim that he "only" had Shaq shows a lack of objectivity that makes this discussion hardly worth having.

Even more laughable is the assertion that comparing him to Oscar Robertson isn't even worth discussing. Lebron already has twice as many championships, and 3 more league MVP trophies. (which suddenly means nothing according to the Donald)

Bottom line, I'd love to look up this thread 10 years from now, and see where Lebron fits historically compared to Kobe/Robertson. I think most of us have enough foresight to see that it won't be much of a discussion.

 

[D-Dogg]

while I completely disagree with Magic #1, Michael number 2, if you had just the rest of this, i'd agree with you. but as opposed to saying LeBron's in that mix with all the guys above, you clearly have listed him BELOW all of them.

Not really. I don't know where I'd slot him now, same as with Kobe. I can't say he's better than those other guys now because he's incomplete. He's better than them in some ways, not in others. My arguments on "who is better than him" aren't really "Jerry West is better forever" or "Oscar is better forever" but more that you can't say that LeBron is clearly better than any of them at this stage because it doesn't bear out yet.

He may end up clearly above those guys, in the end. Right now he's in the room, looking up at their accomplishments. If he never wins another ring, or his stats tail off with his athleticism waning, he won't be jumping clearly in front of them.

 

[D-Dogg]

O'fer Bosh and Broken Down Wade this last two years are better then Lamar, Pau AND Bynum and Artest/Ariza? Give me a freaking break. Maybe in year 1 of the Heat's big three, but Wade hasn't been even close to the same player since and Pau was regularly getting ALL-NBA team honors during their run and Bynum was 2nd Team All-NBA one of those years that Kobe and crew got embarassed in the second round. pretty sure Odom was 6th man of the year that year as well.

Those two Laker teams that won back to back titles had OODLES of talent...IN THEIR PRIME. Not to mention the best HC of all time.

The only correct argument you made there was the coaching argument.

Bynum? Dude was non-existent in the playoffs, and would follow a 20 rebound game with a 4 rebound game. First title, hurt and averaged 6.3 points and 3.7 boards. Second title, hurt some more and averaged 8.6 points and 6.9 boards. Not much of a threat. Artest in his prime? Please. 11 ppg, 4 boards and 2 assists? He hit a couple of huge clutch shots (the biggest of them with the entire crowd including Phil screaming "NO!!") Ariza? He's done what since then? Got a starting job, looked ok for a year then fell away to obscurity.

Kobe, Pau and Lamar. The Big Three. LOL. That's why ESPN had a Lakers Tracking Feature on their site all year..oh wait, no they didn't.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Perfectly stated. To claim that he "only" had Shaq shows a lack of objectivity that makes this discussion hardly worth having.

Kobe wasn't the best player on his own team when he won with Shaq.

I still think all the big men get overlooked when all the GOAT discussion goes on. Russell, Wilt, Hakeem, Duncan, Kareem, and even Shaq should be in the discussion.

 

[D-Dogg]

Even more laughable is the assertion that comparing him to Oscar Robertson isn't even worth discussing. Lebron already has twice as many championships, and 3 more league MVP trophies. (which suddenly means nothing according to the Donald)

That's just silly. Oscar was the original stat machine. Averaged as many points, more rebounds and more assists. MVPs which are stupid, yes...he was the only guy in the 60s not named Wilt or Russell to win one. Yeah, those two guys.

Oscar is so overwhelmingly overlooked it is pathetic. He was a jerk, but come on. Excluding the guy from greatest players discussions is criminal.

This is simpy untouchable:

Year Pts/Reb/Assists

1960-61 30.5/10.1/9.7
1961-62 30.8/12.5/11.4
1962-63 28.3/10.4/9.5
1963-64 31.4/9.9/11.0
1964-65 30.4/9.0/11.5

Oh, he was in another era and would be beat by today's athletes? Whatever. A basketball player is a player. Comparing eras is the hard thing...given today's training, nutrition, exercise regimens, film study, coaching, travel, etc, these athletes coming up now would be just as dominant as they were then, because they were highly skilled players. Trying to insert other players into current eras, or these players into those eras to compare is a fruitless effort.

 

[D-Dogg]

To claim that he "only" had Shaq shows a lack of objectivity that makes this discussion hardly worth having.

Nobody said he only had Shaq. Someone said he had transcendental teammates. Shaq is the only person that fits that bill. Sorry, Pau Gasol, Odom and Bynum aren't remotely "trancendental."

 

[D-Dogg]

Figured you'd just blow that off..

You can go discuss it on Lakersground if you are interested. They've already realized that's not actually true.

Magic ACTUALLY said was "only thing left for Lebron is where is he gonna finish? Can he become the greatest that's ever played? Can he get up to that Michael Jordan level, pass Kobe Bryant, those type of guys."

You can go watch it if you want.




Regardless, Magic is a horrible analyst and I wouldn't be surprised if he had said that. However, he didn't, and instead still put Kobe in front of your boy. Magic's opinion, like mine and yours, means nothing really. Of course, he also said that Dwayne Wade is the second best player on the planet, so he's still talking foolish.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Nobody said he only had Shaq. Someone said he had transcendental teammates. Shaq is the only person that fits that bill. Sorry, Pau Gasol, Odom and Bynum aren't remotely "trancendental."

The word you're looking for is transcendent. Regardless, to say Kobe wasn't surrounded by wonderful talent/role players/coaching in every one of his championships is just a bizzare level of Kobe hagiography.

It's ridiculous to denigrate the contributions of guys like Bynum/Lllama/Odom et al, we all saw what happened when Kobe wasn't surrounded by other stars and spectacular role players. It wasn't pretty.

Kobe sure as hell never took a group of scrubs to the finals like Lebron did, and current Lebron is a completely different player.

Don't get me wrong, Kobe is an unbelievable talent and one of the greatest 2 guards of all time, but when all is said and done, I doubt there will be much of a debate as to who the superior player is between he and Lebron.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

That's just silly. Oscar was the original stat machine. Averaged as many points, more rebounds and more assists. MVPs which are stupid, yes...he was the only guy in the 60s not named Wilt or Russell to win one. Yeah, those two guys.

Oscar is so overwhelmingly overlooked it is pathetic. He was a jerk, but come on. Excluding the guy from greatest players discussions is criminal.

This is simpy untouchable:

Year Pts/Reb/Assists

1960-61 30.5/10.1/9.7
1961-62 30.8/12.5/11.4
1962-63 28.3/10.4/9.5
1963-64 31.4/9.9/11.0
1964-65 30.4/9.0/11.5

Oh, he was in another era and would be beat by today's athletes? Whatever. A basketball player is a player. Comparing eras is the hard thing...given today's training, nutrition, exercise regimens, film study, coaching, travel, etc, these athletes coming up now would be just as dominant as they were then, because they were highly skilled players. Trying to insert other players into current eras, or these players into those eras to compare is a fruitless effort.

Now you're going to turn this into a stat comparison? By that logic, I guess we should add Kareem/Malone into the discussion. (Ignore the fact that if you brought up either as the GOAT among serious NBA fans, they'd laugh at you)

Did Robertson put up amazing stats? Sure. Did it lead to championships, EVEN WHEN HE PLAYED WITH KAREEM? Negative.

Lebron > Oscar

 

[Cheesebeef]

Not really. I don't know where I'd slot him now, same as with Kobe. I can't say he's better than those other guys now because he's incomplete. He's better than them in some ways, not in others. My arguments on "who is better than him" aren't really "Jerry West is better forever" or "Oscar is better forever" but more that you can't say that LeBron is clearly better than any of them at this stage because it doesn't bear out yet.

He may end up clearly above those guys, in the end. Right now he's in the room, looking up at their accomplishments. If he never wins another ring, or his stats tail off with his athleticism waning, he won't be jumping clearly in front of them.

what accomplishment is he looking up at with Oscar/West? He's got better stats or stats approximate to them, more MVPs, more Finals MVPs and MORE TITLES.

He's already more accomplished then either of them...and he's likely just going to be ADDING to that tally of all of kinds of trophies.

Put him behind Jordan, Magic, Kareem, Russell and even Kobe/Duncan right now, but again, he's already accomplished more then Oscar and West have in the entirety of their careers and he's just going to add to it.

I mean...this is like saying when Michael retired the first time, he was looking up at everyone else...when it was pretty much acknowledged at that point that he was retiring as the best of all time. He only further cemented himself as absolute untouchable God amongst men when he returned.

 

[Gee!]

At age 28..

 

[Gee!]

You can go discuss it on Lakersground if you are interested. They've already realized that's not actually true.

Magic ACTUALLY said was "only thing left for Lebron is where is he gonna finish? Can he become the greatest that's ever played? Can he get up to that Michael Jordan level, pass Kobe Bryant, those type of guys."

You can go watch it

This isn't what I saw.. I saw the one after the game where he was talking to LeBron directly..

 

[D-Dogg]

This isn't what I saw.. I saw the one after the game where he was talking to LeBron directly..

Like it matters. Magic is a dork as an analyst. Only a bit better than he was on the Magic Hour.