Game 7 NBA Finals Spurs at Miami

[D-Dogg]

The word you're looking for is transcendent.

Nope. Both work for the concept. Both definitions involve superiority and surpassing normalcy.

transcendental: Surpassing all others; superior.

You're wrong on the rest, as well. Nice try though. Glad you know so much about the Lakers.

 

[D-Dogg]

what accomplishment is he looking up at with Oscar/West? He's got better stats or stats approximate to them, more MVPs, more Finals MVPs and MORE TITLES.

He doesn't have better stats. His career isn't over, either. His stats may grow, or may fall. Oscar is a case in point, where his last four years ate away his stats, yet he STILL has better stats. Trip dub for a year is untouchable. Doing that with 30 PPG? No effing way, it's unbelievable. Averaging a triple double over his first 5 seasons at 30ppg?? Please. Accomplish that, LeBron.

Why both West and Oscar didn't have more MVPS, Finals MVPs and Titles is due to one guy, Bill Russell, who gobbled them up. They failed against one of the best of all time, with a great team. Jordan, Kobe, LeBron, Shaq, Duncan, etc all did not have to deal with that.

You had Jerry West, Oscar, Wilt, Russell all squaring off in the playoffs multiple times over a decade. That's just ridiculous. Saying someone who won two titles in this era is better than them because they only got one title battling Russell every year is myopic. If anything, it continues to elevate Russell. These basketball beasts couldn't get by him.

Kobe & Shaq went up against Duncan multiple times, and bent over weak eastern teams. Lebron went up against Duncan twice, 1-1. Kobe went up against KG and crew, went 1-1. Jordan went up 1-0 against Magic, then dealt with Hakeem and Karl Malone. Magic had Samson & Malone, Dr. J twice, Bird Twice, Jordan once, also Isiah. Russell fended off Oscar, Wilt and Jerry to the tune of 11 titles. That's impressive, and it doesn't make Oscar, Wilt & Jerry's accomplishments weak in comparison to LeBron's.

 

[ASUCHRIS]

Nope. Both work for the concept. Both definitions involve superiority and surpassing normalcy.

transcendental: Surpassing all others; superior.

You're wrong on the rest, as well. Nice try though. Glad you know so much about the Lakers.

We can quibble about world choice, but the bottom line is in common usage, when talking about superior talent, people use transcendent, not transcendental.

And you can continue to say I'm wrong based on...oh yeah, a bunch of nothing. At least you can fall back on the argument that you have objectivity in this discussion. Oh wait...

 

[D-Dogg]

Blah blah blather. You think that Kareem shouldn't be in the discussion. I never even liked Cap, but he's definitely in the discussion.

 

[Mainstreet]

Blah blah blather. You think that Kareem shouldn't be in the discussion. I never even liked Cap, but he's definitely in the discussion.

I've watched all the great centers since Wilt. I've been impressed by all the names that have mentioned but give me Kareem in his prime over any other player as the best. Only Kareem left me in awe in his prime. I think too many fans only remember him past his prime.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Blah blah blather. You think that Kareem shouldn't be in the discussion. I never even liked Cap, but he's definitely in the discussion.

Nobody liked him and that has a lot to do with why he gets left out of the conversation. Look up aloof, you'll find his picture, and that's one character trait that the media just can't abide. He wasn't as dominant as Wilt but IMO he was the greatest player ever until MJ passed him by. Even still, if anyone other than Michael deserves to be in the conversation it's Kareem.

Steve

 

[ASUCHRIS]

At age 28..

Ha, perfect.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Ha, perfect.

But is it? I think if you asked everyone on this board who was the better player/who had the better career through his 28th birthday that just about every one of us would put Lebron on top (excepting perhaps Donald and one or two Bulls fans).

Steve

 

[SirStefan32]

I've watched all the great centers since Wilt. I've been impressed by all the names that have mentioned but give me Kareem in his prime over any other player as the best. Only Kareem left me in awe in his prime. I think too many fans only remember him past his prime.

I was just a little kid when Kareem was still around, but I remember watching in awe of how unstoppable he was. It didn't matter who you were and how good you were. There was nothing you could do to stop him.

 

[SirStefan32]

But is it? I think if you asked everyone on this board who was the better player/who had the better career through his 28th birthday that just about every one of us would put Lebron on top (excepting perhaps Donald and one or two Bulls fans).

Steve

I am not so sure. Kobe played with Shaq, so he wasn't a clear number 1 option until Shaq got traded. LeBron has been an undisputed number one option his entire career. To be fair, one can make an argument that playing alongside Shaq was easier. I don't know which argument wins, and I do think LeBron, at this point, is a better player, but I don't think it's as simple as listing their stats.

 

[BC867]

I am not so sure. Kobe played with Shaq, so he wasn't a clear number 1 option until Shaq got traded. LeBron has been an undisputed number one option his entire career. To be fair, one can make an argument that playing alongside Shaq was easier. I don't know which argument wins, and I do think LeBron, at this point, is a better player, but I don't think it's as simple as listing their stats.

Who was better, Madame Curie or Thomas Edison? It's comparing apples to oranges.

Same with comparing Forwards to Centers. Or to Guards. That's why this debate has dragged on. There is no logical answer.

 

[D-Dogg]

Who was better, Madame Curie or Thomas Edison? It's comparing apples to oranges.

Same with comparing Forwards to Centers. Or to Guards. That's why this debate has dragged on. There is no logical answer.

Nice analogy. Comparing guards to centers is very difficult, especially. It's even tough comparing points to shooting guards...the skillsets are so different, the roles are so different, success factors are so different. I personally am partial to point guards above all else. Probably why I defend Oscar so much and have Magic over Jordan (Laker love plays a role, but I defer to PGs). I usually discount Cap, and Shaq too, and have never really liked center play that much in the first place.

 

[BC867]

Nice analogy. Comparing guards to centers is very difficult, especially. It's even tough comparing points to shooting guards...the skillsets are so different, the roles are so different, success factors are so different. I personally am partial to point guards above all else. Probably why I defend Oscar so much and have Magic over Jordan (Laker love plays a role, but I defer to PGs). I usually discount Cap, and Shaq too, and have never really liked center play that much in the first place.

I know that playing Power Forwards at Center has increased over the years.

But I have always felt that championship calibre Centers and Point Guards are the two most difficult, and crucial, positions to fill.

Then you fill in 2 Wings and a Power Forward. They are important, but more plentiful.

As I posted previously, watching LeBron playing true Point on offense (not just having the passes go through him) convinced me that he will, in time, go down as the greatest Power Forward of all-time. Duncan, Malone, even Elgin Baylor, weren't as versatile as LBJ is already.

 

[TJ]

At age 28..

Yup....game over.

 

[D-Dogg]

I know that playing Power Forwards at Center has increased over the years.

But I have always felt that championship calibre Centers and Point Guards are the two most difficult, and crucial, positions to fill.

Completely agree. And when you find one of those talents at that position, you are set and can build a real team around them, either direction.

As I posted previously, watching LeBron playing true Point on offense (not just having the passes go through him) convinced me that he will, in time, go down as the greatest Power Forward of all-time. Duncan, Malone, even Elgin Baylor, weren't as versatile as LBJ is already.

I can not argue with that, even as much as I love Elgin Baylor (soooo underrated). Duncan is completely fundamental, but boring to watch (so damn solid though). As PF/SF go, LeBron is easily number 1, and Larry Bird is #2 in the SF category.

Jordan is #1 SG, Kobe #2. Magic #1 PG, Oscar #2, West #3, Isaiah #4.

Centers...no way...so much talent too closely aligned. Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem...very hard.

There have been some amazing players we've been fortunate to watch.

 

[slinslin]

bahahahaha West and Isaiah as the #3 and #4 PGs really is a joke.

Heck West and Oscar Robertson were not even PGs. Oscar Robertson was a guard/forward and West almost always a shooting guard.

And Isaiah has 0 arguments to be listed anywhere above Nash.

 

[slinslin]

He doesn't have better stats. His career isn't over, either. His stats may grow, or may fall. Oscar is a case in point, where his last four years ate away his stats, yet he STILL has better stats. Trip dub for a year is untouchable. Doing that with 30 PPG? No effing way, it's unbelievable. Averaging a triple double over his first 5 seasons at 30ppg?? Please. Accomplish that, LeBron.

Why both West and Oscar didn't have more MVPS, Finals MVPs and Titles is due to one guy, Bill Russell, who gobbled them up. They failed against one of the best of all time, with a great team. Jordan, Kobe, LeBron, Shaq, Duncan, etc all did not have to deal with that.

You had Jerry West, Oscar, Wilt, Russell all squaring off in the playoffs multiple times over a decade. That's just ridiculous. Saying someone who won two titles in this era is better than them because they only got one title battling Russell every year is myopic. If anything, it continues to elevate Russell. These basketball beasts couldn't get by him.

Kobe & Shaq went up against Duncan multiple times, and bent over weak eastern teams. Lebron went up against Duncan twice, 1-1. Kobe went up against KG and crew, went 1-1. Jordan went up 1-0 against Magic, then dealt with Hakeem and Karl Malone. Magic had Samson & Malone, Dr. J twice, Bird Twice, Jordan once, also Isiah. Russell fended off Oscar, Wilt and Jerry to the tune of 11 titles. That's impressive, and it doesn't make Oscar, Wilt & Jerry's accomplishments weak in comparison to LeBron's.

Please never again speak about stats, you are honestly clueless if you claim Oscar had better stats than Lebron.

In Oscars best year his team scored 123ppg ( that is 27ppg more as a team than the Cavs in Lebrons 30/8/7 year ) and gave up 121. There were only 9 teams in that league.

They did not keep pace stats back then but obviously his stats are INCREDIBLY OVERRATED.

 

[Mainstreet]

I was just a little kid when Kareem was still around, but I remember watching in awe of how unstoppable he was. It didn't matter who you were and how good you were. There was nothing you could do to stop him.

Also Kareem doesn't get enough credit on defense. He didn't have to be a shot blocker, although he got more than his share, he consistently made players alter their shots. This can be more devastating than blocking shots. And I'm not even getting into his ability to rebound. Also Kareem had the most grace of movement I have ever seen in a big man..

 

[elindholm]

Also Kareem had the most grace of movement I have ever seen in a big man..

More than Olajuwon?

 

[AzStevenCal]

More than Olajuwon?

I think so. Olajuwon had incredible footwork, best I've ever seen for a big man but Kareem looked like a really tall point guard out there.

Steve

 

[slinslin]

More than Olajuwon?

Yeah Olajuwon >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kareem in that regard...

I also think David Robinson was way more "graceful".

 

[AzStevenCal]

Yeah Olajuwon >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kareem in that regard...

I also think David Robinson was way more "graceful".

Yes, I'm sure statistically they both looked way more graceful than Kareem.

Steve

 

[Mainstreet]

Yeah Olajuwon >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kareem in that regard...

I also think David Robinson was way more "graceful".

Yes. Kareem was more graceful.

 

[Mainstreet]

More than Olajuwon?

I liked Olajuwon but Kareem was more graceful in his movement. I'm not getting into footwork.

 

[SirStefan32]

Yes, I'm sure statistically they both looked way more graceful than Kareem.

Steve

Only if you look at +/- advanced stats.