Game Thread: Suns vs. Hawks

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by sly fly
Everybody take a deep breath on the JJ thing.

Both camps are right and wrong.

He's as young as they come. Sorry, Cheese... but this has a lot to do with his development. The 2 guard position in the NBA could be the toughest position in sports (or at least right up there). It takes a true superstar to consistently put up huge numbers at that position. Asking JJ to do that every night is a bit much at this point in his career.

How can you not love the guy? He looks like he doesn't have a mean bone in his body. He's the perfect physical speciman for the 2 guard. And, he's still in his very early 20's. Physically, he's not that far away. And, considering there is still tons of experience yet to be tapped... I like his chances to become a real bitch in this league (if he isn't already). However...

JJ does need to become stronger upstairs. Too often will he let the game dictate his aggresiveness. He needs to play with a chip on his shoulder every minute he's out there. He's not a sniper, yet.

Hopefully, he'll develop that offensive swagger that many of the stars possess (Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Eddie Jones, Peja Stojakovic, etc). JJ is too gifted physically for this not to happen. It's just going to take some time with him.

No one is asking JJ to put up "huge" numbers - just consistent ones. As far as that offensive swagger - the great ones come into the league with it - I believe it's something you're born with - Pierce, Allen and Peja (maybe not Peja) had it - maybe it was because Ray and Pierce as SOPHOMORES in college were already amongst the best players in college and their confidence was boosted there - but they came into the league with swagger and their natural talent I believe dwafrs JJs. As far as EJ - I fear that is exactly what JJ will become as mentally soft shooting guard who when the game is on the line is no where to be found.

 

[sly fly]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
No one is asking JJ to put up "huge" numbers - just consistent ones. As far as that offensive swagger - the great ones come into the league with it - I believe it's something you're born with - Pierce, Allen and Peja (maybe not Peja) had it - maybe it was because Ray and Pierce as SOPHOMORES in college were already amongst the best players in college and their confidence was boosted there - but they came into the league with swagger and their natural talent I believe dwafrs JJs. As far as EJ - I fear that is exactly what JJ will become as mentally soft shooting guard who when the game is on the line is no where to be found.

The ironic thing about tonights game is that JJ did take the big shot (the 25 footer from the top of the key, with a man in his face). And, that ball had a chance.

"If" he makes that shot, this discussion is about how much JJ has progressed.

Yeah, we're playing "if" games here. But, that ball was just short. He didn't pull the string on it, either.

 

[hcsilla]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
As far as EJ - I fear that is exactly what JJ will become as mentally soft shooting guard who when the game is on the line is no where to be found.

Actually Eddie Jones does exactly that (versatility and good defense) what the doctor ordered for the Suns at the SG spot.
Joe Johnson doesn't need to be a super clutch-shooter. If he will become one it's fine but Suns already have one very good clutch-shooter and maybe another future one in Stoudemire.

 

[elindholm]

"If" he makes that shot, this discussion is about how much JJ has progressed.

That's true. I thought Johnson was fine today, in spite of the poor shooting, and it was reasonable for him to take that late shot. If you always go to your best "clutch" player, it makes it a lot easier for the defense -- just look at the sorry attempt Marbury got up at the very end. The Suns don't have a Jordan/Bryant type who can always get off a good shot no matter what the coverage is, so they're better off being less predictable in clutch situations. As far as Marion goes, well over half of his three-pointers come from the corner, and it's harder (and riskier) to work the ball there when time is short.

 

[Billythekid]

Very frustrating loss!

Not good enough. We should've handledt the hawks in our building with relative ease. This is a team game. As much as we want to point out individuals and whos the key to this, and who's the key to that... We need to start playing like a team. Team defense. We're getting abused and beaten but duds.... And team offense. There seems to be little continuity or flow to our game. Just very little spurts. That is a result of poor coaching IMO. Frank has to pull his finger out of his ass and get these guys as a solid unit!


Stop the teasing us and start playing the basketball we know you can play!

Just my .02 cents.

 

[Billythekid]

And also a product of last seasons success was closing out games well... we had luck on our side on more then one occassion. This season so far the ball is bouncing the other way. We've lost 3 of 4 close games that last season we probably would've pulled out.

Still. It's a marathon of a season, not a sprint. We need to respond we a big game.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
And to compare him to Manu who makes everyone around him better isn't really something that should even be mentioned.

Manu's Stats for the year:

15.9 points, 5.9 boards, 5.1 assists, 2.25 steals, .5 blocks, 35% fg, 5.8 fta, 35.9 mpg


JJ's stats this season:

12.8 points, 5.5 rebounds, 3.8 assists, 1 steal, .17 blocks, 36% fg, 2.7 fta, 36.7 mpg


However:

Manu: 26 years old entering his 8th year as a pro player. Is currently the #1 option on offense by FGA (13.0), #2 by common sense.

JJ: 22 years old entering his 3rd year as a pro player. Is currently the 4th option on offense by FGA (13.3 fga) and 4th by common sense.


My point is there is a comparison to be made. I am almost 100% sure that JJ will be a better pro, who makes his teammates better by the time he is Manu's current age.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Anyways, I have basically ran out of arguements on how JJ does not suck, and why he should be in the starting lineup.

This biggest difference from this year and last year when he lsot his job is his defense, and his ability to not let a poor shooting night affect his entire game.

At this point, the problem with inserting Penny in the starting lineup is he hasn't done anything to deserve it. The entire team knows he hasn't played well, so it would be demoting JJ, not promoting Penny.

That would be another blow to a player who may finally have a continuing confidence.



FJ did show once again why he shouldn't be head coach (or at least not in charge of lineups). There were to many other options besides Casey in teh 4th quarter. Even if he didn't want to go big with White, Zarko was already playing great, and is a much harder matchup.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Actually, instead of firing Frank they should just hire an assistant to run the offense.

Like how Eddie Jordan ran the show behind Byron Scott.

I mean Frank handles the media very well, is personable and can relate to his players. He is a good assistant to have. However, you cannot demote a head coach to an assistant, it just wouldn't work. And firing him will not go well with the players most likely (remember steph saying if Frank left he would to last year?). So instead bring in another assistant to run the Xs and Os. (BTW, isn't that what D'Antoni does right now? Maybe he is the one who blows, and Frank is just the idiot)

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
Manu's Stats for the year:

15.9 points, 5.9 boards, 5.1 assists, 2.25 steals, .5 blocks, 35% fg, 5.8 fta, 35.9 mpg


JJ's stats this season:

12.8 points, 5.5 rebounds, 3.8 assists, 1 steal, .17 blocks, 36% fg, 2.7 fta, 36.7 mpg


However:

Manu: 26 years old entering his 8th year as a pro player. Is currently the #1 option on offense by FGA (13.0), #2 by common sense.

JJ: 22 years old entering his 3rd year as a pro player. Is currently the 4th option on offense by FGA (13.3 fga) and 4th by common sense.


My point is there is a comparison to be made. I am almost 100% sure that JJ will be a better pro, who makes his teammates better by the time he is Manu's current age.

Manu's game has apparently been like this for years - hence he was able to come right into the league and be what he is - he has a natural ability that JJ hasn't shown yet and I'm not sure how you can be 100% confident that JJ will be able to get to that level - Ginobli has basketball smarts and passing skills that are special talents - things that aren't learned, but things players are born with. JJ's blessed with athleticism - but I have seen nothing in the way of basketball smarts or passing ability that has ever made me believe he could be the player that Ginobli is and will be - you forget to realize that Ginobli is going to get much better also - he was a bench player last year in his first NBA season - the guy is going to be a stud IMO - and he has already shown a knack for making huge shots - just as he did back in the Spanish league - the ability to takeand make clutch shots isn't something you can practice and attain - you either have that ability or you don't - I believe anyway.

 

[Joe Mama]

I actually think Joe Johnson would be best as a sixth man, but I don't think Penny Hardaway would be any better as a starter. What this team really needs is a consistently good shooter who is a decent defender. Unfortunately those players are valuable and hard to come by.

IMO the blame tonight goes to Frank Johnson. His small ball in the fourth quarter lead to too many open shots and second chance points for the Hawks. Sooner or later the players are going to get tired of FJ blaming their lack of execution, passing, and effort for these losses.

Joe Mama

 

[schutd]

Originally posted by Chaplin
This sounds like someone just complaining for complaining's sake.

And of course Rex continued to get paid after he retired, so its wholly inaccurate to equate Chapman playing through pain and Penny milking it for the cash.

Its wrong.

 

[SirStefan32]

Originally posted by Chaplin
Give me a break. Penny hasn't had a chance to prove you all right about how bad he is, let alone to try to prove you wrong.

That's the thing: Penny's strength is CONSISTENCY. This season, he hasn't gotten consistent playing time, which of course means he won't get consistent statistics. These stats you quoted Joe aren't worth jack.

You wanna compare JJ and Penny? Compare them when they have the exact same stats. In fact, JJ and Penny's season statistics were virtually equal before the GS game, and Penny average something like 15 minutes LESS than JJ. How can you seriously say that Penny is worthless with facts like that staring you in the face?

I'm not saying Penny is a superstar, as I am thinking many of the anti-Penny clan will automatically assume. I AM saying, however, that there is no way to accurately gauge how effective (or ineffective) Hardway is this year simply because Frank Johnson won't play him.

I couldn't agree more Chap.
Excellent post

 

[schutd]

This loss angers me. Seriously angers me.

Im going from Kool Aid Kid to darksider pretty damn fast here.

Ive been a fan of this team since 1976. ANd as long as I can remember, save for the coupld of Barkley years, this team has ALWAYS performed the same. Up to the better teams and down to the worse ones.

Id rather root for a crappy team that consistenty sucks and plays hard than one brimming with talent and consistently shows a complete lack of ability to utilize it.

FRUSTRATED!

 

[JCSunsfan]

I've read through this thread with amazement. What hysterical reactions to a single loss. It was the Hawks, and everyone thought they would just roll over, but they didn't. They shot the lights out from 3-pt land and when a team does that, they are going to win. There are going to be nights like that.

I have been pleased with JJ's play this year. He's getting more active on offense and his defense is very good. I don't want to enter into the JJ vs penny stuff but Penny is not even close right now.

We lost this game for several reasons.

1. We do not pass the ball. When we pass the ball we get easy shots and score hoops. It works over and over again. But our team is content to play one on one and watch. NO COACH is content with that. It is obvious that players are not responding to coaching for some reason.

2. Our trapping defense is horrible. We consistently trap the wrong guy, while leaving the oppositions best shooters wide open. Again, this is a mental problem. Either our players are too dumb to figure it out, resistent to coaching, or the coach is failing to communicate or teach.

3. Our starting pf shot .300 (and is shooting in the low .300's for the season) and did not shoot a free throw in 40 mins of pt. When Amare has a game like that, we are not likely to win alot. Maybe he should focus a little less on that jump shot for a while.

 

[NDSunsfan]

I am consistently dismayed that EVERY TEAM in the league loses all concept of time in the last :20 of a close game. Wouldn't it make sense to try and prolong the game as much as possible. With :17 seconds left, get a 2 going to the basket or drive and kick out for a good shot. Foul. Hope they miss one. Then go for a two or three. But almost always, teams hoist up a bad shot--doesn't go in and the game is essentially over with :15 seconds still on the clock. These guys have been playing basketball for their entire lives, and they don't see this. Is it the 'I want to be the hero' in them? I don't get it. Not just last night's game, but all close games.

I LIKE JJ. But, when it's crunch time and teams are taking TO's after almost every possession, that's when Penny should be in there. I think he's a liability defensively and if you want to sub for him on that end, fine, but he is stable and controlled most of the time. That's something that the Suns could use.

I also agree with putting in a big guy. It's always funny how coaches pull a guy with 4 or 5 fouls. What's the difference between a guy on the bench with 5 fouls and a guy on the bench with 6 fouls? They're both ON THE BENCH! Get a banger in there. If he fouls out, so be it. If not, all the better. Doesn't seem that difficult, is it?

Why does Zarko get such limited minutes? I really like his game. He needs to play more.

I don't have a real problem with CJ, but it is weird that he only gets minutes in the 4th qtr. Why not give him some extended minutes before that to see if he's 'on' or not.

GO GET A REBOUND!! Crunch time ends up with 5 guys standing around the 3 pt arc holding their hands out---shot goes up---5 red shirts going for a rebound. Yikes. It seems like you see that a lot when teams zone up the Suns, too. They always talk about it being harder to box out in a zone because you don't have a man to guard, shouldn't that mean it should be easier to get to the offensive boards?

I used to like Frank and think the Frank bashing around here was not warranted. I'm turning to the dark side now. I don't see how any decisions he is making are specifically helping the Suns win.

Sorry so long.

Brad

 

[Chaz]

Originally posted by NDSunsfan
I used to like Frank and think the Frank bashing around here was not warranted. I'm turning to the dark side now. I don't see how any decisions he is making are specifically helping the Suns win.

I feel the same way.

 

[fordronken]

To put it quite simply, good coaching is the reason good teams don't lose to bad teams. Good coaches prepare teams night in and night out.

 

[scotsman13]

is the coaching everything that i hoped it would be on this team?

no i see a lot of areas that i think shows coaching chooses and that in some areas they are not doing well. spacing on the floor. set plays, moving without the ball, are all areas that i believe that the coach should be held to, but half the stuff you guys are complaining about dont have anything to do with the coach. good teams have always played down to bad teams. most people that phil jackson is one of the best coaches in the nba but if that is the case how has the lakers even lost one game? give fj a brake on some of this stuff.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by scotsman13
is the coaching everything that i hoped it would be on this team?

no i see a lot of areas that i think shows coaching chooses and that in some areas they are not doing well. spacing on the floor. set plays, moving without the ball, are all areas that i believe that the coach should be held to, but half the stuff you guys are complaining about dont have anything to do with the coach. good teams have always played down to bad teams. most people that phil jackson is one of the best coaches in the nba but if that is the case how has the lakers even lost one game? give fj a brake on some of this stuff.

You can only give him so many breaks. And he's run out. We've given him the benefit of the doubt for a long time now, and there is no improvement whatsoever in the product he is in charge of.

 

[NDSunsfan]

even if he's not the one to blame for the failings of the team, it is becoming clear he is not making any improvements. bad sets/poor motion/slow starts/bad shot selection/bad defensive matchups/etc.....if all those are not his fault, he should at least be making improvements in those areas, and I don't see it happening. I'm starting to agree with Chap and the rest, he's run out of second chances.

The Suns struggled against a zone last year. As a coach it should be his job to come up with a gameplan to do a better job against it. They do the same thing as last year. Either the Suns players are completely un-coachable and don't listen or he isn't saying anything.

Brad

 

[haverford]

I second that. There was a somewhat lame effort in the third q. to place Zarko in the middle of the zone and dump it into him and have him kick it out, as some suggested on this board as a solution. But that was quickly abandoned, probably when Casey was plunked into the mix. BTW, once again, I think Barbosa has a lot to offer this team. Granted he's probably not in the best shape yet, but we should have seen a little more of him last night.

FJ is making some serious errors in managing his players.

 

[BALLERMANIA2]

FRANK JOHNSON IS MAINLY AT FAULT.

the job of a coach is to motivate and put the team in the best positon to succed. on that note, there is no way in he!! that he normally puts this team in a position to succeed. he tries to force small ball, he doesnt have a clue on what to do on zone defense, and he doesnt seem to maximize the players talents. the suns fall into playing "STREETBALL" because they have no offense that consisitently gets them scoring opporunities. to have all star pro athletes to try to go one on one as much as the suns do is ridiculous. you wont go far playing that way. for goodness sakes, you have marbury, marion and amare and you struggle for points. thats just stupid. an offense should have been set up to utilize them better because they all have different strengths to take advantage of. fj had a whole off-season to get this straight, but yet he smiles when they are sucking it up like he has everything under control. you dont have jack under control when you sub cj for amare or when you allow marion to get killed in the post over and over again against shareef. he had to have known that we would have to double team and then glover, terry and others would get wide open looks for threes. god forbid he put an actual power forward on him after fouls and shots made. also, how will you get continuity when penny plays 15 min one game then 9 another or play barbosa and Z inconsistent minutes. you see a player for 2 games and then not see them for 3 or four. players look to their coach for leadership and confidence in GAME MANAGEMENT and fj doesnt provide that. i think a perfect simple example of his ineptness is the thought he has that he can consisitently play "small ball" in the biggest conference in the league. you just cant have jj guarding karl malone and marion guarding duncan. thats just dumb and gimmicky and wont work long at all. i think its arrogance and ignorance on his part. the suns fans will continue to be frustrated and irritated until something is done. the suns won in spite of him last year and i can only hope that they do it this year.

 

[matt_whitlock]

How can you not love the guy? He looks like he doesn't have a mean bone in his body. He's the perfect physical speciman for the 2 guard. And, he's still in his very early 20's. Physically, he's not that far away. And, considering there is still tons of experience yet to be tapped... I like his chances to become a real bitch in this league

You know it's funny. If I was frozen in the Spring of 2001, and then thawed out last night, if I came to these boards and clicked on this thread, I would have thought I had been thawed right back in 2001. Why? Because we've been hearing the same damn thing since then!

When JJ came here from Boston, he scored 23+ points, 6+ rebounds, and 4+ assists in his first 2 games. Those two games would be better than any single game he's played this season. He had potential then, and I guess he had potential now, but that's it. Yeah, he has an okay game once in a while, but he did this as a rookie as well, so everytime he has a 20 point game on 6-15 shooting, does that mean he's finally coming around, or does that mean he's merely showing the one thing he can be consistent with is his inconsistency.

If you're content with good games 25% of the time, you have to be content with good wins 25% of the time. That's Joe Johnson for ya, and that's the Phoenix Suns with him in the lineup.

We lost this game for several reasons.

1. We do not pass the ball. When we pass the ball we get easy shots and score hoops. It works over and over again. But our team is content to play one on one and watch. NO COACH is content with that. It is obvious that players are not responding to coaching for some reason.

2. Our trapping defense is horrible. We consistently trap the wrong guy, while leaving the oppositions best shooters wide open. Again, this is a mental problem. Either our players are too dumb to figure it out, resistent to coaching, or the coach is failing to communicate or teach.

3. Our starting pf shot .300 (and is shooting in the low .300's for the season) and did not shoot a free throw in 40 mins of pt. When Amare has a game like that, we are not likely to win alot. Maybe he should focus a little less on that jump shot for a while.

Penny has always been an unselfish player, many times to a fault. Almost too often he gets the ball and just looks to swing it immediately, without even looking for his shot. He has always been a guy who helps the flow of the offense out tremendously. Why should we believe he is any different this year? Because he is reportedly in better shape than years past? That doesn't seem like a good explanation to me.

Penny also helps Amare out. I'm not saying he will magically turn him into Kevin Garnett, but he will look for him at on the low block, and will be able to get him the ball when others cannot. Amare still has a lot to work on with his game. I don't honestly see much improvement in his lost post moves or even shooting ability. But Penny can help get him the ball in situations where he can do something productive with it.

So there is two out of the three problems you stated, if not solved, than at least soothed. I say start Penny, and do it quickly. If ever we need somebody to take lots of shots away from Shawn Marion, then fine, insert JJ - he loves that. Otherwise, stick with what works.

 

[cly2tw]

It seems that the majority would agree on a short-time fix of the offensive game by inserting Penny into the starting lineup. I totally agree. And just tell JJ that we, the team, are actually more than happy with his performance as a starter, but we need Penny's production back to that of last year for the team to win more games. I guess he should be understanding this team concept and won't feel demolished again like it was last year. Actually, though he improved as a starter, he might have improved more as a backup with his added confidence now. So, this move would be a win-win-win-win situation for Penyy-JJ-Suns-fans!