Game Thread: Suns vs. Hawks

[matt_whitlock]

I can't wait till next preseason though. I'm predicting a good 22 points, 7 rebounds, .5 assists from JJ.

Nobody plays against 4th stringers better than he does.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

How about next summer league?

I cant wait to see Penny light up those players. The only person better is Bo Outlaw

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by thegrahamcrackr
I gave all of those players shooting percentages in comparrsion to JJs. Are you saying you wouldn't want Billups or Manu to start for the suns at the 2g because they are shooting equally as bad as JJ right now...........

yes - but each one of those guy gets to the line more frequently than JJ - hence they can still be both offesnive and defensive presences on the court. And to compare him to Manu who makes everyone around him better isn't really something that should even be mentioned.

I don't see what the harm could be to try Penny back in the starting lien-up. This team actually looks a lot like the team last year at the beginning of the season when JJ was given the starting job - honestly - what could it hurt?

 

[Joe Mama]

The Phoenix Suns looked good whenever they had a real center in the lineup and Amare Stoudemire guarding Shareef Abdur-Rahim one-on-one. It was the double-teaming on SAR that killed the Suns tonight.

Why did the Phoenix Suns make an effort to get a true center if they aren't going to play him when it matters?

Joe Mama

 

[Chaz]

Originally posted by Chaplin
I'm sick of Joe Johnson. I wish he was more consistent, but how much longer do we have to endure the pain of watching him try to be a clutch player when he has PROVEN for years now that he is not? Any production we get out of him is gravy. But him having a good defensive game doesn't turn the loss into a win, does it?

Let's have some perspective. JJ is a very young player.

He came out of school early and it is just years, as in 2.

He has played good defense.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by SirChaz
Let's have some perspective. JJ is a very young player.

He came out of school early and it is just years, as in 2.

He has played good defense.

I'm tired of the younger player talk - this is JJs third season in the league - he's flashing the same stuff he did his first two years - my problem with this is we are not seeing PROGRESSION - it's the same inconsistency that has been there since he got in the league. I mean this kid was a lottery pick and there are a hell of a lot of players who don't even stay for one year and are consistent by their third season. It would be one thing if he was on/off/on/off - but it's more like our shooting guard is off/off/on/off/off/off/on. That's not inconsistency - that's borderline bad - at least from an offensive standpoint - all the defense in the world don't matter if you can't at least match the man you are shutting down - you lose the battle that way.

 

[elindholm]

Why did the Phoenix Suns make an effort to get a true center if they aren't going to play him when it matters?

Because Bryan Colangelo doesn't coach the team, and Frank Johnson doesn't make personnel moves.

It honestly looks as though the coaching staff and the front office don't have any communication at all during the season. And I can't believe that anyone thought having Marion guard Abdur-Rahim during most of the fourth quarter was going to be a winning strategy.

I guess the coaching staff must read this board, where the consensus is that Abdur-Rahim really isn't very good.

 

[Cheesebeef]

also - where was JJs great D when we were giving up 32 first quarter points to a team coming off back to backs?

 

[scotsman13]

if both joe johnson and penny were making the smae money i would still pick jj over penny without and second guessing.


as far as blasting jj for a bad shooting night or % why dont you go bitch out tmac,. what is he shooting on the year 35% and he is a superstar? my god folks just because you think that penny is something special doesnt mean you should hate jj. jj comes in every night and plays hard. penny comes in every night and starts throwing the ball away. give a 21 year old player a brake.

 

[Chaz]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
I'm tired of the younger player talk - this is JJs third season in the league - he's flashing the same stuff he did his first two years - my problem with this is we are not seeing PROGRESSION - it's the same inconsistency that has been there since he got in the league. I mean this kid was a lottery pick and there are a hell of a lot of players who don't even stay for one year and are consistent by their third season. It would be one thing if he was on/off/on/off - but it's more like our shooting guard is off/off/on/off/off/off/on. That's not inconsistency - that's borderline bad - at least from an offensive standpoint - all the defense in the world don't matter if you can't at least match the man you are shutting down - you lose the battle that way.

I wouldn't say Amare is consistant yet.
I'm not comparing Amare to Joe directly, because we are not sure of JJ's role yet. Amare just got his first assist.
We should know this year if JJ is our starting 2 of the future. But if we are going to find out now we have to continue to play him there. They also need to get Zarko 20+ min at least.


This is a young team. If we are going to lose, lets lose with the young players.

The improvement is needed in the coaching.

 

[scotsman13]

cheese where is penny ever at on the defensive end? how come it is always that suns fault that they loose why cant the other team have a good game? why does it always have to be jj or fj or some guy up in the 3rd role. this is a sport if there wasnt a chance that a team would win there wouldnt be a reason to have betting on the game.

teams lose face it and live with it, laker fans are rolling in their graves that the lakers have even lost a game this season.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by scotsman13
if both joe johnson and penny were making the smae money i would still pick jj over penny without and second guessing.


as far as blasting jj for a bad shooting night or % why dont you go bitch out tmac,. what is he shooting on the year 35% and he is a superstar? my god folks just because you think that penny is something special doesnt mean you should hate jj. jj comes in every night and plays hard. penny comes in every night and starts throwing the ball away. give a 21 year old player a brake.

my goodnessman - I don't think Penny is something special - far from it - he hasn't been special for years - it doesn't take away from the fact that last year when Penny was healthy and playing and feeding Amare this team was rolling - Steph got his shots and points, Penny set up the others and Amare was becoming a man child - then he went down, the team struggled and then when he came back - what do you know - they started playing good ball again. Also - don't you remember a every similar looking team last year playing a very similar looking way and losing games at home to horrednous teams like the Nuggets?

I'm not being hard on JJ because I LOVE Penny (by the way - there is a grey area here people - just because you'd like to see Penny get a shot - doesn't mean you HATE JJ or love PENNY) - I'm being hard on JJ because he's hurting the team and hasn't showed the consistency to be a starting player on this team right now. Hell if we could somehow get Penny off the books and trade his ass I would be all for it - but we can't so we may as well be as good as possible and at least try and see if what worked last year will work this year - especially with Amare having another year under his belt - wouldn't you like to see him getting set up more often right now - it was Penny who did a good job of theat last year. What would it hurt to at least try and bring Penny back?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by scotsman13
cheese where is penny ever at on the defensive end? how come it is always that suns fault that they loose why cant the other team have a good game? why does it always have to be jj or fj or some guy up in the 3rd role. this is a sport if there wasnt a chance that a team would win there wouldnt be a reason to have betting on the game.

teams lose face it and live with it, laker fans are rolling in their graves that the lakers have even lost a game this season.

What is the worst that could happen if they tired to bring Penny back into the starting line-up? Do you not think that he was a key player for us last year and had a good deal to do with our success - or do you just dismiss the discrepency in wins and losses in the game he started versus the games he was out? The HAWKS SHOULD NOT COME INTO OUR HOUSE AND BEAT US.

 

[elindholm]

Johnson is struggling, but I'd still rather see him getting the minutes than Hardaway. Hardaway's defense is an outright joke. As soon as the ball leaves his man, he turns his head to see where the ball is. Then his man moves to some wide-open spot on the floor, and Hardaway turns around with this dazed look on his face. "Huh? Where'd he go?" It happens almost every time down the floor. I don't have a big problem with him on offense -- in fact I think he could shoot more when he's open, instead of deferring so much -- but his defense is a disaster.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by elindholm
Johnson is struggling, but I'd still rather see him getting the minutes than Hardaway. Hardaway's defense is an outright joke. As soon as the ball leaves his man, he turns his head to see where the ball is. Then his man moves to some wide-open spot on the floor, and Hardaway turns around with this dazed look on his face. "Huh? Where'd he go?" It happens almost every time down the floor. I don't have a big problem with him on offense -- in fact I think he could shoot more when he's open, instead of deferring so much -- but his defense is a disaster.

if we could just put the two guys together - WE'D BE SET!

 

[Chaz]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
The HAWKS SHOULD NOT COME INTO OUR HOUSE AND BEAT US.

AMEN!

Penny didn't have to start.
Penny just needed more than 16 minutes.

Casey needed less than 20.

Zarko needed more than 8.

 

[Joe Mama]

I am as frustrated as the next guy with Joe Johnson's shooting, but the answer isn't more Penny Hardaway. He shooting just 39% from the field this season, and his defense is worse than ever. He was getting torched on a regular basis tonight. And please don't try to tell me that's going to be fixed by getting moved into the starting lineup.

To tell you the truth the only guy in the starting lineup that I am happy with so far is White. Marbury is not passing the ball around enough. Shawn Marion is not shooting as well as he should be. We've already talked about Joe Johnson. Amare Stoudemire is taking too many wild shots. He needs to work on getting better position before he receives the ball, and his teammates need to do a better job of finding him.

Joe Mama

 

[Chaz]

In the first quarter JJ was taking it to the basket, feeding White and Amare in the post, making assists and steals...

I doubt Penny could have started much better than JJ.





I wanted Battie instead of White.

White has played very well and his size was so needed.
I don't think Battie would have fit in and played this well.



I was wrong.

 

[scotsman13]

personally, i dont think that penny can or ever will be a key to a winning season. i have heard everyone on this board blasting fj about putting googs in and the offense drying up. while guys penny comes in at that same time. he turns the ball over, makes poor shooting chooses and doesnt get the ball to others well this season. i have watched every single game and hope to have seen every game this year. but as bad as anyone and i do mean anyone on this team has played penny has been equal to the worst person on the floor at any given time.

and the idea of putting jj and penny together is just scary. one of jj biggest assists is that he has heart. penny never has had any heart. so in other words you would make jj a player who goes on the ir for a hangnail? because that is what penny is. remember rex champman played half the season with a torn ligement in his shooting hand, penny misses half the season with a torn lifement in his non shooting hand. rex had to retire after that season because the damage was so bad. penny just continues to milk the great money cow.

 

[Chaplin]

Give me a break. Penny hasn't had a chance to prove you all right about how bad he is, let alone to try to prove you wrong.

That's the thing: Penny's strength is CONSISTENCY. This season, he hasn't gotten consistent playing time, which of course means he won't get consistent statistics. These stats you quoted Joe aren't worth jack.

You wanna compare JJ and Penny? Compare them when they have the exact same stats. In fact, JJ and Penny's season statistics were virtually equal before the GS game, and Penny average something like 15 minutes LESS than JJ. How can you seriously say that Penny is worthless with facts like that staring you in the face?

I'm not saying Penny is a superstar, as I am thinking many of the anti-Penny clan will automatically assume. I AM saying, however, that there is no way to accurately gauge how effective (or ineffective) Hardway is this year simply because Frank Johnson won't play him.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by scotsman13
personally, i dont think that penny can or ever will be a key to a winning season.

Do you have any idea what we're talking about? Nobody has said that Penny is the key to a "winning" season, i.e. a championship season. But several people, including you, are implying that Joe Johnson IS. And that's wrong.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by scotsman13
and the idea of putting jj and penny together is just scary. one of jj biggest assists is that he has heart. penny never has had any heart. so in other words you would make jj a player who goes on the ir for a hangnail? because that is what penny is. remember rex champman played half the season with a torn ligement in his shooting hand, penny misses half the season with a torn lifement in his non shooting hand. rex had to retire after that season because the damage was so bad. penny just continues to milk the great money cow.

This sounds like someone just complaining for complaining's sake.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by scotsman13
personally, i dont think that penny can or ever will be a key to a winning season. i have heard everyone on this board blasting fj about putting googs in and the offense drying up. while guys penny comes in at that same time. he turns the ball over, makes poor shooting chooses and doesnt get the ball to others well this season. i have watched every single game and hope to have seen every game this year. but as bad as anyone and i do mean anyone on this team has played penny has been equal to the worst person on the floor at any given time.

and the idea of putting jj and penny together is just scary. one of jj biggest assists is that he has heart. penny never has had any heart. so in other words you would make jj a player who goes on the ir for a hangnail? because that is what penny is. remember rex champman played half the season with a torn ligement in his shooting hand, penny misses half the season with a torn lifement in his non shooting hand. rex had to retire after that season because the damage was so bad. penny just continues to milk the great money cow.

that's just ridiculous - a guy doesn't go through the injuries, goes through rehab, even plays hurt in the playoffs and does so well and keeps playing if they have no heart - it's one thing to question Penny's deteriorating skills, but it's a whole nother matter to question his heart.

 

[sly fly]

Everybody take a deep breath on the JJ thing.

Both camps are right and wrong.

He's as young as they come. Sorry, Cheese... but this has a lot to do with his development. The 2 guard position in the NBA could be the toughest position in sports (or at least right up there). It takes a true superstar to consistently put up huge numbers at that position. Asking JJ to do that every night is a bit much at this point in his career.

How can you not love the guy? He looks like he doesn't have a mean bone in his body. He's the perfect physical speciman for the 2 guard. And, he's still in his very early 20's. Physically, he's not that far away. And, considering there is still tons of experience yet to be tapped... I like his chances to become a real bitch in this league (if he isn't already). However...

JJ does need to become stronger upstairs. Too often will he let the game dictate his aggresiveness. He needs to play with a chip on his shoulder every minute he's out there. He's not a sniper, yet.

Hopefully, he'll develop that offensive swagger that many of the stars possess (Ray Allen, Paul Pierce, Eddie Jones, Peja Stojakovic, etc). JJ is too gifted physically for this not to happen. It's just going to take some time with him.

 

[Chaz]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
that's just ridiculous - a guy doesn't go through the injuries, goes through rehab, even plays hurt in the playoffs and does so well and keeps playing if they have no heart - it's one thing to question Penny's deteriorating skills, but it's a whole nother matter to question his heart.

Exactly, Let's just put away the questions on Penny's desire. I think it is there. I just question his stamina and consistancy. Penny is a pretty smart player and he finds his teammates and shoots pretty well.

I'm not sure if Penny or JJ will be around for a championship run. I do know they need to play JJ now and find out, or find another young 2 guard, JJ is our best option right now.

It is early in the season. It is a long way to April and May. Veterans like Penny and Googs can pay dividends later. The young guys need a chance to play.