Game Thread: Suns vs. Rockets

[sly fly]

The offensive foul call on Amare was a flippin joke.

 

[slinslin]

what a joke of a game again

 

[sly fly]

PHX deserves this game.

I'm not seeing happy, happy, joy, joy, joy with Amare and Steph.

This team looks tight. I wish they'd go out and have fun. They'd probably score 150.

BTW, I would hate to be Francis' shoulder right now. The pick Jahidi set was bone-chilling.

You could say that was a nice dunk by Amare just now. What a freak.

 

[slinslin]

I am tired of these Suns playing well for a quarter or 2 and then stop doing anything until it is too late.

 

[Cheesebeef]

man - you now it is still relatively early on during the season - but there is reason to worry - this has been the easy part of the schedule - do you guys realize that after this month - 22 of our next 32 games are on the road? Where is the fire and excitement last year's team brought to the floor? I have never been a big FJ fan - but I did admire the way he got our guys to play last year - especially in the biggest games - even when they were out-matched - but he has size now and he doesn't use it and his substitution patterns just don't make sense to me. I hope this somehow gets turned around because I don't want to go into Cardinal mode and start hoping for losses so that our coach will finally get fired - it's too early in the season to do that and this team is just too damn talented. I will tell you this - this team is missing evterans - I know they are young - but every young team that is succssful has a couple crafty vets who have been around the block for a while to give the team some grit - this team is missing that.

 

[cheng]

Originally posted by cheesebeef
I hope this somehow gets turned around because I don't want to go into Cardinal mode and start hoping for losses so that our coach will finally get fired

I already started thinking this way when we lost to Utah.

fire FJ now or the team is lottery bound

tonight's loss didnt surprise anyone didnt it?

 

[Joe Mama]

And space

Originally posted by slinslin
I am tired of these Suns playing well for a quarter or 2 and then stop doing anything until it is too late.

It really is because the Phoenix Suns cannot shoot consistently. They took the lead in the first half because Marbury was shooting lights out from outside. Once they took the ball out of his hands nobody else was knocking down the shots.

Take away Stephon Marbury and the Phoenix Suns shot just 19-58 tonight. That's 33%. That's just not going to get it done. And for the most part the problem was not shot selection. They can't shoot.


Joe Mama

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by cheng
I already started thinking this way when we lost to Utah.

fire FJ now or the team is lottery bound

tonight's loss didnt surprise anyone didnt it?

The other night I could have understood all the calls for Frank Johnson's head. Tonight I don't see it though. Frank Johnson did not play small ball at all tonight as far as I could tell.

Nope, this one goes on the players. Specifically for blame goes to the perimeter players who shot horribly.

Joe Mama

 

[matt_whitlock]

Take away Stephon Marbury and the Phoenix Suns shot just 19-58 tonight. That's 33%. That's just not going to get it done. And for the most part the problem was not shot selection. They can't shoot.

I bet to differ. Joe Johnson didnt' miss a single shot other than the 8 shots he missed. Not only that, but other than the 5 turnovers he had, he didn't turn the ball over once. Moreover, he made all four of his shots that he made. On one of those, there was a defender within at least 6 feet of him, meaning Stephon Marbury didn't do everything but put the ball in the whole for him.

And just because the game was tied at 69-69 when Penny came out with about 8 minutes left in the 4th quarter doesn't mean that the Suns only scoring 5 points the next 6 minutes of the game had anything to do with him.

And let me just say this. Joe Johnson is not, metaphorically speaking, building a 4 story, Beverly Hills, 15,000 square foot mansion with the bricks he's throwing up there. Not at all. So anybody who was thinking that, you're wrong!

 

[Joe Mama]

It might have been 69-69 when Penny Hardaway came out of the game, but that was hardly because of anything Hardaway did. He looked like garbage again tonight.

That said, I wouldn't be opposed to starting Penny Hardaway to see if that would help to get a little more out of him. He's contributing squat right now, and on defense he's been a real liability.

In a perfect world the Phoenix Suns would have a starting shooting guard that was a good, consistent shooter and decent defender. Then they could bring Joe Johnson off the bench

Joe Mama

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by matt_whitlock
I bet to differ. Joe Johnson didnt' miss a single shot other than the 8 shots he missed. Not only that, but other than the 5 turnovers he had, he didn't turn the ball over once. Moreover, he made all four of his shots that he made. On one of those, there was a defender within at least 6 feet of him, meaning Stephon Marbury didn't do everything but put the ball in the whole for him.

And just because the game was tied at 69-69 when Penny came out with about 8 minutes left in the 4th quarter doesn't mean that the Suns only scoring 5 points the next 6 minutes of the game had anything to do with him.

And let me just say this. Joe Johnson is not, metaphorically speaking, building a 4 story, Beverly Hills, 15,000 square foot mansion with the bricks he's throwing up there. Not at all. So anybody who was thinking that, you're wrong!

okay - this is becoming an obsession - hey - I gave Johnson a lot of grief a couple nights ago - but his overall gamer tonight was all right - not good - not bad - just okay - but for every post to be like the above just gets a little tiresome - even for the people who wouldn't mind experimenting with a change of shooting guards in the starting line-up.

 

[cheng]

Originally posted by matt_whitlock
I bet to differ. Joe Johnson didnt' miss a single shot other than the 8 shots he missed. Not only that, but other than the 5 turnovers he had, he didn't turn the ball over once. Moreover, he made all four of his shots that he made. On one of those, there was a defender within at least 6 feet of him, meaning Stephon Marbury didn't do everything but put the ball in the whole for him.

And just because the game was tied at 69-69 when Penny came out with about 8 minutes left in the 4th quarter doesn't mean that the Suns only scoring 5 points the next 6 minutes of the game had anything to do with him.

And let me just say this. Joe Johnson is not, metaphorically speaking, building a 4 story, Beverly Hills, 15,000 square foot mansion with the bricks he's throwing up there. Not at all. So anybody who was thinking that, you're wrong!

shut up, you penny fan! Remember JJ is still just 22 years old, give him a break. joking

I agree everything you say. JJ is one of the worst starting SG if not the worst in the whole NBA! I just don't understand why FJ keeps giving the starting SG spot to him without having him earn it in games that count. But I have a theory, perhaps JJ is FJ's secret son.

 

[matt_whitlock]

That said, I wouldn't be opposed to starting Penny Hardaway to see if that would help to get a little more out of him. He's contributing squat right now, and on defense he's been a real liability.

Penny has never been good at coming off the bench. The last two Joe Johnson starting experiments, which had Penny coming off the bench obviously, have seen the same exact decline in play from Penny. Of course, he was playing more than 12 minutes then, but the point is he's never played well off the bench. Could he be worse than Joe Johnson right now, shooting and passing wise? Going 1-4 is one thing, but playing 43 minutes, shooting 12 shots, and still not being able to get in a rhythm. There's actually not a lot of players in the NBA who could do that consistently. JJ is a terrible shooter. It's really as simple as that.

As far as Penny looking like garbage, how do you know? He is a 32 year-old player who has gone through 5 knee surgeries. Do you really expect him to get in any type of groove seeing 3-4 minute stints of action? Think about it: First, he gets warmed up, then sits for 20 minutes (with running clock, time-outs, free throws). Then, he plays for 2 minutes, then sits for another 2 when the quarter ends. Then, he gets up and plays for 3 minutes, gets subbed out, and sits for the next 9 minutes of the half. Then there's 14 minutes of halftime, he gets warmed up, and it starts all over again.

If you expect anything from Penny in that situation, then you might as well just tell me now. I know you're (joe mama) an intelligent basketball fan, and know a great deal about the Phoenix Suns, so I also know you don't believe Penny could realistically do anything BUT SUCK in that type of situation. You'd have to be a moron to believe that, and if you told me this now, I could honestly see no reason to even argue with you. If you're a moron...

But I know you're not.

 

[matt_whitlock]

okay - this is becoming an obsession - hey - I gave Johnson a lot of grief a couple nights ago - but his overall gamer tonight was all right - not good - not bad - just okay - but for every post to be like the above just gets a little tiresome - even for the people who wouldn't mind experimenting with a change of shooting guards in the starting line-up.

I'd love to respond to this in a different way... however I cannot:

You know what I'm tired of? Jesus Ch*st, I'm tired of losing! It's 8 games into the season and I'm tired of the Phoenix Suns. I'm tired of watching whatever talent Penny Hardaway has left rot on the bench because he's stiff coming off the bench. I'm tired of watching Joe Johnson miss, and miss, and miss, and miss, and miss, and miss - I'm tired of feeling the need to actually say this next line, but - and miss, and miss, and miss, and miss! I'm tired of being up at 11:43 PM Eastern Standard time complaining about the Suns losing another game. It's early in the season? I'm tired of hearing that, too. I'm tired of people believing that the Suns will improve, ignorantly disregarding the fact that the Suns have shown no evidence to support such a juvenile idea.

I'm tired of Frank Johnson. I'm tired of Joe Johnson. Shoot, I'm tired of the whole Johnson family.

Well, except Eddie; he's funny. I like Eddie.

 

[Joe Mama]

If you remember when they announced that Joe Johnson would be starting I said I did not like it because Hardaway looks like trash coming off the bench. I really do not understand why the Phoenix Suns seem so intent on making Joe Johnson a starter in the Hardaway a sixth man.

I know I'm contradicting myself here, but it won't be the first time... nor the last. I am now officially in the "start Penny Hardaway" corner. They can still give Joe Johnson significant minutes. This is a move about getting more out of Penny Hardaway. If Hardaway doesn't shoot the ball any better than Joe Johnson I don't know what can be done.

I worry about Hardaway's defense or lack thereof though.

I'm still not really worried about this team. The only game they've lost badly was the Utah game, and they have a nice homestretch coming. I think they will beat Detroit tomorrow.

Joe Mama

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
If you remember when they announced that Joe Johnson would be starting I said I did not like it because Hardaway looks like trash coming off the bench. I really do not understand why the Phoenix Suns seem so intent on making Joe Johnson a starter in the Hardaway a sixth man.

I know I'm contradicting myself here, but it won't be the first time... nor the last. I am now officially in the "start Penny Hardaway" corner. They can still give Joe Johnson significant minutes. This is a move about getting more out of Penny Hardaway. If Hardaway doesn't shoot the ball any better than Joe Johnson I don't know what can be done.

I worry about Hardaway's defense or lack thereof though.

I'm still not really worried about this team. The only game they've lost badly was the Utah game, and they have a nice homestretch coming. I think they will beat Detroit tomorrow.

Joe Mama

I can pretty much agree with everything above.

 

[matt_whitlock]

If you remember when they announced that Joe Johnson would be starting I said I did not like it because Hardaway looks like trash coming off the bench. I really do not understand why the Phoenix Suns seem so intent on making Joe Johnson a starter in the Hardaway a sixth man.

And if you remember, there were two reasons Frank Johnson stated for giving his son the starting job this season.

1. His preseason play. Maybe this was a joke, I don't really know, but JJ playing against 3rd stringers really never impressed me. Somebody said on recently that Penny's summer league play with Bo Outlaw didn't mean anything either. Of course it didn't, but nobody ever acted like it did. Did anybody expect Penny to come in and average a tripple double this season? No. So then why did people expect such great things from Joe Johnson basing their knowledge merely by playing against lots of people who either wouldn't make NBA teams, or wouldn't play for them when he did?

2. Frank also said he put Penny on the bench because he was playing really well with Zarko. Again, this is laughable, although I honestly don't think the guy was joking. Tonight, the two played 0 minutes together. So that cancels that out, I guess...

So basically, I can no longer think of a reason to start JJ over Penny. I honestly believe Penny's defense will improve if he's starting the game, again because of the stiff legs thing. Of course, I really haven't seen that much wrong with Penny's D this year. He plays a lot of help defense, more than anybody else. That's mainly when his man beats him, when he is recovering back out to his man and his man is then able to get by him. Of course, if Frank doesn't want this from him, he should probably just tell him, not sit him. Other than that, when Penny has actually been matched up with his men, his defense has been fine.

And he had 2 steals tonight, Joe Johnson had 0.

 

[matt_whitlock]

Oh and one more thing before I go to bed, JJ missed yet another big shot tonight. With 43 seconds left, he was wide open, and he short-armed a 3 that would've brought us within two points of a tie. It's kind of funny, in Johnson's efforts to prove he can make big plays in key situations, he is proving the exact opposite.

I really wish I could stop bashing JJ, but it's as if I have a large gun that only shoots out Joe Johnson insults, and JJ is constantly feeding me more and more ammunition.

I just pull the trigger, friends.

 

[elindholm]

If the Suns give up on Joe Johnson as a starter -- for the second season in a row, and after getting everyone's hopes up again -- then they might as well give up on him permanently. Because his confidence will be completely shot, and I just don't think it's realistic to expect him to come back from yet another confidence blow. And if it's time to give up on him for good, I don't necessarily have a problem with that. But everyone who recommends pulling him from the starting lineup now, just realize that you're recommending writing off Johnson forever, because that's basically what it will amount to.

The other big problem with taking Johnson out is that it rewards Hardaway for playing badly. I think that is a terrible decision from a team chemistry standpoint. I do not buy the argument that Hardaway "has the goods" to be an effective starting SG, but somehow can't cut it off the bench because of some nonsense reason like how many minutes he sits. If he can still be effective, fine, but it shouldn't matter whether he's starting or subbing. And if he can't handle being a bench player because of his attitude, I don't think it's the Suns' problem to cater to him.

I was with Joe Mama to start the year in thinking that Hardaway should be the starter. And I agree that neither Johnson nor Hardaway has looked good so far. Unfortunately, making a change at this stage, in my opinion, would be even worse than staying the course. Basically my attitude is this:

1. Joe Johnson has to show up now. This is his last chance. If he doesn't have his act together by the All-Star break, give up on him. Forever.

2. Hardaway has to do what he needs to in order to help the team regardless of his role. If that means going into the locker room and riding the exercise bike instead of sitting on the bench, like Dennis Rodman used to do, then fine. But whatever player he still has the potential to be, I want to see that player all the time, not just when he forces himself into a starting role by playing badly on purpose off the bench.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

My main problem isn't who is starting, it is why is Casey Jacobsen eating into either's minutes?

 

[cheng]

Originally posted by elindholm
If the Suns give up on Joe Johnson as a starter -- for the second season in a row, and after getting everyone's hopes up again -- then they might as well give up on him permanently. Because his confidence will be completely shot, and I just don't think it's realistic to expect him to come back from yet another confidence blow. And if it's time to give up on him for good, I don't necessarily have a problem with that. But everyone who recommends pulling him from the starting lineup now, just realize that you're recommending writing off Johnson forever, because that's basically what it will amount to.


2. Hardaway has to do what he needs to in order to help the team regardless of his role. If that means going into the locker room and riding the exercise bike instead of sitting on the bench, like Dennis Rodman used to do, then fine. But whatever player he still has the potential to be, I want to see that player all the time, not just when he forces himself into a starting role by playing badly on purpose off the bench.

You are right. The last thing JJ needs is to get demoted once again. Errntknght mentioned that before and I completely agreed with him.

What Hardaway can do when he plays 15 mins a game? Didn't he have a nice 15 pt game when he played 30 min against LAL? Hardaway didn't out played JJ to get back to the starting lineup last year, it was JJ who played so horribly that he lost the job away. Now why the **** JJ is rewarded to start without earning it, not once, twice but three times since he came here? And he is clearly still not ready for it.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Originally posted by elindholm


1. Joe Johnson has to show up now. This is his last chance. If he doesn't have his act together by the All-Star break, give up on him. Forever.

2. Hardaway has to do what he needs to in order to help the team regardless of his role. If that means going into the locker room and riding the exercise bike instead of sitting on the bench, like Dennis Rodman used to do, then fine. But whatever player he still has the potential to be, I want to see that player all the time, not just when he forces himself into a starting role by playing badly on purpose off the bench.

Thing is I agree with both statements up above - but I'm incredibly torn at the same time. First if a demotion right now is going to permanently right Joe off forever, then he just ain't mentally tough enough to be an important part of what we hope will one day be a championship team. I really like the kid's defense and I really like the kid's rebounding, but this is my fear about continuing to go with him - this is a very young team, coming off a very good season where they got a lot of pub - this year is crucial - a step backwards and who knows the problems that could lurk around the corner - already we are seeing a somewhat different Marbury this year (and don't get me wrong - i LOVE Steph - and I hate to even say this - but some of the stuff in his past does still linger in my head a little) and we have a young Amare who has talent bursting at the seams and isn't getting the ball - this young team needs to continue to win and at least do as well as last year's club - the great teams build off that first year - they do not regress - that is key that we do not regress - my fear is that Johnson - as it is right now is one of the factors - that if we leave to the All-Star game we could be in a hole that we don't come back from - Winning cures everything and we all know what happens when teams lose.

As far as Penny playing his hardest whatever role he is given - I completely agree - but I do have to wonder why his minutes have decreased sooo much this year in comparison to last - he needs to be able to get in a flow to be productive and I'm not advocating cutting Joe's minutes here, but why in the hell is Casey taking minutes away from him? IN the best overall game we played this year - we played 3 quarters against the Lakers when we were dynamite - that game got me excited - Steph played well, Amare exploded during the third quarter and Shawn Marion missed huge shots as usual (whoops - had to throw a dig in at Shawn - just couldn't resist) AND Joe and Penny got good minutes and BOTH were productive - Joe hit big shots and Penny had a spring in his legs and had 16 crcuial bench points for us.

Bottom line is this - in order for this team to win on a consistent basis they not only need decent play from one of these guys - but they need decent play FROM BOTH - and now - because as it is - for whatever reason both are hurting us tremendously and it's time for the coach to figure out how to rectify that situation.

 

[sly fly]

Again. It's a long season, guys. Most of you are panicking.

Yes, it's hurts to lose games that could have been won. But, what we're we to expect? This team is young and thin off the bench. Losing Big Jake has put more pressure on the interior D. It's a huge hole.

I call for a moritorium on the JJ bashing for the next 15 games. Judge JJ after that.

Actually, I thought he played "decent" tonight. He was around the ball, made some good passes, made some bad passes, and failed to hit another big jumper.

I see the improvement in JJ. Sounds like others are ready to give up on him. It's gonna be hilarious see some people eat crow when he really goes off. He's not that far away.

I'm actually more optimistic about JJ than Marion, right now. At least I can see all the room for improvement with JJ. Marion continues to amass the quietest points I've ever seen. The next three he takes should be his last. And, it's usually out of the flow of the O.

Marion has become a ghost. He'll get you 20 and 8 most nights, but somethings missing. I wish I could put my finger on it.

This team is real close. Chemistry is a problem. I do think they'll go on a big run of W's soon (barring injuries).

'nuff rambling...

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I think JJ did earn it. He rebounds and plays better D right now than Hardaway did all last year. He is actively attacking the basket, and producing a lot of assists or buckets.

His shooting sucks, but quite frankly, the entire TEAMs shooting sucks.



I think a big part is completely ignoring Amare on the offensive end. The ball should go through him on every position. Period.

 

[creed]

Penny needs to start??

Ya know...People that support Penny are always making excuses for the guy. According to them he fails because..

1) Penny is cold because he didn't start
2) Penny doesn't get enough minutes
3) Penny should be playing in the fourth quarter (cuz he's so clutch??)

Look...If people want Penny to be a regular starter then Penny has only to do one thing to get that chance...PRODUCE! Real simple. If Penny comes in the game off the bench and looks good over and over then Frank will make him a starter. Thats all he has to do! If he plays like garbage everytime we see him then why do we want him starting and getting more minutes? Penny fans act like the stars have to be lined up just right to get any kind of productiuon out of him and thats so sad man....real sad. And I dont buy "making Penny a starter will make him play better" argument at all. He's started last year numerous times and rarely did we see a good game out of him. But then the Penny fans claimed he wasnt playing long enough to get a groove on. I mean c'mon...he's washed up so lets quit kidding around with this guy. I'd still rather see more of JJ to know if he's a part of our future. That way we'll know one way or the other whether to keep him or not.