Game Thread: Suns vs. Rockets

Chris_Sanders

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What is suprising to me is how Penny had a great game in game 1 and then was immediately benched for Joe Johnson...

That made zero sense now, and makes less when you look at it in retrospect.
 

creed

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Originally posted by Chris_Sanders
Game 1: 2002

40 minutes 16 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists.

Next start 5 games later:

20 points, 7 rebounds, 6 assists

Following Game:

10 points (4-8 from the field), 7 rebounds, 7 assists

After that

13 points (4-9), 6 rebounds, 7 assists

I only looked at Penny's first four starts last year. He shot over 50% as a starter and averaged 15 points, 7 rebounds, and most importantly 7 assists a game.

When Penny comes off the bench, he is looking for his shot too much because that is the job that FJ wants him to do. To be that heater off the bench. When he starts, he lets the game come to him more.

Do you require more "stats"? Frankly, you could spend some of your time looking this up yourself instead of wasting mine.

I never said Penny never had a decent game. If I had all day I could show the numerous stats to the contrary where he was a zero factor....like last nights game. If he was consistant we wouldnt be having this discussion in the first place and Frank would have him starting. I mean are we to believe all it takes is to start Penny and we'll see a 180 degree turn around? Mannnn..what a disservice to Penny huh?
 

elindholm

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What is suprising to me is how Penny had a great game in game 1 and then was immediately benched for Joe Johnson...

Hardaway and Johnson both started in that game. Marbury was suspended because of his DUI.
 

matt_whitlock

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What is suprising to me is how Penny had a great game in game 1 and then was immediately benched for Joe Johnson...

Joe Johnson also had a pretty good game that night also, though. And JJ ended the previous season in the starting lineup, so it made sense just to keep him in it at the start of next season.

Of course, Penny was in the starting lineup last season, so it would make sense to start him this year, too. But we've been over this.
 

matt_whitlock

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I remember a game last year against Sacremento that the Suns won 109-84. That might've been our best game of the season. It was nationally televised, and after the game Kenny Smith specifically said, "you know what, Shawn Marion had 27 tonight, Marbury had 26, but someone who really had the Suns going was Penny Hardaway. He really played well tonight." and Ernie Smith looked at the stat sheet and goes, "well, he had 5 points tonight."

He had five points, and yet Kenny was saying he was the difference maker in the game. That was how it went all season.

I challenge somebody to accurately find both Amare and Shawn's stats when Penny is in the starting lineup, and when he's not. Then post them. I'd be interested in what you find.
 

elindholm

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The Suns do play better when Hardaway starts. Let's look at why.

1. Sometimes when Joe Johnson is starting instead, Hardaway is injured. So the Suns, not deep in scoring to begin with, are a man down. Of course they suffer.

2. Other times when Joe Johnson is starting instead, Hardaway is coming off of the bench. Unfortunately, he is too much of a baby to do this with any professionalism. As a bench player last season, Hardaway shot a mere 33% from the field, and all of his other numbers were down too. This year, he's not much better. I'll say it again -- all of the excuses for why he's ineffective coming off the bench are just that: excuses. If he has game, he needs to bring it all the time.

Hardaway is holding the team hostage by refusing to play well unless he is properly catered to. He's no longer spouting off to the media, but his impact on the team is just as bad. I think the Suns would be more successful if he were re-inserted into the starting lineup. But that is negotiating with a terrorist.

I say the hell with Hardaway. If he wants to sabotage the team, fine -- he can ride the bench and stay out of the way. Joe Johnson isn't getting it done, but I'd rather have the team lose a few more games this year than keep repeating this pattern of Hardaway's ego running the team.

What a nightmare these seven years continue to be. I feel as though they will never end.
 

DaFlogger

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Originally posted by elindholm

I say the hell with Hardaway. If he wants to sabotage the team, fine -- he can ride the bench and stay out of the way. Joe Johnson isn't getting it done, but I'd rather have the team lose a few more games this year than keep repeating this pattern of Hardaway's ego running the team.


Well said, Bravo!!! Leaders and role models aren't suppose to be wearing pampers. Much less filling them up during every performance.
 

matt_whitlock

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Well said, Bravo!!! Leaders and role models aren't suppose to be wearing pampers. Much less filling them up during every performance.

Haha, that's kinda funny. I'm about to explain why it doesnt' actually pertain to Penny, but it's still kind of funny.

I say the hell with Hardaway. If he wants to sabotage the team, fine -- he can ride the bench and stay out of the way. Joe Johnson isn't getting it done, but I'd rather have the team lose a few more games this year than keep repeating this pattern of Hardaway's ego running the team.

I can't see how you believe this. Hardaway specifically said that he would be happy with any role he was given. In an azcentral article, I remember him saying, in response to a question about his starting or not, "It really doesn't matter whether I start or come off the bench. I just want to help this team win in whatever way possible. People talk about starting, not starting, and we really don't care about that stuff - my thing is, however we go about winning a championship, let's do it together." How is that selfish? How is that "not professional"? About a week ago, Penny also was raving about Joe Johnson and how once he starts clicking, the sky's the limit for him. If you read what he says about JJ, Penny seems to be his staunchist supporter, to be honest.

Penny trying to sabotage this team is just absurd. Comparing a player who doesn't get enough minutes to a terrorist is equally absurd. I dont' really know what else to say about that.

2. Other times when Joe Johnson is starting instead, Hardaway is coming off of the bench. Unfortunately, he is too much of a baby to do this with any professionalism. As a bench player last season, Hardaway shot a mere 33% from the field, and all of his other numbers were down too. This year, he's not much better. I'll say it again -- all of the excuses for why he's ineffective coming off the bench are just that: excuses. If he has game, he needs to bring it all the time.

What are you saying, that he purposely misses shots to make his team suffer? If that's the case, why would he make any? Why not just miss every single shot, turn the ball over a lot? Why swing the ball the open man constantly instead of shooting a forced shot? I suppose Penny is trying to maintain the perfect balance where he plays just badly enough to make the Suns lose and yet still get enough minutes to make that happen.

I guess, of course, if you want to talk about professionalism, or lack thereof, we should mention Joe Johnson. Frank Johnson, even if he wanted to, really can't put Penny back in the lineup where he belongs because JJ wouldn't be able to handle it. Some people have said he would be crushed forever and would never regain the confidence to help Phoenix win. Is that being a consumate professional? Hardly. That's being a fragile little child.

Putting Penny in the starting lineup could merely be an experiment. If he doesn't play better, or if the Suns team isn't any more succesful, then fine, put JJ back in there. Unfortunately, the Suns don't have that luxury of experimenting because Joe Johnson is too much of an emotional b*tch to handle that. We dont' want to lose Joe Johnson forever, so we start him, no matter the cost.

Is that professionalism?
 
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schutd

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Originally posted by matt_whitlock


I can't see how you believe this. Hardaway specifically said that he would be happy with any role he was given. In an azcentral article, I remember him saying, in response to a question about his starting or not, "It really doesn't matter whether I start or come off the bench. I just want to help this team win in whatever way possible. People talk about starting, not starting, and we really don't care about that stuff - my thing is, however we go about winning a championship, let's do it together."

Doesnt this quote completely blow out of the water the argument that Penny Hardaway NEEDS to start to be effective, that sitting for long stretches causes him to less effective???

I mean, if Hardaway himself doesnt feel that starting is imperative for him to be effective and to help this team, then we can simply assume at this point that Hardaway just aint got it.

You found the joke above funny. I did to. What I also find funny is that in your attempt to disprove Elindholm's point, you sunk your own that Penny needs to start. Nice work.
 

elindholm

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Hardaway specifically said ...

Throughout his career, Hardaway has specifically said many things. Most of them have turned out to be false.

What are you saying, that he purposely misses shots to make his team suffer?

No, that he brings less than his best effort and concentration. I think we all suspect that, if suddenly inserted into the starting lineup, Hardaway will respond with at least a couple of big games. Now: ask yourself, "Why?" And more specifically, "Why aren't those big games coming from the bench?"

I've got news for you. The reason Hardaway's minutes are so limited right now isn't because the organization is in love with Joe Johnson or Casey Jacobsen. It's because Hardaway has been playing terribly. You're all down on Johnson because of his low shooting percentage. That's valid, but Hardaway's isn't much higher, and he is committing fouls and turnovers a lot more frequently. And we won't even talk about defense.

I guess, of course, if you want to talk about professionalism, or lack thereof, we should mention Joe Johnson.

I'll give you that. Johnson's behavior, if it can be called that, is also unacceptable. But didn't your mother teach you that "two wrongs don't make a right"?

We dont' want to lose Joe Johnson forever, so we start him, no matter the cost.

Actually, I think it would be okay if the Suns gave up on Joe Johnson around the All-Star break, as I've said before. But the only reason to bench him in favor of Hardaway right now is that Hardaway "might" start playing better if given starter's minutes. That's just unfair. Based on their level of play right now, Johnson should still be the starter, because while Johnson is bad, Hardaway is worse. Once Hardaway can win the starting job -- instead of having Johnson merely lose it -- then I'd support a switch. And if that means giving up on Johnson forever, that would be okay with me, because I do agree with you that he should be able to handle it.
 

Joe Mama

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I have to admit that I really confused with my feelings on this matter. Every time I save Penny Hardaway should start I am coming up with reasons he should not. So here are some random thoughts on this topic. Take what you want from them.

1. While I don't believe Penny Hardaway is necessarily sabotaging the team I do believe he is putting forth a less than full effort. Eric was right about his playing time. Hardaway is not playing fewer minutes because there is some effort to minimize his playing time. It's because he looks like garbage when he's out there.

2. I do believe that Penny Hardaway would be better in the starting lineup. I think he would play better with the starters because they are better players. As mentioned above I believe he would also put forth a better effort. Right or wrong I think the team would probably be better if he started.

3. Casey Jacobsen has looked neither good nor bad this season overall. Don't get me wrong. He's had some good stretches and bad stretches, but overall he's just taken up minutes. Somehow he needs to do a better job of getting open for shots. Yes, I actually want him to be shooting more. So far, in the minutes for both of them , Casey Jacobsen has outplayed Penny Hardaway.

4. Let's make a big assumption and suppose that Penny Hardaway would shoot 44% in the starting lineup. That's 10% better than Joe Johnson is shooting right now. I figure and increased shooting percentage would translate into 2-4 more points per game for the Phoenix Suns. That would be a faith difference for the Phoenix Suns so far this season. However with the difference in offensive output make up for the decrease in defense? I mean even the sickest of Hardaway lovers have got to admit that Joe Johnson is a A MUCH better defender than Penny Hardaway.

Joe Mama
 

Chaplin

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Originally posted by elindholm

Actually, I think it would be okay if the Suns gave up on Joe Johnson around the All-Star break, as I've said before. But the only reason to bench him in favor of Hardaway right now is that Hardaway "might" start playing better if given starter's minutes. That's just unfair. Based on their level of play right now, Johnson should still be the starter, because while Johnson is bad, Hardaway is worse. Once Hardaway can win the starting job -- instead of having Johnson merely lose it -- then I'd support a switch. And if that means giving up on Johnson forever, that would be okay with me, because I do agree with you that he should be able to handle it.

And how do you propose to have Penny even have a chance to beat out JJ for the starting job? I understand your feelings, but you seem to be living in a fantasy world where both guys are averaging 35 minutes per game. They're not! I know you're down on Penny, but is it really his fault?
 

matt_whitlock

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Actually, I think it would be okay if the Suns gave up on Joe Johnson around the All-Star break, as I've said before. But the only reason to bench him in favor of Hardaway right now is that Hardaway "might" start playing better if given starter's minutes. That's just unfair.

What is this "unfair" garbage? I mean, in the business world, maybe I could see where you're coming from. I'd never wanted to be demoted or have some one promoted over me if I thought I deserved the job and he did not. However, this is a basketball TEAM. If Joe Johnson wants to win, he should be willing to do whatever it takes to win. When you join a team, I believe you are essentially agreeing to, if necessary, allow your own selfish desires to be put on the back burner if it will benefit the team. If Joe Johnson is a total team player, I would honestly think that if FJ went to him and told him we are going to try starting Penny for a little while to see if it helps, that JJ would be totally up for it. Even a guy totally devoid of human emotions like JJ has to be getting sick of the way the Suns are playing. If JJ's a team player, it's unfair to him to make him suffer through these losses.

On the contrary, if Joe feels his starting is more important than the team's winning, do we really want him on the team? Is developing Joe Johnson, in effect, merely developing Joe Johnson's ego?

If you want to talk about unfair though, let's talk about how Penny has seemingly been spited. Three times Joe Johnson has been handed the starting position on a silver platter. Twice Penny has proved he is deserving of that starting spot, and twice Frank Johnson has completely disregarded all of Penny's efforts and all of his contributions to this team, and put Penny back on the bench. That's unfair. Joe Johnson being presented with a gold-boardered starting position after doing nothing to earn it, and then losing it after he shoots 30% from the field isn't unfair, it's justice.
 

elindholm

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What is this "unfair" garbage? (Long diatribe deleted)

I meant unfair to the team, not to Joe Johnson. It's unfair to the organization for one player to dictate how everything is run.

Anyway, for now, the question is moot. Johnson played quite well as a starter, Hardaway was another no-show, and the Suns lost as usual.
 

cheng

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How come is always JJ vs Penny?

We can not really blame everything on JJ. He is just not ready and he does play hard. It is FJ's decision to start him.

And how can a player who plays 15 mins a game dictate the whole team? You think Penny plays worse and has done nothing to win the job back, fine. Don't start him either, but maybe try Marion at 2 and start Zarko at 3.
 

matt_whitlock

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Don't start him either, but maybe try Marion at 2 and start Zarko at 3.

What has Zarko done to deserve the spot? How many points does he have in his NBA career? 8?

Give Zarko minutes when Marion is out there doing nothing. We don't need to take JJ out of the starting lineup to start Zarko, that's for sure.

Starting Penny doesn't really have anythign to do with JJ, fundementally. It's just 3-6 isn't gonna cut it, and if we're going to change anything, we might as well go back to something that's worked in the past. Bringing Bo Outlaw off the bench isn't gonna do it for us, so we put Penny back in the starting lineup. If that doesn't work, we go from there, but at this point something's gotta give.
 

matt_whitlock

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Anyway, for now, the question is moot. Johnson played quite well as a starter, Hardaway was another no-show, and the Suns lost as usual.

Wasn't that expected? After two bad games, he was due for another ok one. Hence, JJ comes in, shoots a good percentage, but only grabs 3 rebounds, hands out 1 assist and turns the ball over 3 times, and still picks up 6 fouls.

Brilliant!
 

Joe Mama

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Originally posted by matt_whitlock
Wasn't that expected? After two bad games, he was due for another ok one. Hence, JJ comes in, shoots a good percentage, but only grabs 3 rebounds, hands out 1 assist and turns the ball over 3 times, and still picks up 6 fouls.

Brilliant!

Don't tell me you are going to complain because Joe Johnson didn't have a great all-around game Saturday. He shot the ball well. That's what we really wanted more than anything.

The only thing that really bothered me was the turnovers. He did handle the ball much of the time he was playing though. 3 turnovers is high, but it's not disastrous. Heck, your beloved Penny Hardaway turned the ball over two times in 12 minutes against Houston the other night.

Joe Johnson picked up a couple of those fouls trying to guard bigger players because the Suns had gone with a small lineup.

Joe Mama
 

matt_whitlock

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Joe Johnson picked up a couple of those fouls trying to guard bigger players because the Suns had gone with a small lineup.

I know, I said in the Pistons thread that this was pretty much Frank Johnson's fault. I mean, JJ is finally shooting well in a game and for some reason he ends up defending downlow on Memet Okur when he already has 2 fouls.

I really don't care if JJ has a good game just because I want JJ to have a good game so he can go home a happy little child, but if he could help us win the game, you gotta keep him on the court.

Of course, many people blamed this on Frank Johnson, failing to realize that FJ never put Joe on Okur. However, JJ got got bumped off his normal man and ended up downlow on Memet, so he established position and called for the ball on the mismatch. Normally the argument would now be that, considering JJ was only at Okur's elbow, he needed to realize that he couldnt' just swipe at his arm and risk picking up a foul because we needed him on the court. Instead of playing smart, however, he took a swipe at Okur's elbow and went to the bench.

But hey, JJ's still young.
 

elindholm

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Of course, many people blamed this on Frank Johnson, failing to realize that FJ never put Joe on Okur.

I'm not so sure about that. The Suns' lineup at the time had Marion and Johnson at the two forward spots; the Pistons had Okur at PF and another "big" (Campbell, I think) at center. So if the Suns' center, whoever it was (Voksuhl?), had to guard the other Detroit big, that left either Johnson or Marion on Okur. Of the two, Johnson was probably the better choice. But the point is, given the lineups, it was inevitable that the Suns were going to be facing a terrible mismatch at one of the power positions.
 

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