Game Thread: Suns vs. Rockets

[Krangodnzr]

Is it just me, or does Matt_Whitlock sound just like TheRealHardaway?

 

[elindholm]

Yeah, it's the same guy over and over. He keeps losing patience with us heathens who don't worship at the First Church of Penny, and then he says something really revolting and obscene, so he gets banned. And then he comes back trying to pretend he's a new person.

This is at least the fourth incarnation in the past year. I've lost count by now.

 

[Chaplin]

I got an idea--if Tracy really wants out of Orlando, let's trade Shawn and JJ for him!

 

[Joe Mama]

Originally posted by Chaplin
I got an idea--if Tracy really wants out of Orlando, let's trade Shawn and JJ for him!

Hell, I would trade Marbury, Joe Johnson, and draft picks to get Tracy McGrady. That would be awesome. Unfortunately it's not going to happen, but who says we can't dream.

Joe Mama

 

[elindholm]

I would trade Joe Johnson, draft picks, and Frank Johnson to get Doc Rivers.

 

[creed]

I dont want to trade Marbury or Marion. Fact is the Suns need to play smarter and be better utilized. We need a better coach to get the most out of what we got...because what we have is quite a bit by most teams standards. We arn't lacking talent...we're laking a team ball concept. And I dont think McGrady does anything to add to the playing as a team kind of thing.

 

[fordronken]

Originally posted by creed
I dont want to trade Marbury or Marion. Fact is the Suns need to play smarter and be better utilized. We need a better coach to get the most out of what we got...because what we have is quite a bit by most teams standards. We arn't lacking talent...we're laking a team ball concept. And I dont think McGrady does anything to add to the playing as a team kind of thing.

Maybe he can hit an open jump shot.

 

[creed]

If McGrady, Marbury, Amare where on the same team I doubt there would be enough ball to go around.

 

[PhiLLmattiC]

Penny only played 12 minutes last game and 16 the game before. Theres not much you can do in that time. Its not even about resting time he's just not playing much at all.

 

[Chaplin]

Originally posted by creed
If McGrady, Marbury, Amare where on the same team I doubt there would be enough ball to go around.

Perhaps, but there probably wouldn't be enough championships to go around either.

 

[matt_whitlock]

Okay, then let's look at this realistically.

JJ played 43 minutes last night.

Penny played 12.

Is JJ really 4 TIMES BETTER THAN Penny Hardaway? I know it's hard to judge like that, but realistically..

Maybe I'm stupid. Maybe I'm old fashion. But let's use a little inductive reasoning here, taking little specific facts, and trying to form a general opinion:

1. Saying Joe Johnson's shooting is horrendous is unfair to the word "horrendous". It gives it a bad name.

2. In 1999-2000, the Suns were 42-18 with Penny Hardaway in the lineup, with only the Lakers having a better winning percentage, and 11-11 without him. .500 wouldn't have got them into the playoffs.

3. Penny's not the same player that he was in 2000? Definately not. So let's compare apples to apples here. Last year, Penny played in 58 games. Here's the breakdown:

In games with Penny off the bench, we were 3-5. As an aside, we're 3-5 right now. Sound familiar?

In games the Suns played without Penny, we went 10-14. Again, right now if we keep playing the way we have been, we'll be 9-15 over a span of 24 gams. Very similar.

Penny played 50 games as a starter last season. He wasn't spectacular in those games. He averaged about 11 points, 4.5 assists and rebounds, 1.5 steals, 2 turnovers. However, in those 50 games, this team went 31-19. We were 31-17 before we clinched the our playoff berth and rested for the last 2 games of the season. That's a .650 winning percentage.

4. If you watched the Suns last year, you know even that great disparity in records with Penny and without doesn't even tell the whole story. Our chemistry was at best when Penny was a starter. Each time, at the beginning of the season, and then when Penny came back from his thumb injury, it took about 5 games for the Suns to really get into a groove, and after that the Suns were without a doubt one of the best teams in the league. In December, the Suns had a span of 10 games where they were 9-1. In April to finish the regular season, the the Suns went 6-1 before we clinched. The Suns were exciting, and as an opposing team you DID NOT want to come into America West Arena. We were tough! With Joe Johnson starting, the Suns were.. well, you've seen us the past 8 games, so I really don't need to describe it.

5. I'd just like to reiterate, with Penny on the bench last year the Suns were 3-5. This year, the Suns are 3-5. Why should we expect anything different than that the rest of the season?

So there are 5 specific, inarguable facts I have just laid before you. You could absolutely hate Penny Hardaway, but to deny what is before you would be pure blindness. It's not about me being a Penny fan, or worshipping the ground he walks on. I can see his game has diminshed since his all-NBA days, but I can also see that the Suns' number of wins have diminshed drastically, even more drastically than Penny's game, when Joe Johnson is a starter.

Now you could be content with Penny as a 10th man on this team. You could call me a mindless Penny-worshipper and be content with trying to thrust greatness onto someone who, for whatever reason, is unable to receive it. But you must also be content with a 3-5 team, a 9-15 team, a 31-51 team. I, however, am not, and as long as this is the case, I'm going to voice my opinion. You may not like it, and I'm sorry for that, but unfortunately that's the way it is.

 

[SirStefan32]

I think it's time to put Penny in the starting lineup, see how it goes, and then go from there. He simply can not play off the bench. Let him start, and then see what happens. If he still stinks, put JJ back in.

I don't know guys, but the Suns are not fun to watch like they were last year. Somebody needs to smck each and every one of them, tell them to pull their heads out of their asses and play ball.

 

[PhiLLmattiC]

I wish there was a way top play both joe johnson and penny at the same time more often without compromising too much. It seems that JJ plays better with Penny from what I've seen in a few games this year and the playoffs last year. Maybe FJ should consider sitting shawn marion a few more minutes just to run jj at sf or sitting steph for a little longer to try a bigger backcourt. I've seen him try it but maybe he should do it a little more often. Casey jacobsen is useless. Well atleast i think he is. they should consider trading him but im not sure who would want him except for the fact that he's young and he MAY have potential.

 

[Joe Mama]

I really have a hard time believing that show Johnson's confidence would be shattered if Frank Johnson just told him the truth. FJ should just say , "we want to start Penny Hardaway because we need to get more out of him, and he's better as a starter. We want your energy and defense off the bench, and your minutes will not really suffer."

Take five minutes from Joe Johnson and five minutes from Casey Jacobsen. I really think the team would be better that way.

BTW the argument Frank Johnson used to bring Hardaway off the bench was that he liked Hardaway's chemistry with Zarko. Have we even seen these two and a lineup together? If so, it could not have been for more than a few minutes and all eight games put together.

At least we haven't seen Tom Gugliotta.

Joe Mama

 

[NDSunsfan]

I think last night's game was a game for Penny to get more minutes. The games the Suns have pretty good energy (last night) is a good time to bring Penny in. He doesn't bring a lot of energy but plays pretty smart. Those games where the Suns look asleep (Atlanta/Utah) Penny isn't a lot of help. He plays slow and when the rest of the team is playing slow, and that's not a good combination.

I like JJ. I sort of like Penny. But Penny getting more minutes is a necessity in my opinion. I'm not saying it has to be at the expense of JJ, but if it is so be it. He needs it to at least get a little rhythm. Every player needs more than 3 or 4 minutes here and there. Same thing with Zarko.

Is it just me or do the Suns fall apart offensively in the 4th qtr of close games? They run an OK offense for 40 minutes, then end up standing around the last 8 mins. Even Calvin Murphy commented on how the Suns were taking a lot of jump shots in the 4th qtr last night. Not a great thing for a bad shooting team.

As far as the Marbs/Amare rift, I wouldn't blame Steph. Amare's become a black hole for basketballs. Personally, I don't buy the conflict. I would think players have opinions all the time, doesn't mean they hate each other. But I think Amare has to be more of a team guy in the flow of the offense.

I like the Rockets play by play guys. Murphy is a bit annoying, but they seem like they have fun.

Brad

 

[jbeecham]

Penny Hardaway doesn't deserve to start. Right now he doesn't deserve to play because he's playing so poorly when he's on the floor. If he really wants to get more time then he needs to earn it by playing well. If he can't play well off the bench then he doesn't get to play. If he can't learn how to be a bench player they give Casey his minutes.

 

[creed]

I'm really sick of this Penny stuff. Last season when he started and played poorly then Penny ppl would say "He's not getting enough minutes" or "Penny needs to play at the end in the fourth quarter". There is always some reason for Pennys failures....some excuse. It's either he's too cold, too sore, too stupid...I dont know. I figure he's too washed up and I see it everytime he plays. It's absolutely an insult to anyones intelligence to give Penny even more time considering he's not worthy of the time he gets. We shouldnt reward his bad play. I don't even want to see his face on this team to be totally honest about it. Bury that washout on the end of the bench and dont let him play at all! Penny you come out strong or don't come out at all!!

 

[jbeecham]

Originally posted by creed
I'm really sick of this Penny stuff. Last season when he started and played poorly then Penny ppl would say "He's not getting enough minutes" or "Penny needs to play at the end in the fourth quarter". There is always some reason for Pennys failures....some excuse. It's either he's too cold, too sore, too stupid...I dont know. I figure he's too washed up and I see it everytime he plays. It's absolutely an insult to anyones intelligence to give Penny even more time considering he's not worthy of the time he gets. We shouldnt reward his bad play. I don't even want to see his face on this team to be totally honest about it. Bury that washout on the end of the bench and dont let him play at all! Penny you come out strong or don't come out at all!!

Exactly, and I'm tired of the JJ bashing. Yeah his shooting isn't where it needs to be, but he does so many other things. He's the best defender on the team. He's got long arms and tips a lot of passes that turn into steals for other people and he gets some steals himself. He rebounds and gets assists and he's a hell of a lot more aggressive on offense. I've seen him dunk more this season that he has in the last 2 years combined (and goes up strong in general even when not dunking). People can hate him all that they want because he's not shooting 45%, but everyone is shooting poorly. Amare is shooting 41.7% this year which is down from 47.2% last season. Marion is shooting 43.8% this season which is down from 45.2% last year. Penny is shooting 38% which is down from 44.7% last year (yeah yeah i know, blame it on the lack of playing time......blah blah). For all the people bashing Casey, he's shooting 50% right now (11-22) and that includes being 4-13 from 3pt land, take those out and he's 7-9 from 2pt land, which is 77.8%.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

Creed, JBeecham

I finally found 2 posts that agree with me. I feel all warm inside.

Andy

 

[Wally]

Originally posted by Joe Mama
If you remember when they announced that Joe Johnson would be starting I said I did not like it because Hardaway looks like trash coming off the bench. I really do not understand why the Phoenix Suns seem so intent on making Joe Johnson a starter in the Hardaway a sixth man.

I know I'm contradicting myself here, but it won't be the first time... nor the last. I am now officially in the "start Penny Hardaway" corner. They can still give Joe Johnson significant minutes. This is a move about getting more out of Penny Hardaway. If Hardaway doesn't shoot the ball any better than Joe Johnson I don't know what can be done.

I worry about Hardaway's defense or lack thereof though.

I'm still not really worried about this team. The only game they've lost badly was the Utah game, and they have a nice homestretch coming. I think they will beat Detroit tomorrow.

Joe Mama

Good job putting thing in perspective, Joe. I woul like to add that Barbosa's play has been encouraging and I'm looking forward to seeing more of him (that probably means he's going to be on the bench).

Like a broken record..... the only worry I have and have always had is the ability (or lack thereof) of the coaching. It is totally inexcusable that this group of players can not play as a team, can not figure out how to score against a zone, and it certainly isn't the players fault for the screwy offense and absurd substitution patterns. Maybe BC should give coaching a go... I'm beginning to feel like anything different would be good because this is getting to be just like that movie "Groundhog Day".

 

[PhiLLmattiC]

Honestly, he does look slow and terrible on defense. I'm a huge fan but I was really disappointed in what I saw. Maybe he should consider keeping warm on an excercise bike instead of sitting on the bench. If I was him i would also try to exhibit a little more energy showing that I actually want to be out there. However You guys have to admit 12, 16, 16 the last few games is just not enough for a player of his caliber. How can you have a former all star rotting on your bench, while your starters are showing the can't get the job done. Its also funny how you guys totally forgot about the impact he had last year. It seems your just ignoring the facts. Its one thing to expect him to contribute consistently off the bench but he's not even getting consistent minutes. He's not the only one. Your beloved lil jake is starting to lose minutes also. I also think Googs deserves to play. He hasn't played in years and people excepted him to be the old G. He looked ok out there when i saw him but I think he needs more time to get accustomed to playing again. Oh yeah CJ sux.

 

[creed]

"How can you have a former all star rotting on your bench"


We supposed to watch Penny rot on the floor instead for the whole world to see? Either case he's rotting away so I'd rather not see it thanks. He's a constant reminder of the Suns getting ripped off 86 million...I'm sure Jerry had a nightmare or two already about the guy.

And Penny didn't save us last year...Show me a bunch of stats where he came up big. The best that can be said of Penny is sometimes he was adequate in between his lousy shooting and turnovers. Thats not exactly an endorsement of his play. The only reason he was in there is we were hard of for players....hard up for a bench.

I say we use Barbosa and Casey more. Barbosa can use the experience and we might see some good things. And Casey even looks better than Penny! Not by much but he still looks better. At least with the younger players have have hope to improve where with Penny he is washed up completely.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

"How can you have a former all star rotting on your bench"


Because he is a former allstar.

I didnt see where the quote came from, but I will assume it is in respect to penny.

Since googs was an allstar should he be playing 30 mpg?

 

[elindholm]

Isn't Shawn Kemp available? He's a former All-Star too.

 

[Chris_Sanders]

Game 1: 2002

40 minutes 16 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists.

Next start 5 games later:

20 points, 7 rebounds, 6 assists

Following Game:

10 points (4-8 from the field), 7 rebounds, 7 assists

After that

13 points (4-9), 6 rebounds, 7 assists

I only looked at Penny's first four starts last year. He shot over 50% as a starter and averaged 15 points, 7 rebounds, and most importantly 7 assists a game.

When Penny comes off the bench, he is looking for his shot too much because that is the job that FJ wants him to do. To be that heater off the bench. When he starts, he lets the game come to him more.

Do you require more "stats"? Frankly, you could spend some of your time looking this up yourself instead of wasting mine.