Gameday thread 49ers at Cardinals 10-1-17

[WisconsinCard]

Looking back at all these posts during the OT makes me lol

I don't know how you guys do it while watching the games, our Cardiac Cardinal endings repeatedly are enough to kill a man. Damn peeps you guys have a thousand lives posting & watching thru all the craziness.

Loved the ending & thanks Larry Legend for adding more stories to your fabulous lore & Carson for pulling it out

See you in Philly Big Mike woohoo

We'll be there brotha...and look forward to seeing you and your better half.

 

[WisconsinCard]

If you really believe this, if you really want the Cardinals to lose the rest of their games, then put your money where your mouth is, go to the games and scream your lungs out when the Cardinals are on offense, root for Palmer to get sacked on every pass play and for every run to get stuffed, for Fitz to drop every pass, and when the Cardinals are on D, root silently for them to give up a TD on every drive. Then you can really experience the joy of finally, for the first time in franchise history, getting the #1 draft pick. Won't that be exciting!

Yeah sure we can all see the benefit of having a higher draft pick. But my philosophy is that if you root for your team to lose, you deserve a loser.

Everything that's good about sports, everything that's worth watching and rooting for, revolves around the belief that every player should be going all out on every play to try to win. I don't even see the point of watching if you don't feel the same way.

#sad

...dave

Wow, couldn't have said it better then that. This sums it up for me.

 

[WisconsinCard]

"Plenty of games" ??? I'm going to pretend that you didn't say that in anything but jest. When you need a QBOTF, and are hoping to draft one, EVERY SINGLE LOSS matters. They can't make this one up later.

This is a team that's lost by double digits twice and beat two bad teams in OT, looking ugly while doing so. I don't know what to tell you any longer because I know nothing will get through your delusion or philosophical outlook.

I'm happy for you that you're happy.

If you think it's delusional to root for your team to win, I don't know what to tell you. The jest was in part because you even said you were happy it was Larry and that you couldn't be angry. But of course 5 minutes later you come back and call be delusional. I personally think you don't want us to loose, it's just a mechanism you employ to protect your ego, so when I loose you say "oh I wanted them too". JMHO, and now back to winning football games.

 

[Ronin]

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

 

[Ronin]

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

 

[Ronin]

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

 

[Ronin]

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Shortsighted? Maybe. But the day i root for my team to lose, is the day i stop rooting for anything.

...dave

You are WAY too smart not to understand our argument Smith.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

If you really believe this, if you really want the Cardinals to lose the rest of their games, then put your money where your mouth is, go to the games and scream your lungs out when the Cardinals are on offense, root for Palmer to get sacked on every pass play and for every run to get stuffed, for Fitz to drop every pass, and when the Cardinals are on D, root silently for them to give up a TD on every drive. Then you can really experience the joy of finally, for the first time in franchise history, getting the #1 draft pick. Won't that be exciting!

Yeah sure we can all see the benefit of having a higher draft pick. But my philosophy is that if you root for your team to lose, you deserve a loser.

Everything that's good about sports, everything that's worth watching and rooting for, revolves around the belief that every player should be going all out on every play to try to win. I don't even see the point of watching if you don't feel the same way.

#sad

...dave

If you really believe this, if you really want the Cardinals to lose the rest of their games, then put your money where your mouth is, go to the games and scream your lungs out when the Cardinals are on offense, root for Palmer to get sacked on every pass play and for every run to get stuffed, for Fitz to drop every pass, and when the Cardinals are on D, root silently for them to give up a TD on every drive. Then you can really experience the joy of finally, for the first time in franchise history, getting the #1 draft pick. Won't that be exciting!

Yeah sure we can all see the benefit of having a higher draft pick. But my philosophy is that if you root for your team to lose, you deserve a loser.

Everything that's good about sports, everything that's worth watching and rooting for, revolves around the belief that every player should be going all out on every play to try to win. I don't even see the point of watching if you don't feel the same way.

#sad

...dave

For one of the smartest people I know this opinion of yours is incredibly dumb. If you can't see the merit of increasing your probability of success in the future by sucking in the present I don't know what to tell you.

I openly rooted for the Phoenix Suns to suck last year. They did. We were rewarded with Josh Jackson. We wouldn't have gotten him if we didn't suck. If he turns out to be a difference maker for a decade than losing in an already awful season was 100% worth it to me, even if those judging me for rooting for a tank won't admit I was right and enjoy his play as well. They can be smug in being a "pure" (yeah right) fan. I'll be smug in having been right.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

If you think it's delusional to root for your team to win, I don't know what to tell you. The jest was in part because you even said you were happy it was Larry and that you couldn't be angry. But of course 5 minutes later you come back and call be delusional. I personally think you don't want us to loose, it's just a mechanism you employ to protect your ego, so when I loose you say "oh I wanted them too". JMHO, and now back to winning football games.

Haha no. I honestly don't have a big ego. Self confidence? In spades. But my ego isn't involved. I'm not one to say "told you so." All those years where Cheese and I were battered on this board for being realists when we sucked I never came back at the end of a season and said "see I told you we sucked!"

The honest truth is in a macro sense I don't want us to lose ever again. But if I think 14 losses this year will ensure more wins, more playoffs, and maybe a shot at a Super Bowl over the next 10+ years you bet I want to lose those 14 games. What about that can't you understand?

 

[Cheesebeef]

Haha no. I honestly don't have a big ego. Self confidence? In spades. But my ego isn't involved. I'm not one to say "told you so." All those years where Cheese and I were battered on this board for being realists when we sucked I never came back at the end of a season and said "see I told you we sucked!"

The honest truth is in a macro sense I don't want us to lose ever again. But if I think 14 losses this year will ensure more wins, more playoffs, and maybe a shot at a Super Bowl over the next 10+ years you bet I want to lose those 14 games. What about that can't you understand?

trust me, @WisconsinCard he really wants them to lose right now. The idea that he's only saying this because of ego doesn't truly understand the fandom Ouchie and I have. Which is fine... I get that some people love ANY WIN, ANY TIME. I don't understand it... but I don't doubt the sincerity of the fandom. The same is true here for us.

 

[daves]

For one of the smartest people I know this opinion of yours is incredibly dumb. If you can't see the merit of increasing your probability of success in the future by sucking in the present I don't know what to tell you.

Oh i think we ALL see the logic that the team may benefit in the long term from losing in the short term. But then you should follow it to its logical conclusion and root against them as hard as you rooted for them in the NFC Championship game and at the Super Bowl. Passion for sports doesn't have anything to do with logic for me. After all, what difference does it make in my life whether the Cardinals win or lose? Why should i even be a Cardinals fan, having grown up in Pennsylvania? I don't know, but i know that when i was 7 years old i ran a mile to the drug store every Thursday when Pro Football Weekly came out, to loiter and read about how the Cardinals lost again each week, and convince myself that next week for sure they'd win!

If you can turn off your joy at seeing Fitz catch the game winning TD, then you should be able to heartily make noise and cheer for a fumble, penalty, or sack on every play when the Cardinals are on offense. I can't do that. I LOVED the McCown to Poole TD in 2003. How could you not love that?!?

Might the Cardinals have got Eli Manning or Rivers had they lost? Maybe. Would either one of those guys have played for the Cardinals? Who knows? Would the Cardinals have won a Super Bowl since then with Rivers instead of Fitz? Who knows! But i enjoyed being a fan of a team that went all-out to win on every play, DAMN THE CONSEQUENCES.

I would never be able to enjoy rooting for the Cardinals to lose, or rooting for a coach who could coach to lose, or players who could play to lose. I think you do long-term damage to the franchise and medium-term damage to the locker room if you don't play to win. Nobody wants to play for a loser. How are you going to tell the players to bust their asses all week to prepare, then not go all-out to win? Players at the end of their careers have nothing to play for but to know that they left it all on the field, every play. Players earlier in their career want to put the best possible play on film.

If you don't feel that way, then you're just a different kind of fan than i am, and that's fine! The only common ground we may have is that once the playoffs are out of reach, i think the GM needs to instruct the coach to put in younger players to help evaluate them and get them experience for next year. They may not give the team the best chance of winning each game, but at least the guys on the field will still be going all-out to win.

As Herm Edwards said, you play to win the game. YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME! If you play to lose, you take all the joy out of it for me as a fan. No thanks. Play to win, and at the end of the season, let the chips fall how they may as regards the draft and the future.

...dave

 

[daves]

They can be smug in being a "pure" (yeah right) fan. I'll be smug in having been right.

Haha no. I honestly don't have a big ego. Self confidence? In spades. But my ego isn't involved. I'm not one to say "told you so."

Haha, no you won't say "I told you so" (although you kinda just did regarding being a darksider during the losing years)... but you'll be smug in having been right. :-D

'Sall good, man.

...dave

 

[WisconsinCard]

Haha no. I honestly don't have a big ego. Self confidence? In spades. But my ego isn't involved. I'm not one to say "told you so." All those years where Cheese and I were battered on this board for being realists when we sucked I never came back at the end of a season and said "see I told you we sucked!"

The honest truth is in a macro sense I don't want us to lose ever again. But if I think 14 losses this year will ensure more wins, more playoffs, and maybe a shot at a Super Bowl over the next 10+ years you bet I want to lose those 14 games. What about that can't you understand?

How many years have we lost and had top five picks? How many time did we come back next year and get "more wins" and "playoff appearances"? You have every right to root how you see fit, if you ant us to loose well good for you, but I'll say Larry, Carson, and I deserve better. I agree with Daves, that if we are out of it mathematically then it's time to play the young guys to see what we have for the future.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Haha, no you won't say "I told you so" (although you kinda just did regarding being a darksider during the losing years)... but you'll be smug in having been right. :-D

'Sall good, man.

...dave

Smug doesn't have to be rubbing someone's nose in it.

And my comments about being right years ago wasn't a told you so. If I wanted that credit I'd have been on people's faces every year. I wasn't. I may have argued that I was a realist but it was never an I told you so.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

How many years have we lost and had top five picks? How many time did we come back next year and get "more wins" and "playoff appearances"? You have every right to root how you see fit, if you ant us to loose well good for you, but I'll say Larry, Carson, and I deserve better. I agree with Daves, that if we are out of it mathematically then it's time to play the young guys to see what we have for the future.

It can be argued that this team never reaches the Super Bowl without being bad enough to draft Fitz, Dansby, and 90 with those high picks earned for being bad enough to pick top 3 in each round. I think that's a good indicator of what I wish for when I know we have a DREADFUL (not mediocre, but DREADFUL) team this season. With little current young upside for the future.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Oh i think we ALL see the logic that the team may benefit in the long term from losing in the short term. But then you should follow it to its logical conclusion and root against them as hard as you rooted for them in the NFC Championship game and at the Super Bowl. Passion for sports doesn't have anything to do with logic for me. After all, what difference does it make in my life whether the Cardinals win or lose? Why should i even be a Cardinals fan, having grown up in Pennsylvania? I don't know, but i know that when i was 7 years old i ran a mile to the drug store every Thursday when Pro Football Weekly came out, to loiter and read about how the Cardinals lost again each week, and convince myself that next week for sure they'd win!

If you can turn off your joy at seeing Fitz catch the game winning TD, then you should be able to heartily make noise and cheer for a fumble, penalty, or sack on every play when the Cardinals are on offense. I can't do that. I LOVED the McCown to Poole TD in 2003. How could you not love that?!?

Might the Cardinals have got Eli Manning or Rivers had they lost? Maybe. Would either one of those guys have played for the Cardinals? Who knows? Would the Cardinals have won a Super Bowl since then with Rivers instead of Fitz? Who knows! But i enjoyed being a fan of a team that went all-out to win on every play, DAMN THE CONSEQUENCES.

I would never be able to enjoy rooting for the Cardinals to lose, or rooting for a coach who could coach to lose, or players who could play to lose. I think you do long-term damage to the franchise and medium-term damage to the locker room if you don't play to win. Nobody wants to play for a loser. How are you going to tell the players to bust their asses all week to prepare, then not go all-out to win? Players at the end of their careers have nothing to play for but to know that they left it all on the field, every play. Players earlier in their career want to put the best possible play on film.

If you don't feel that way, then you're just a different kind of fan than i am, and that's fine! The only common ground we may have is that once the playoffs are out of reach, i think the GM needs to instruct the coach to put in younger players to help evaluate them and get them experience for next year. They may not give the team the best chance of winning each game, but at least the guys on the field will still be going all-out to win.

As Herm Edwards said, you play to win the game. YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME! If you play to lose, you take all the joy out of it for me as a fan. No thanks. Play to win, and at the end of the season, let the chips fall how they may as regards the draft and the future.

...dave

You don't get it. I would never tell a coach or player to purposefully lose and wouldn't expect them to do so. Unless there's a QBOTF at stake (and even then I wouldn't expect anyone to purposefully lose). However I will lament meaningless wins that inhibit our ability to get better.

 

[daves]

You don't get it. I would never tell a coach or player to purposefully lose and wouldn't expect them to do so. Unless there's a QBOTF at stake (and even then I wouldn't expect anyone to purposefully lose). However I will lament meaningless wins that inhibit our ability to get better.

Oh i get it, i just don't share your perspective.

What good did it do the Browns to finish in last place 15 of the last 18 years?

Even the 2011 Colts won 2 of their last three games, and only got the #1 draft pick via tie-breaker. So they sucked for Luck, and what has it got them? After 6 years, no playoff wins, a franchise QB who has been battered so much that he may never be the same again, and certainly no guarantee of a Super Bowl win.

For the Cardinals this year, each incremental loss guarantees nothing. 1-2 spots in the draft should not prevent them from getting the QB they want - it might just cost slightly more draft capital to get him. And can we even be sure who's the best QB in the crop anyway? And does taking a gamble on say Darnold + a couple high-priced free agents at other positions, really give them a better shot at a Super Bowl win than say, Alex Smith + a couple high draft picks at other positions? Who knows?!

All we are guaranteed is today. And today, i want to see the Cardinals win every time. Ten years from now, we won't remember a 6-10 season any more fondly than a 5-11 season, but on that day when the Cardinals fight their asses off despite the age, injuries, and all the other weaknesses they have now, and win a game you want them to lose, i will be happy.

In 2014, when the Cardinals had so many injuries but kept on winning anyway, when Palmer was hurt, then Stanton was hurt, and Ryan Freaking Lindley started in the playoffs, we all knew they had zero chance at winning a Super Bowl. But i'm still glad they got into the playoffs and gave it their best shot, rather than losing out as soon as Palmer went down. Did it benefit them in the long run? No. But i enjoyed every one of those wins.

Just the way i'm wired, i guess.

...dave

 

[Cheesebeef]

Oh i get it, i just don't share your perspective.

What good did it do the Browns to finish in last place 15 of the last 18 years?

Even the 2011 Colts won 2 of their last three games, and only got the #1 draft pick via tie-breaker. So they sucked for Luck, and what has it got them? After 6 years, no playoff wins, a franchise QB who has been battered so much that he may never be the same again, and certainly no guarantee of a Super Bowl win.

For the Cardinals this year, each incremental loss guarantees nothing. 1-2 spots in the draft should not prevent them from getting the QB they want - it might just cost slightly more draft capital to get him. And can we even be sure who's the best QB in the crop anyway? And does taking a gamble on say Darnold + a couple high-priced free agents at other positions, really give them a better shot at a Super Bowl win than say, Alex Smith + a couple high draft picks at other positions? Who knows?!

All we are guaranteed is today. And today, i want to see the Cardinals win every time. Ten years from now, we won't remember a 6-10 season any more fondly than a 5-11 season, but on that day when the Cardinals fight their asses off despite the age, injuries, and all the other weaknesses they have now, and win a game you want them to lose, i will be happy.

In 2014, when the Cardinals had so many injuries but kept on winning anyway, when Palmer was hurt, then Stanton was hurt, and Ryan Freaking Lindley started in the playoffs, we all knew they had zero chance at winning a Super Bowl. But i'm still glad they got into the playoffs and gave it their best shot, rather than losing out as soon as Palmer went down. Did it benefit them in the long run? No. But i enjoyed every one of those wins.

Just the way i'm wired, i guess.

...dave

Comparing this years team and the 2014 team as far as rooting for them to win or lose is the dumbest thing I've ever seen you write or heard you say in person... which isn't saying much because you're a smart mf'er... but really Dave? You know we'll rip that apart when we see you on Sunday.

 

[daves]

Comparing this years team and the 2014 team as far as rooting for them to win or lose is the dumbest thing I've ever seen you write or heard you say in person... which isn't saying much because you're a smart mf'er... but really Dave? You know we'll rip that apart when we see you on Sunday.

I'm not comparing that team and this team, and i think you know that.

You and Ouchie are arguing that if you're not going to win the Super Bowl, then you should root to lose in the short term and enjoy losses more than victories, because it will improve the draft position and improve the long-term chance of winning the Super Bowl.

That 2014 team had zero chance of winning a Super Bowl with Ryan Lindley. So from your perspective, what was the point of even trying to win once Palmer, then Stafford went down? How could you enjoy seeing the fight that team had and watching them win just enough games to earn the wild card berth, knowing that it was only hurting them in the long run?

My point is that even when almost all hope was lost, i was STILL happy that team made the playoffs and put up a fight, for a half, in Carolina. Even though it was pointless in the long term.

I enjoy watching the Cardinals WIN. Under no circumstances would i EVER enjoy seeing them lose more than i would enjoy seeing them win.

I guess you'll be out watching them and hoping for them to lose against the Eagles this weekend. Not i. (And i'll be in San Diego, so i won't see ya this time, but i guess you and Mockus can root for the Eagles together.)

...dave

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

I'm not comparing that team and this team, and i think you know that.

You and Ouchie are arguing that if you're not going to win the Super Bowl, then you should root to lose in the short term and enjoy losses more than victories, because it will improve the draft position and improve the long-term chance of winning the Super Bowl.

That 2014 team had zero chance of winning a Super Bowl with Ryan Lindley. So from your perspective, what was the point of even trying to win once Palmer, then Stafford went down? How could you enjoy seeing the fight that team had and watching them win just enough games to earn the wild card berth, knowing that it was only hurting them in the long run?

My point is that even when almost all hope was lost, i was STILL happy that team made the playoffs and put up a fight, for a half, in Carolina. Even though it was pointless in the long term.

I enjoy watching the Cardinals WIN. Under no circumstances would i EVER enjoy seeing them lose more than i would enjoy seeing them win.

I guess you'll be out watching them and hoping for them to lose against the Eagles this weekend. Not i. (And i'll be in San Diego, so i won't see ya this time, but i guess you and Mockus can root for the Eagles together.)

...dave

Ah ah ah Dave, you can argue with us but no putting words in our mouths. You know we will call you on that and you know that's a lame tactic. We have never said anything short of a Super Bowl is worthless, as yiur suggesting here. It depends upon the season.

Give me a young team learning to win and a 7-9 or 8-8 season is a win.

Give me a 10-6 season and miss the playoffs and that's a season worth enjoying.

Give me a playoff season and that's awesome.

Give me a 4-6 win season with an old team going nowhere and that's just not worth it. In fact, even a 7 or 8 win season with this old team is a throw away season.

 

[daves]

Ah ah ah Dave, you can argue with us but no putting words in our mouths. You know we will call you on that and you know that's a lame tactic. We have never said anything short of a Super Bowl is worthless, as yiur suggesting here. It depends upon the season.

Not putting words in your mouth, just taking your attitude to its logical conclusion. By your logic, losing and missing the playoffs would've improved their draft pick and thus their future prospects. So why be inconsistent? How could you enjoy winning in a season that was going to lead to an embarrassing road playoff loss that set records for futility?

I enjoy wins. I hate losses. Period. Can i see the benefit of a loss in a season that's going nowhere? Sure! But i don't root for it. I'm not happier when they lose.

Are you really going to root with Mockus this weekend?

...dave

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Not putting words in your mouth, just taking your attitude to its logical conclusion. By your logic, losing and missing the playoffs would've improved their draft pick and thus their future prospects. So why be inconsistent? How could you enjoy winning in a season that was going to lead to an embarrassing road playoff loss that set records for futility?

I enjoy wins. I hate losses. Period. Can i see the benefit of a loss in a season that's going nowhere? Sure! But i don't root for it. I'm not happier when they lose.

Are you really going to root with Mockus this weekend?

...dave

Mockus is an apex variable that throws the entire paradigm into an alternate universe and you know that.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'm not comparing that team and this team, and i think you know that.

You and Ouchie are arguing that if you're not going to win the Super Bowl, then you should root to lose in the short term and enjoy losses more than victories, because it will improve the draft position and improve the long-term chance of winning the Super Bowl.

That 2014 team had zero chance of winning a Super Bowl with Ryan Lindley. So from your perspective, what was the point of even trying to win once Palmer, then Stafford went down? How could you enjoy seeing the fight that team had and watching them win just enough games to earn the wild card berth, knowing that it was only hurting them in the long run?

I could enjoy watching that team because

a) it was still the beginning of something.

b) I truly believed in Bruce and Keim at the time and was so overloaded with Kool-Aid that i thought with Stanton we still had a shot, and even when he went down, I thought if Lindley could miraculously just pull one game out, maybe Stanton would be healthy enough to get back in the 2nd round.

c) I wanted that team, no matter who was under C to get playoff experience so that when Carson came back the next year, they wouldn't be green in the playoffs.

d) by the time Stanton went down, we had already won 11 games and would be picking late in the first anyway.

Basically, NOTHING that happened in 2014 was hurting them in the long run because we had the entire team coming back in 2015 and thought our window was relatively open for three or four years.

I think the window has slammed shut on this team, it's ancient and the FO treated the entire year like a throwaway, punting on the season. So, my passion for the team has followed suit.

That said, I'm not totally where Ouchie is. It's a little TOO early in the season for me to go full on tank. As long as they hover around .500 for a bit, I'll maintain the slightest shred of hope that they're one of those clubs that looks godawful in the first 1/3 of the year and then somehow is that one team each year that seemingly comes back from oblivion to make the playoffs. But I get where he is because this team IS GODAWFUL right now, IMO.

 

[Ronin]

xc_hide_links_from_guests_guests_error_hide_media