Getting the first pick

[Zeno]

You guys are both missing this....

The NFLPA has proposed that this issue be addressed by shortening rookie contracts to a maximum of three years, which should result in NFL clubs saving more than $200 million in committed dollars devoted to high first-round picks each year.

No I didn't miss that, I said the teams would save up front money just because they can't pro-rate signing bonuses over 5 yrs versus 3. The annual salaries would remain the same...just the length of contract therefore the overall number would be smaller.

Like I said it will only be less dollars up front because the contract lengths are shorter, it doesn't mean those guys won't get the same amount of money annually, it will just be for less time.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

No I didn't miss that, I said the teams would save up front money just because they can't pro-rate signing bonuses over 5 yrs versus 3. The annual salaries would remain the same...just the length of contract therefore the overall number would be smaller.

I don't believe that will be the case. They don't want the rookies to be in large signing bonuses before the players step on the field. I believe that the signing bonuses will still get smaller and the contracts would get smaller too. The NFLPA wants the savings that would be generated would be put into a 'veteran pool' that has the money redistributed to those that meet their incentives or their play surpasses their contract.

I don't think that there will be a 'rookie scale' like we see in the NBA, but a shift in money from rookies to veterans in the next CBA.

 

[kerouac9]

You guys are both missing this....

The NFLPA has proposed that this issue be addressed by shortening rookie contracts to a maximum of three years, which should result in NFL clubs saving more than $200 million in committed dollars devoted to high first-round picks each year.

Okay. But that means that you're cutting off the last THREE YEARS of many Top 10 contracts. Stafford signed for six years with $41.7 million guaranteed. And we all know that that "guaranteed" figure includes a lot of funny money and late-contract roster bonuses and such (as #7's did). So if you cut $10 million off the last season of a contract (like what happened with Rolle and #7), that's where all the savings comes from.

If you're unsure about this, PM Joeshmo. I'm sure he'd be more than happy to run over it with you.

For another example, the Raiders saved $6.45 million cutting JaMarcus Russell this offseason. That's "COMMITTED" money, but not PAID money.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Okay. But that means that you're cutting off the last THREE YEARS of many Top 10 contracts. Stafford signed for six years with $41.7 million guaranteed. And we all know that that "guaranteed" figure includes a lot of funny money and late-contract roster bonuses and such (as #7's did). So if you cut $10 million off the last season of a contract (like what happened with Rolle and #7), that's where all the savings comes from.

If you're unsure about this, PM Joeshmo. I'm sure he'd be more than happy to run over it with you.

For another example, the Raiders saved $6.45 million cutting JaMarcus Russell this offseason. That's "COMMITTED" money, but not PAID money.

...and? Are we arguing semantics at this point? If this 'savings' or 'cutting' is being scaled back from the rookies and given to the veterans..... isn't that what I have been saying?

I understand how NFL's back loading contracts work.

 

[oaken1]

I would prefer to see them extend the years and lower the money,....so a team has some time to benefit from the player if he develops well.
Maximum of 2 mil per year in salary and 1mil per year in bonus,..so,....five years, fifteen million would be for the number one overall pick.
I would also like to see the league place an RFA year on the end of EVERY NFL contract, not just rookies. This way if a guy wants to go make a big payday he has to perform in a season where he is being underpaid,...or if another team wants him, they have to give up picks to get him. IMO this will help maintain team continuity, add to parady, and increase team loyalty from the fans which will result in a stronger fan base.

 

[earthsci]

IMO they may shorten the contract lengths but it will hurt the vets even more. Do you think that the first pick in the draft is going to be OK with getting half of a signing bonus as they first pick from a few years before? I don't. And now you have less time to spread it out. Their yearly hit will balloon. Again, MO.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

IMO they may shorten the contract lengths but it will hurt the vets even more. Do you think that the first pick in the draft is going to be OK with getting half of a signing bonus as they first pick from a few years before? I don't. And now you have less time to spread it out. Their yearly hit will balloon. Again, MO.

First round pick won't have anything to say about it if that is the terms of the CBA. If there is a slotted rookie scale as there is in the NBA, then players are going to receive a set amount of money with no negotiation needed. I guess I could foresee a lockout because of the difference in money from previous years, but I doubt that it would win. They will definitely be angry, but nothing (other than suing or holding out) that they can do about it.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I would prefer to see them extend the years and lower the money,....so a team has some time to benefit from the player if he develops well.
Maximum of 2 mil per year in salary and 1mil per year in bonus,..so,....five years, fifteen million would be for the number one overall pick.
I would also like to see the league place an RFA year on the end of EVERY NFL contract, not just rookies. This way if a guy wants to go make a big payday he has to perform in a season where he is being underpaid,...or if another team wants him, they have to give up picks to get him. IMO this will help maintain team continuity, add to parady, and increase team loyalty from the fans which will result in a stronger fan base.

That's what the owners want. Lock up rookies long term with paying them as little as possible. Veterans want the money redistributed from the rookies to them.

 

[Mulli]

...and? Are we arguing semantics at this point? If this 'savings' or 'cutting' is being scaled back from the rookies and given to the veterans..... isn't that what I have been saying?

I understand how NFL's back loading contracts work.

I think the argument was about the NFLPA's position on a ROOKIE PAYSCALE.

 

[earthsci]

First round pick won't have anything to say about it if that is the terms of the CBA. If there is a slotted rookie scale as there is in the NBA, then players are going to receive a set amount of money with no negotiation needed. I guess I could foresee a lockout because of the difference in money from previous years, but I doubt that it would win. They will definitely be angry, but nothing (other than suing or holding out) that they can do about it.

But according to the link that you supplied it isn't limiting how much they get. Just how long the contracts are. IMO their thought process is that if a contract is shorter they will get smaller signing bonuses since they can't spread it out. All it will take is a first pick with Drew Rosenhaus as an agent to topple that theory.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

I think the argument was about the NFLPA's position on a ROOKIE PAYSCALE.

How do we want to define 'rookie scale?' To me, limiting the length of a contract and redistributing money saved from rookie contracts to veterans sounds like a scale to me.... no?

 

[Mulli]

How do we want to define 'rookie scale?' To me, limiting the length of a contract and redistributing money saved from rookie contracts to veterans sounds like a scale to me.... no?

No, that is limiting the length of contracts.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

But according to the link that you supplied it isn't limiting how much they get. Just how long the contracts are. IMO their thought process is that if a contract is shorter they will get smaller signing bonuses since they can't spread it out. All it will take is a first pick with Drew Rosenhaus as an agent to topple that theory.

The link I provided also expressed the veterans irk about giving money to rookies before they have earned it on the field and 'The players are also still willing to restrain the compensation committed to rookie players before they have proven their performance, by limiting rookie contract length. '

 

[earthsci]

How do we want to define 'rookie scale?' To me, limiting the length of a contract and redistributing money saved from rookie contracts to veterans sounds like a scale to me.... no?

Not really. How is the rookie making less per year? His contract is smaller because it isn't as long. He is still going to want as much per year if it isn't spelled out. That will still affect the vets. As I've already said, I think that it will do the opposite of what the NFLPA wants. The rookies are going to be a bigger cap hit.

 

[earthsci]

The players are also still willing to restrain the compensation committed to rookie players before they have proven their performance, by limiting rookie contract length.

I think that they will find that they are mistaken.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

No, that is limiting the length of contracts.

Let's take the current #1 pick Bradford. He got a 12M signing bonus and 300K in base salary and a 2.88M roster bonus this year Nearly 15M. Next year, he is getting a nearly 18M signing bonus and 405k in salary.

32M dollars before his second year in the league. We think that the NFLPA is going to be willing to shorten these type of contracts, to offer even more money than this? 31.2M before his second year. The veterans want this money going to them, not unproven rookies.

 

[Mulli]

Let's take the current #1 pick Bradford. He got a 12M signing bonus and 300K in base salary and a 2.88M roster bonus this year Nearly 15M. Next year, he is getting a nearly 18M signing bonus and 405k in salary.

32M dollars before his second year in the league. We think that the NFLPA is going to be willing to shorten these type of contracts, to offer even more money than this? 31.2M before his second year. The veterans want this money going to them, not unproven rookies.

Yes, but do they want yearly compensation capped or slotted?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

Yes, but do they want yearly compensation capped or slotted?

As far as I can tell, that part hasn't been negotiated yet. (or at all)

 

[earthsci]

Let's take the current #1 pick Bradford. He got a 12M signing bonus and 300K in base salary and a 2.88M roster bonus this year Nearly 15M. Next year, he is getting a nearly 18M signing bonus and 405k in salary.

32M dollars before his second year in the league. We think that the NFLPA is going to be willing to shorten these type of contracts, to offer even more money than this? 31.2M before his second year. The veterans want this money going to them, not unproven rookies.

How would shortening Bradford's contract have prevented him from making 32M dollars before his second year in the league? I understand, in theory, that a shorter contract SHOULD mean a smaller signing bonus but unless it is spelled out like the NBA the agents are still going to go after the money.

 

[Russ Smith]

Again that doesn't say anything about a rookie pay scale. Like I said it will only be less dollars up front because the contract lengths are shorter, it doesn't mean those guys won't get the same amount of money annually, it will just be for less time.

So, for example, instead of $50 million over 5 yrs they wil get $30 million over 3--still equals $10 million a year. The owners have to shell out less up front is all that is.

I think DCR is saying that salaries tend to escalate so shorter deals will have lower annual salaries?

I also thought they don't count rookie contracts in figuring for franchise tag and stuff but sounds like that is incorrect?

 

[dreamcastrocks]

How would shortening Bradford's contract have prevented him from making 32M dollars before his second year in the league? I understand, in theory, that a shorter contract SHOULD mean a smaller signing bonus but unless it is spelled out like the NBA the agents are still going to go after the money.

This is what I believe will be negotiated. I think that the signing bonus will be cut drastically (maybe even in half) and redistributed to veterans and retired players.

If it is not spilled out in the CBA, I'll agree with everything that has been said. I think the CBA will limit the amount of money that rookies can be signed for. In a way that will be drastically less than what they make now.

 

[Russ Smith]

Not really. How is the rookie making less per year? His contract is smaller because it isn't as long. He is still going to want as much per year if it isn't spelled out. That will still affect the vets. As I've already said, I think that it will do the opposite of what the NFLPA wants. The rookies are going to be a bigger cap hit.

But won't there still be a rookie cap per team? If the rookie cap per team % doesn't go up, rookie salaries can't go up either(for the high picks).

 

[earthsci]

But won't there still be a rookie cap per team? If the rookie cap per team % doesn't go up, rookie salaries can't go up either(for the high picks).

That's a good point, but they can still go up some if the slot isn't spelled out. The agent for the first pick won't care if the other rookies don't get paid.

 

[dreamcastrocks]

That's a good point, but they can still go up some if the slot isn't spelled out. The agent for the first pick won't care if the other rookies don't get paid.

Agreed. I don't know if they will say that rookie contracts can only be worth 25% of total contracts, or dictate that the actual value of the contract like they do in the NBA. If something isn't done, the signing bonuses will be crazy (even more so) if they shorten contract lengths.

 

[kerouac9]

But won't there still be a rookie cap per team? If the rookie cap per team % doesn't go up, rookie salaries can't go up either(for the high picks).

That's why Bradford gets a roster bonus. That circumvents the rookie pool. Signing bonuses haven't been the issue for years.