Golden and Jones to DE, 4-3 confirmed

[Stout]

Jesus. Everything about this post is wrong.

Reddick played OLB in college and was drafted as Ann ILB. He was moved outside during the season due to injury. He had very little impact as a rookie at either position.

We don’t really know what the defense is right now because personnel and scheme are in flux. We knew it was pretty good with Badger, Branch, Dansby, etc. out there. But they’re not going to be out there next year.

Damn, you beat me to it

 

[BigRedRage]

I went to do the same but I assumed he meant Reddick and just left it alone.

 

[MadCardDisease]

I think this move might help Robert Nkemdiche the most. I believe he will be much better as a 3 technique in a 4-3. If he doesn't have success this year then it's the end of the road for him.

 

[kerouac9]

I think this move might help Robert Nkemdiche the most. I believe he will be much better as a 3 technique in a 4-3. If he doesn't have success this year then it's the end of the road for him.

It definitely puts him in the best position to succeed. It certainly seemed to me that we played a lot of one-gap 3-4 defense, regardless.

'Diche only played 256 defensive snaps last year. He's got to worry about getting on the field.

 

[Chopper0080]

So we overdrafted Reddick as a MLB project, and now he'll be an OLB, and we still have a desperate need at ILBer. Cheese and rice, that's awful!

We are hoping he turns into a Chad Greenway type of Sam LB now vs an interior pass rusher ala prime Karlos Dansby.

and it means that we drafted a guy in the 1st round and are now putting him into a 2nd round or later type role.

 

[TJ]

The 4-3 better suits the size and skills of the players we currently have, anyway. Both Golden and Jones have played a lot of their football lives with their hands in the dirt. Bucannon is tailor made as a WILB if he's playing in the front 7. Bucannon came in as an OLB, not an ILB, but only was moved out of position as a rookie into the middle due to excessive injuries to the team last year. He is a textbook SILB. Bynes may surprise as starting middle man, he was good in the opportunity last year. Our defense isn't too bad at all, need a defined CB2 for sure, and as a luxury, a giant immovable meathead on the line. We're blessed to have several spots filled by guys who are among the best in the league at their positions.

It's da offense what be needing da work.

Well, there is no WILB in the 4-3. I think you mean the WILL.

Buccanon came in as a safety and was converted to ILB because of the D-Wash suspension. I have no clue how he'll do in that role. Frankly, I have no clue how ANY of the linebackers will do.

But as was said by others, I think our personnel matches relatively well for a 4-3. Diche as a 3-tech looks promising and Reddick may excel as a 4-3 SAM.

 

[Gandhi]

I don’t think the concern is Sunday’s as much as it is personnel moves. Planning for a 3-4 vs 4-3 is a mindset when evaluating and signing players and managing the roster.

Not as much as one might think. Looking back at the recent acquisitions it’s obvious that teams don’t really care either. I have only gone back two years and only the first round of those drafts. I have used the term of the two systems to make my point clearer.

Defensive end Joey Bosa out of Ohio State was generally considered a great defensive end prospect in a 4-3 system yet was drafted by the Chargers that ran a 3-4 system.

Vic Fangio’s defense also incorporated a lot of 4-3 concepts in Chicago when they drafted a prototypical 3-4 outside linebacker in Leonard Floyd out of Georgia.

The widespread opinion on defensive tackle Sheldon Rankins out of Louisville was that he should play in a 4-3 system to maximize his potential. He was drafted by the Saints whose defensive coordinator Dennis Allen uses a lot of 3-4 concepts.

Most viewed Jarrad Davis as a traditional weakside linebacker in a 4-3 system. He was drafted by the Lions where defensive coordinator Teryl Austin ran a 3-4 system at the time.

Malik Jackson was a defensive end in the Broncos’ 3-4 scheme yet signed with the Jaguars, that utilizes a 4-3 front, in free agency.

Damon Harrison played the nose tackle-position in the Jets’ 3-4 alignment before he signed with the Giants where they ran a 4-3 system.

Chris Baker was a defensive end in the Redskins’ 3-4 system, and then signed with the Buccaneers where they ran a 4-3 system.

--------------------------------

We can also look at the Cardinals. Calais Campbell was a 3-4 defensive end that signed with the Jaguars to play in a 4-3 system.

Kevin Minter was a middle linebacker in a 4-3 system at LSU but was still drafted to play inside linebacker in the Cardinals’ 3-4 scheme.

They drafted Robert Nkemdiche to play in their 3-4 scheme. Nkemdiche played in a 4-3 at Ole Miss.

They drafted Kareem Martin who was universally seen as a traditional 4-3 defensive end only to play in their 3-4 system.

They drafted Markus Golden who nearly everyone thought would only fit as a defensive end in a 4-3 scheme to play outside linebacker in a 3-4 system.

These lists can go on as there are numerous examples, and the conclusion will be, like I wrote, that it doesn’t matter what the media and fans call the systems.

 

[Chopper0080]

So...Campbell went from a DE in a 3-4 to a base DE in a 4-3. Not much difference.

Minter was a marginal ILB in a 4-3 in college and then has been a marginal ILB in the NFL 3-4 or 4-3.

Nkemdiche was a 4-3 player in college, drafted by a 3-4 team where he was a poor fit and made virtually zero impact.

Kareem Martin was a 4-3 DE in college, went to a 3-4 team, took 4 years to develop before he went on to a quality role and then we let him go.

Golden was an undersized 4-3 DE in college which is why he projected to a mid round 3-4 OLB because he would have to learn to play off the ball. He went a 3-4 and became a hustle OLB. Now he is shifting to a 4-3 DE where, again, the question remains if he can hold up.

Damon Harrison...went from a pure NT to a 1-techinique with the Giants in a 4-3 which has similar duties.

Teryl Autin runs a 4-3 scheme with the Lions which is what J Davis ran in college. I don't know why you feel that he ran a 3-4.

Vic Fangio runs a 3-4 scheme not a 4-3. Leonard Floyd was drafted to fill the role Aldon Smith had as a 3-4 OLB in Fangio's scheme in San Fran. Fangio ran a 3-4 at Stanford with Harbaugh as well.

Dennis Allen runs a 4-3 as well. That is why they drafted Von Miller. Milelr was converted to an OLB when Wade Phillips came in to replace Dennis Allen when he was hired by Oakland. So, Rankins makes sense as a 3 technique in a 4-3 defense which is what the Saints run.

 

[kerouac9]

They drafted Markus Golden who nearly everyone thought would only fit as a defensive end in a 4-3 scheme to play outside linebacker in a 3-4 system.

Literally no one believed this. Chopper speaks for me on everything else.

 

[kerouac9]

That's a cool story about Mario Addison. Of course, he's 30 years old and played just 40% of the defensive snaps two years ago, and 65% of the defensive snaps last year.

Only highlights how important it is to have a stout backup to Golden.

 

[MadCardDisease]

That's a cool story about Mario Addison. Of course, he's 30 years old and played just 40% of the defensive snaps two years ago, and 65% of the defensive snaps last year.

Only highlights how important it is to have a stout backup to Golden.

What story about Addison are you referring to?

 

[Gandhi]

So...Campbell went from a DE in a 3-4 to a base DE in a 4-3. Not much difference.

Minter was a marginal ILB in a 4-3 in college and then has been a marginal ILB in the NFL 3-4 or 4-3.

Nkemdiche was a 4-3 player in college, drafted by a 3-4 team where he was a poor fit and made virtually zero impact.

Kareem Martin was a 4-3 DE in college, went to a 3-4 team, took 4 years to develop before he went on to a quality role and then we let him go.

Golden was an undersized 4-3 DE in college which is why he projected to a mid round 3-4 OLB because he would have to learn to play off the ball. He went a 3-4 and became a hustle OLB. Now he is shifting to a 4-3 DE where, again, the question remains if he can hold up.

Damon Harrison...went from a pure NT to a 1-techinique with the Giants in a 4-3 which has similar duties.

Teryl Autin runs a 4-3 scheme with the Lions which is what J Davis ran in college. I don't know why you feel that he ran a 3-4.

Vic Fangio runs a 3-4 scheme not a 4-3. Leonard Floyd was drafted to fill the role Aldon Smith had as a 3-4 OLB in Fangio's scheme in San Fran. Fangio ran a 3-4 at Stanford with Harbaugh as well.

Dennis Allen runs a 4-3 as well. That is why they drafted Von Miller. Milelr was converted to an OLB when Wade Phillips came in to replace Dennis Allen when he was hired by Oakland. So, Rankins makes sense as a 3 technique in a 4-3 defense which is what the Saints run.

Well, since the confusion stems from the use of the terms 3-4- or 4-3 defenses, you just proved my point. Thank you.

 

[Gandhi]

Literally no one believed this. Chopper speaks for me on everything else.

I’m sorry that you don’t remember, so I have found some quotes from some of the articles, so you can see it.

“I thought he had a chance to be a 3-4 OLB, but his 4.90 4o-time and stiff performance in the combine drills will limit him to DE in a 4-3 scheme.”

“He's built like a linebacker but moves like a defensive end. He doesn't have the hips to stand up and play in space at the next level. That's the career Golden should pursue as a 4-3 defensive end.”.

“But I think he’s an undersized defensive end and a pretty solid one, at that. But I just just don’t know if a he’s a fit in a 3-4.”

“Golden is a square-number pass rusher, meaning there isn't much twist, turn and torque to his game.”

 

[kerouac9]

I’m sorry that you don’t remember, so I have found some quotes from some of the articles, so you can see it.

Where are the links?

 

[Chopper0080]

Well, since the confusion stems from the use of the terms 3-4- or 4-3 defenses, you just proved my point. Thank you.

I'm not confused to which teams run a base 4-3 and 3-4. I'm not sure how pointing out where you mistook those defenses proves that there isn't a significant difference between how teams draft for each type.

 

[Chopper0080]

The most interesting and forward thinking idea that I can see would be to put Bucannon at the SAM spot so you can put Reddick at the WILL. This would enable Reddick to utilize his pass rush abilities that he showed in college from a standing position, and also putting your two more dynamic athletes on the same side of the field. It leads to Bucannon being put in a worse position, but arguably would be better in the long term.

 

[Chopper0080]

To further this point...

Thomas Davis at the combine
6'1
230 lbs
32" arm length
40 - 4.64
Broad - 115
Vert - 36.5
3 Cone - 7.09

Haason Reddick at the combine
6'1
237 lbs
32.75" arm length
40 - 4.52
Broad - 133
Vert - 36.5
3 Cone - 7.01

This is also how Carolina used Thomas Davis and Shaq Thompson who was 6'0 228 at the combine.

 

[WisconsinCard]

We are hoping he turns into a Chad Greenway type of Sam LB now vs an interior pass rusher ala prime Karlos Dansby.

and it means that we drafted a guy in the 1st round and are now putting him into a 2nd round or later type role.

Chad Greenway was a first round pick..

I Keed...I Keed....

 

[Ohcrap75]

The most interesting and forward thinking idea that I can see would be to put Bucannon at the SAM spot so you can put Reddick at the WILL. This would enable Reddick to utilize his pass rush abilities that he showed in college from a standing position, and also putting your two more dynamic athletes on the same side of the field. It leads to Bucannon being put in a worse position, but arguably would be better in the long term.

If there was a "love button" I would've pushed it for this... Until then I will continue to find my wifes

 

[Gandhi]

Where are the links?

I mean, really? Why not just accept that you didn’t remember? There is nothing wrong with that.

Anyway, if you click here you can read one of the articles.

You can click here for another.

Click here to read the third.

Click here to read the last one I quoted.

 

[Gandhi]

So...Campbell went from a DE in a 3-4 to a base DE in a 4-3. Not much difference.

Minter was a marginal ILB in a 4-3 in college and then has been a marginal ILB in the NFL 3-4 or 4-3.

Nkemdiche was a 4-3 player in college, drafted by a 3-4 team where he was a poor fit and made virtually zero impact.

Kareem Martin was a 4-3 DE in college, went to a 3-4 team, took 4 years to develop before he went on to a quality role and then we let him go.

Golden was an undersized 4-3 DE in college which is why he projected to a mid round 3-4 OLB because he would have to learn to play off the ball. He went a 3-4 and became a hustle OLB. Now he is shifting to a 4-3 DE where, again, the question remains if he can hold up.

Damon Harrison...went from a pure NT to a 1-techinique with the Giants in a 4-3 which has similar duties.

Teryl Autin runs a 4-3 scheme with the Lions which is what J Davis ran in college. I don't know why you feel that he ran a 3-4.

Vic Fangio runs a 3-4 scheme not a 4-3. Leonard Floyd was drafted to fill the role Aldon Smith had as a 3-4 OLB in Fangio's scheme in San Fran. Fangio ran a 3-4 at Stanford with Harbaugh as well.

Dennis Allen runs a 4-3 as well. That is why they drafted Von Miller. Milelr was converted to an OLB when Wade Phillips came in to replace Dennis Allen when he was hired by Oakland. So, Rankins makes sense as a 3 technique in a 4-3 defense which is what the Saints run.

I know you don’t confuse the two systems, but a lot of posters and other fans does, even including the media. That's why I wrote a post about it originally.

Also, as you might notice I wrote that Dennis Allen with the Saints incorporated a lot of 3-4 concepts while Vic Fangio with the Bears incorporated a lot of 4-3 concepts. That’s is, in my opinion, not that the same as that they primarily ran those systems. Which they didn’t, by the way, because they ran a hybrid, like I wrote, but for the sake of simplicity let’s just call it that. You are right about Teryl Austin and the Lions. That was my mistake.

The post that I answered and that you quoted was about how Kerouac mentioned the difference about how to make acquisitions to the different schemes. I assume you agree that the players you highlighted like Calais Campbell, Damon Harrison, Kevin Minter, Robert Nkemdiche, Kareem Martin and Markus Golden changed from one perceived scheme to another, and I also assume that you would agree that it would be because the decision makers from the team that acquired them felt that it was a good idea?

It’s not a problem, by the way, if my post bothers you. We can just use some of the many other examples if you want.

 

[RugbyMuffin]

The most interesting and forward thinking idea that I can see would be to put Bucannon at the SAM spot so you can put Reddick at the WILL. This would enable Reddick to utilize his pass rush abilities that he showed in college from a standing position, and also putting your two more dynamic athletes on the same side of the field. It leads to Bucannon being put in a worse position, but arguably would be better in the long term.

I agree.......just if I am not mistaken, or if there are different 4-3 systems (which I plead ignorance on), isn't your WILB usually the smaller, faster, "cover" LB, and your SILB the bigger, and stronger "pass rush" option guy ?

Just semantics, BTW, I agree, your two Outside linebackers in this 4-3 will be Reddick, and Bucannon........thus the team taking a HUGE risk putting Josh Bynes as their MLB. Do not care if this is a passing league, or what not, MLB is key in this defense. Bynes has a lot to prove that he can handle that.

 

[kerouac9]

I mean, really? Why not just accept that you didn’t remember? There is nothing wrong with that.

Anyway, if you click here you can read one of the articles.

You can click here for another.

Click here to read the third.

Click here to read the last one I quoted.

Two Bleacher Report fan boards, one NFL.com link that doesn’t say what you think it does, and Golden’s hometown newspaper, which says he’s a better fit at OLB.

So, good job?

 

[WindCardinal]

Olivier Vernon is smaller than golden and has mostly played 4-3 DE...seems to be working out for him

 

[kerouac9]

Olivier Vernon is smaller than golden and has mostly played 4-3 DE...seems to be working out for him

Golden is listed as 6 lbs lighter than Vernon?