Goodwin as starting PG

[Catlover]

You explain it yourself. It has nothing to do with height.

Magic defended forwards mostly and started almost always alongside two guards one was typically a small guard / point guard. So technically Magic was a small forward unless you believe that PG is defined as the one running the offense in which case we should consider Lebron a PG too, which we do not.

So in todays game Magic would be considered a forward clearly.

We define players primarily by the role they fill on offense. Yes, Magic played next to players such as Scott and Cooper and often times he would defend the small forward while they defended the guards. But there was never a question as to his position, he was and still would be a point guard. He brought the ball up-court often times in fast break mode. In the half court, he clearly originated the offense. Lebron does some of what Magic does but to nowhere near the extent that Magic did. That's why Magic averaged 12 or 13 assists per game for several years and Lebron averages 6 or 7.

 

[Cheesebeef]

You explain it yourself. It has nothing to do with height.

Magic defended forwards mostly and started almost always alongside two guards one was typically a small guard / point guard. So technically Magic was a small forward unless you believe that PG is defined as the one running the offense in which case we should consider Lebron a PG too, which we do not.

So in todays game Magic would be considered a forward clearly.

LOL... so, you define the point guard... by defense. Okay.

And he NEVER started besides two guards. Who was the 2nd guard starting in the Magic/Byron/Kurt Rambis or AC Green/Worthy/Kareem teams? And hell... who was the "SMALL guard/PG guard" on those teams for 5 years? Who was the 2nd guard during the Magic/Norm Nixon years? Jamaal Wilkes? LOL... okay.

I really can't wait for you to tell me that Rambis or AC Green were 2nd guards. Or tell me that Michael Cooper... at 6'6 was the small guard... or that he was a starter.

Go ahead, show once again how clueless you are about basketball in an era you never watched.

 

[Mainstreet]

Someone has not watched Magic play. He was a brilliant PG. I can't understand how it can be disputed.

 

[Hoop Head]

No. You need a player that will play within the system. Can't just do his own thing. That's the problem with our other two pg's.

I could see Goodwin as a backup combo guard, running point some of the time. Thats about as close as I get.

I second this. I think he'd make for a good first guard off of the bench backing up Bledsoe & Booker, which leaves Knight with less of a place on this team which is probably for the best. I think Goodwin has shown he deserves minutes and could be a solid rotation player if he's given time to develop. Him playing PG while Bledsoe, Knight, and Price are out is only helping him develop into a role on this team in the future. I don't think he's talented enough to be a starter but I think he could be a lot like Barbosa in his time with Phoenix behind Nash.

 

[Errntknght]

Forget starting, Archie is not even good enough at the position to be a backup. It's good to see him be willing to lay the ball off to a big when he's driving but his handle needs to improve to be passable 2. That and he needs to improve his mid-range and closer. A pullup or a runner or even a jump hook would help when he's cut off on a drive - heck that was clear two year ago.

 

[sunsfan88]

I don't think PG is really his position. I can see him having a Kent Bazemore type role in the NBA if he can continue to develop his game.

 

[hcsilla]

Bazemore is a very good shooter and an OK defender. Goodwin is neither of them.

 

[leclerc]

At least Goodwin doesn't dominate the ball. It looks to be moving pretty well with him as starting PG. He's capable of finding the open man when he drives so he's not much worse than Bledsoe in that regard I think.

 

[slinslin]

LOL... so, you define the point guard... by defense. Okay.

And he NEVER started besides two guards. Who was the 2nd guard starting in the Magic/Byron/Kurt Rambis or AC Green/Worthy/Kareem teams? And hell... who was the "SMALL guard/PG guard" on those teams for 5 years? Who was the 2nd guard during the Magic/Norm Nixon years? Jamaal Wilkes? LOL... okay.

I really can't wait for you to tell me that Rambis or AC Green were 2nd guards. Or tell me that Michael Cooper... at 6'6 was the small guard... or that he was a starter.

Go ahead, show once again how clueless you are about basketball in an era you never watched.

Michael Cooper was 6'5 and he was a shooting guard and played close to 30mpg each year almost.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/coopemi01.html

I'll just look at the Lakers in 85, they were 62-20

Here are their main players in terms of minutes played

Magic ~2800 minutes
Worthy ~2700 minutes 6'9 SF/PF
KAJ ~2600 minutes 7'2 C
Scott ~2300 minutes 6'3 PG/SG
Cooper ~2200 minutes 6'5 SG
(Rambis played 1600 minutes)

You draw your conclusions what that means which position Magic realistically filled in a traditional lineup: Hint it was one of the forward spots. He defended forwards. Just because he was running the offense, does not mean he was filling the PG position just like Lebron isn't.
Heck of of Magic's bread and butter plays was to post up to make plays.

There is reason the term "point-FORWARD" was invented.

Now please answer this question, what position does Lebron James play according to you?

Even basketball-reference does not give Magic Johnson a designated position of "PG".
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsma02.html

Putting Magic down officially as the PG is also a convenient way of locking him on all-time lineups avoid any controvery whether Magic, Bird, Lebron or whatever is deserving of the forward spot.

 

[Catlover]

Now please answer this question, what position does Lebron James play according to you?

Even basketball-reference does not give Magic Johnson a designated position of "PG".

Magic started his career nominally as the shooting guard because the Lakers already had a good point guard. After it became obvious that Magic was the better playmaker, they traded Nixon away so that Magic could play the position full-time. Later on, Magic left the game for awhile to deal with his HIV. When he came back to the game he was heavier and slower so they moved him to the power forward position. Hence the reason Basketball Reference shows him playing multiple positions. But during his prime he was incontestably the point guard. That is not revisionist history so he could be an all time great, it was fact then and it's a fact now.

 

[slinslin]

His HIV infection was in the 90s. Explain their lineups in the 80s that regular features Magic + Cooper(SG) + Scott(PG/SG) or Nixon(PG)

If Magic was the "PG" then what position did the others play? Magic guarded forwards for the most part and he was guarded by forwards for the most part, makes him a forward in my book regardless of whether he was the playmaker or not.

By that logic we would all have to agree that Lebron James is a PG for a majority of his career, especially early.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Michael Cooper was 6'5 and he was a shooting guard and played close to 30mpg each year almost.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/coopemi01.html

I'll just look at the Lakers in 85, they were 62-20

Here are their main players in terms of minutes played

Magic ~2800 minutes
Worthy ~2700 minutes 6'9 SF/PF
KAJ ~2600 minutes 7'2 C
Scott ~2300 minutes 6'3 PG/SG
Cooper ~2200 minutes 6'5 SG
(Rambis played 1600 minutes)

You draw your conclusions what that means which position Magic realistically filled in a traditional lineup: Hint it was one of the forward spots. He defended forwards. Just because he was running the offense, does not mean he was filling the PG position just like Lebron isn't.
Heck of of Magic's bread and butter plays was to post up to make plays.

There is reason the term "point-FORWARD" was invented.

Now please answer this question, what position does Lebron James play according to you?

Even basketball-reference does not give Magic Johnson a designated position of "PG".
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsma02.html

Putting Magic down officially as the PG is also a convenient way of locking him on all-time lineups avoid any controvery whether Magic, Bird, Lebron or whatever is deserving of the forward spot.

That's crazy. Magic was a pg. that's just an undisputed historical fact. He could play other positions but the position he played was pg. Your argument based on minutes played is bogus because it ignores who started at what positions and the combos that were on the floor at the time.

It does not matter what position the others were designated. Supposedly the Suns play with a 2 pg offense, but when Bledsoe is in the floor, he is clearly the pg. Did you watch Magic play?

 

[Catlover]

His HIV infection was in the 90s. Explain their lineups in the 80s that regular features Magic + Cooper(SG) + Scott(PG/SG) or Nixon(PG)

If Magic was the "PG" then what position did the others play? Magic guarded forwards for the most part and he was guarded by forwards for the most part, makes him a forward in my book regardless of whether he was the playmaker or not.

By that logic we would all have to agree that Lebron James is a PG for a majority of his career, especially early.

I already explained it, you're just ignoring the answers. You keep going back to James and trying to claim he plays the same way and that isn't so. He occasionally runs the offense, Magic, after they traded Nixon, ran the offense period. Byron wasn't a point guard any more than Joe Dumars was. They both filled in at times and they could each play the position a little but that was common in the NBA at that time.

And Cooper was a hybrid athlete that learned to do a lot of things but he was also never a point guard. Teams tried to guard Magic with point guards, he posted them up and destroyed them. They also tried to guard him with bigs, he went by them handily and created easy baskets for his teammates.

Lebron wasn't the first player to handle some point guard duties from another position and he wasn't the second coming of Earvin. But the comparison that might make sense isn't with Magic, it's with George Gervin. Gervin, like James, ran the offense occasionally and created for his teammates but he was still a small forward (or shooting guard). Magic was the opposite, he played point guard most of the time but occasionally did some of the things shooting guards, small forwards, power forwards and centers do.

 

[Hoop Head]

I wish people would quit trying to convince Slin that Magic is a PG. I've seen it derail many threads here. His mind will never change, regardless of any evidence provided to the contrary. I lurk more than I post but there some things here that will never change...

BC loves Centers, Slin believes Magic was a forward, and elindholm's comments are usually pretty snarky. I know there is more but those stand out the most to me. I enjoy reading a lot of the posters takes because for the most part it seems that everyone here is a true lifelong Suns fans but trying to disrupt commonly practiced behavior of certain posters is impossible. I miss reading Steve here, he was usually positive in even the dark times.

 

[AZCrazy]

Different ends of the floor can see different responsibilities.

Magic was the PG on offense, but played forward on defense.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Michael Cooper was 6'5 and he was a shooting guard and played close to 30mpg each year almost.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/coopemi01.html

I'll just look at the Lakers in 85, they were 62-20

Here are their main players in terms of minutes played

Magic ~2800 minutes
Worthy ~2700 minutes 6'9 SF/PF
KAJ ~2600 minutes 7'2 C
Scott ~2300 minutes 6'3 PG/SG
Cooper ~2200 minutes 6'5 SG
(Rambis played 1600 minutes)

You draw your conclusions what that means which position Magic realistically filled in a traditional lineup: Hint it was one of the forward spots. He defended forwards. Just because he was running the offense, does not mean he was filling the PG position just like Lebron isn't.
Heck of of Magic's bread and butter plays was to post up to make plays.

There is reason the term "point-FORWARD" was invented.

Now please answer this question, what position does Lebron James play according to you?

Even basketball-reference does not give Magic Johnson a designated position of "PG".
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/johnsma02.html

Putting Magic down officially as the PG is also a convenient way of locking him on all-time lineups avoid any controvery whether Magic, Bird, Lebron or whatever is deserving of the forward spot.

Omg slin, you have to stop. You just have to stop. Magic was a PG. You never see any discussion of pgs without having magic at the top. Never. You are LITERALLY the ONLY person I have EVER seen try to argue this.

And I was a HUGE Byron Scott fan. He was NEVER a pg. NEVER. EVER. NEVER a pg. In fact, I'm fairly certain if you asked Byron what he played he would state unequivocally, that he was a shooting guard. He had one elite skill . . . shooting. He wasn't a ballhandler (I only recall one transcendent season where he became aggressive going to hoop) and he was not a distributor. He was a shooting guard.

I'm going to be real frank here (and someone can tell me if I'm going overboard), you can continue to make this argument, but every time to post that magic wasn't a pg you get one step closer to being a wealth of meaningless words in the eyes of ALL that read you. It literally devalues any post you ever make of merit.

 

[BC867]

BC loves Centers, Slin believes Magic was a forward, and elindholm's comments are usually pretty snarky.

Would you really put my wanting to see a good Center on our team in the same category with arguing about Magic Johnson's position and a "snarky" poster?

BTW, having watched Earvin Magic Johnson since he began, it is clear that he fulfilled the role of Point Guard on offense. Except for the one game when he filled in for Kareem and scored 40.

 

[Hoop Head]

Would you really put my wanting to see a good Center on our team in the same category with arguing about Magic Johnson's position and a "snarky" poster?

BTW, having watched Earvin Magic Johnson since he began, it is clear that he fulfilled the role of Point Guard on offense. Except for the one game when he filled in for Kareem and scored 40.

I meant no disrespect to anyone with my comment. It's just what I've noticed in my time visiting this site. Some things won't change about certain posters. I've followed this board for a while and besides the occasional people like Sci-Fi, who are just trolls, everyone is interesting in their own way.

I just can't believe people still argue with Slin about Magic being a PG. I'm fairly certain he's the only one here who thinks that. It doesn't matter what sort of evidence is posted he will never change his stance. I guess everyone feels like trying to convince him otherwise at least once. It's like when you see a wet paint sign on a bench, a lot of people still touch it to check even if they just witnessed someone get paint on their hands by doing the same thing.

 

[Phrazbit]

I'm going to be real frank here (and someone can tell me if I'm going overboard), you can continue to make this argument, but every time to post that magic wasn't a pg you get one step closer to being a wealth of meaningless words in the eyes of ALL that read you. It literally devalues any post you ever make of merit.

You are correct. Slin does have some quality posts but when they're intermingled with some of the other arguments, such as defense in the 90s and Magic Johnson somehow not being a point guard its such grand a departure from reality that it makes all other posts suspect and also makes defending some of his more valid stances an embarrassing proposition.

And yes, BC, you've banged that one drum so long and so hard and defended with some posts that are also a grand departure from reality (like your claim that Golden State won last year by going big, followed by you admitting that you were incorrect because you don't actually watch the games) that it all seems like white noise.

 

[Catlover]

I meant no disrespect to anyone with my comment. It's just what I've noticed in my time visiting this site. Some things won't change about certain posters. I've followed this board for a while and besides the occasional people like Sci-Fi, who are just trolls, everyone is interesting in their own way.

I just can't believe people still argue with Slin about Magic being a PG. I'm fairly certain he's the only one here who thinks that. It doesn't matter what sort of evidence is posted he will never change his stance. I guess everyone feels like trying to convince him otherwise at least once. It's like when you see a wet paint sign on a bench, a lot of people still touch it to check even if they just witnessed someone get paint on their hands by doing the same thing.

You're not wrong and I can imagine it gets boring (or frustrating) to read this kind of conversation when you aren't an active part of it. OTOH, right now, it seems a little less frustrating to be a part of this conversation than some of the ones about the current state of affairs in SunsLand.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I wish people would quit trying to convince Slin that Magic is a PG. I've seen it derail many threads here. His mind will never change, regardless of any evidence provided to the contrary. I lurk more than I post but there some things here that will never change...

BC loves Centers, Slin believes Magic was a forward, and elindholm's comments are usually pretty snarky. I know there is more but those stand out the most to me. I enjoy reading a lot of the posters takes because for the most part it seems that everyone here is a true lifelong Suns fans but trying to disrupt commonly practiced behavior of certain posters is impossible. I miss reading Steve here, he was usually positive in even the dark times.

I miss Steve too. Come back man.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Kingdad raises a good point. Sorry slin. I'll lay off. Believe what you want.

 

[SweetD]

I have been saying Goodwin reminds me of Wade. Can get to the hoop, but took him a few years to develop his outside shot.

 

[Mainstreet]

I have been saying Goodwin reminds me of Wade. Can get to the hoop, but took him a few years to develop his outside shot.

Anywhere near that would be good enough for me.

 

[leclerc]

What pleases me is his increased all-around energy, his free throw percentage (previous 12-14 before the Atlanta game) and he seems more focused on defence and calmer on offence.