Goran Dragic plans to test free agency; blames struggles on 3 PG system

[BC867]

Put him out there with Goran and they become the Lithuanian contingent, and they'd play their butts off maintaining the honor of their homeland - we'd see Goran at his best once again.

And that is the danger of brothers on a team. The coach has to tie up two positions to get maximum efficiency out of one?

And with two sets of brothers, that is four positions tied up to get the best out of two.

BTW, I don't believe that Goran's problem is not having Zoran on the floor with him. As the title of this thread says, "(Goran) blames struggles on 3 PG system".

Between brothers; SSOL (low emphasis on defense; run your players ragged, but do it with a 7.5 man rotation) and 3 Point Guard lineups, the Suns take the cake with gimmicks.

Gimmicks don't make a team championship calibre. Obviously!

 

[slinslin]

Why would you say Zoran is not good enough to be worthwhile? He and Goran dragged a pretty sorry squad to considerable success in a demanding arena. Put him out there with Goran and they become the Lithuanian contingent, and they'd play their butts off maintaining the honor of their homeland - we'd see Goran at his best once again.

They are not even Lithuanian.

 

[elindholm]

This is playing out exactly the way a few of us said it would. How come we were derided as pessimistic worrywarts when we pointed out the obvious?

 

[Chaplin]

Make some cookies or something... This "I told you so" act is pretty old.

We have problems, check. Nobody is denying that some of you had your concerns. We all had some concerns at one point or another. What are we supposed to do, pat you on the back for voicing concerns pretty much everyone had but didn't voice?

 

[elindholm]

Make some cookies or something... This "I told you so" act is pretty old.

We have problems, check. Nobody is denying that some of you had your concerns. We all had some concerns at one point or another. What are we supposed to do, pat you on the back for voicing concerns pretty much everyone had but didn't voice?

As usual, I have to ask whether you read my post. Here it is again:

"How come we were derided as pessimistic worrywarts when we pointed out the obvious?"

This isn't about "I told you so." It's about wondering why this board is so hostile to posters who can see problems coming in advance and share their concerns about them.

 

[Superbone]

http://www.cbssports.com/nba/eye-on-basketball/24839712

A reporter began to ask him about the backcourt -- Dragic played a season-low 21 minutes, and sometimes it's Thomas in that position.

“It's always me,” Thomas interrupted, looking and sounding frustrated. “It's always me.”

“As long as I'm in the game, I'm happy,” Thomas said. “That's the biggest thing. I know everybody wants to play. I feel like I can help this team in a big way.”

“It's not what I expected,” Thomas continued. “But coach has a tough job. Putting all of us on the floor and trying to mix up the minutes, it's tough for him. So it's not just tough for us as players, we just gotta be ready when our name's called and just know, I mean, coach is trying to do what he thinks is best for the team to put us in a position to win. But the key word is it's a tough situation. For all of us.”

http://www.brightsideofthesun.com/2...agic-not-thinking-about-next-season-yet-feels

"A lot of things have changed," Dragic said. "As you can see we have three play-makers, I'm playing mostly off the ball, I'm not that involved on the pick and roll which is my game. But this is part of sports, the team is playing well, so you have to make some sacrifices for the team. As long as it's working."

This is the difference between Dragic and IT3. Dragic seems more willing to make sacrifices for the betterment of the team while Thomas just wants to play more. I'll take the team guy every time. We don't need prima donnas.

 

[Chaplin]

As usual, I have to ask whether you read my post. Here it is again:

"How come we were derided as pessimistic worrywarts when we pointed out the obvious?"

This isn't about "I told you so." It's about wondering why this board is so hostile to posters who can see problems coming in advance and share their concerns about them.

Sorry, Eric, I wasn't necessarily responding to you--sunsfan88 does this all the time.

 

[Chaplin]

This is the difference between Dragic and IT3. Dragic seems more willing to make sacrifices for the betterment of the team while Thomas just wants to play more. I'll take the team guy every time. We don't need prima donnas.

But a team guy should be able to adapt to situations, and Dragic hasn't done that yet.

 

[elindholm]

Sorry, Eric, I wasn't necessarily responding to you--sunsfan88 does this all the time.

Oops, my mistake, sorry about that. But you still didn't answer my question.

 

[Chaplin]

Oops, my mistake, sorry about that. But you still didn't answer my question.

I think on a message board its extremely easy to be second guessed and to be the one doing the second guessing--God knows I've been guilty of both things over the years.

In sports, you'd like to think that you're moving in the right direction. And McD's track record has been pretty good so far, so some people like to hold out hope. When that hope is dashed, it sucks when some people do the "I told you so" dance.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Oops, my mistake, sorry about that. But you still didn't answer my question.

Part of it is the over-the-top negativity that sometimes seems unnecessarily prevalent here. That creates some of the backlash. But part of it is we really haven't established the grounds for an "I told you so". You and a few others think it's played out one way, and some of the rest of us think we hold the rights to the "I told you so".

I think there is at least as much justification to believe our problem is primarily the absence of Channing Frye. Several of us pointed out the importance of Frye to this team for his ability to space the court, coordinate the defense, bolster the team chemistry and provide on and off court leadership. While others railed against his inability to rebound like a big man or guard the Cousins, Gasol and Noahs of the league.

Now, I'll grant an "I told you so" to whomever was convinced that the two point guard system would only succeed if it included a stretch big man. That wasn't me, I didn't suspect it until the middle of last season and I wasn't fully convinced until the start of this one.

Steve

 

[BC867]

This isn't about "I told you so." It's about wondering why this board is so hostile to posters who can see problems coming in advance and share their concerns about them.

Which leads to the question . . . if we fans could anticipate the problem of 2, then 3, lead Point Guards, why couldn't the Front Office who are getting paid big bucks to build a winner see it?

When an NBA's team's three best players (4, including the effect that Green's scoring can have on games) are all Guards, it doesn't take an expert to realize the inevitable problems -- both technical and with personnel management.

It is bad enough that NBA players are paid in the millions to play basketball in front of a crowd. Pitting prima donnas against each other for playing time, game to game, is downright ignorant.

Kirk Gibson did the same thing with the D'backs and he was fired for the mediocre results.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Which leads to the question . . . if we fans could anticipate the problem of 2, then 3, lead Point Guards, why couldn't the Front Office who are getting paid big bucks to build a winner see it?

When an NBA's team's three best players (4, including the effect that Green's scoring can have on games) are all Guards, it doesn't take an expert to realize the inevitable problems -- both technical and with personnel management.

It is bad enough that NBA players are paid in the millions to play basketball in front of a crowd. Pitting prima donnas against each other for playing time, game to game, is downright ignorant.

Kirk Gibson did the same thing with the D'backs and he was fired for the mediocre results.

Markieff has a PER of 18.6. He's averaging just one fewer assist than Goran. He's putting up 15 points and 6 rebounds along with leading the team in steals. He's played fairly solid defense when used down low. He hasn't been great but he has greatly outplayed Goran, PJ, Marcus, Tolliver etc. and if you include defense he's arguably been our second best player behind Bledsoe. Not that his defense is great but it's nowhere near as bad as that played by Green, Goran or IT.

Steve

 

[elindholm]

Part of it is the over-the-top negativity that sometimes seems unnecessarily prevalent here. That creates some of the backlash. But part of it is we really haven't established the grounds for an "I told you so". You and a few others think it's played out one way, and some of the rest of us think we hold the rights to the "I told you so".

I don't care who can say "I told you so." That game is of no appeal to me.

I think there is at least as much justification to believe our problem is primarily the absence of Channing Frye.

Frye wouldn't have solved the minutes logjam in the backcourt, unless the Suns played him at center and went small.

I won't claim to have predicted who was going to struggle or how. The problem that I identified as obvious -- and which I resent being criticized for pointing out -- was a simple equation of minutes. There are too many players for the small positions (including SF), and that's with Goodwin, ZDragic, and Ennis getting almost no time. It was basic arithmetic.

The recognition of this problem, which was evident even before Bledsoe re-signed, then led to a few possibilities, at least one of which had to be true:

1. The Suns might play super small a lot of the time.
2. Bledsoe might not be re-signed, or might be traded for a big.
3. The Suns might use their "acquired assets" for a trade.
4. There was going to be a major minutes crunch at the small positions.

#1, thankfully, has been avoided; Hornacek seems to realize that micro-ball is not a formula for long-term success, and it helps that Len is showing a pulse. (And furthermore, the micro-lineups haven't worked anyway.)

#2 was wishful thinking, although I admit to having indulged in the wish.

#3 was, and is, also wishful thinking.

So we are left with #4.

To me, this would have been an interesting topic to discuss on a sports discussion board. But no, instead I got to read cheap shots about how I was pessimistic, not giving McDonough proper credit, not really a fan, whatever. That didn't hurt my feelings, but it absolutely offended my sense of discussion. What's the point of trying to have a conversation with people who reject inconvenient facts?

So what I'm asking now is why people were so unwilling to engage the question on its own terms. I don't care about "I told you so."

 

[Cheesebeef]

I don't care who can say "I told you so." That game is of no appeal to me.



Frye wouldn't have solved the minutes logjam in the backcourt, unless the Suns played him at center and went small.

I won't claim to have predicted who was going to struggle or how. The problem that I identified as obvious -- and which I resent being criticized for point out -- was a simple equation of minutes. There are too many players for the small positions (including SF), and that's with Goodwin, ZDragic, and Ennis getting almost no time. It was basic arithmetic.

The recognition of this problem, which was evident even before Bledsoe re-signed, then led to a few possibilities, at least one of which had to be true:

1. The Suns might play super small a lot of the time.
2. Bledsoe might not be re-signed, or might be traded for a big.
3. The Suns might use their "acquired assets" for a trade.

#3 could still happen. Would it really surprise you if Dragic plus some picks were dealt at some point during the season to try and get someone of merit? I think it's becoming clearer by the day that McD wants Bledsoe to run the team (for good or bad) and by signing Thomas, the odd man out now is Dragic, who's about to be a FA.

 

[elindholm]

#3 could still happen. Would it really surprise you if Dragic plus some picks were dealt at some point during the season to try and get someone of merit? I think it's becoming clearer by the day that McD wants Bledsoe to run the team (for good or bad) and by signing Thomas, the odd man out now is Dragic, who's about to be a FA.

It's possible that they'll try, but I don't see them getting a return offer that they'll like. But yes, it's possible.

 

[AzStevenCal]

#3 could still happen. Would it really surprise you if Dragic plus some picks were dealt at some point during the season to try and get someone of merit? I think it's becoming clearer by the day that McD wants Bledsoe to run the team (for good or bad) and by signing Thomas, the odd man out now is Dragic, who's about to be a FA.

I think this is reasonable but I don't see it as the plan from the beginning. I was surprised by the Zoran signing but if we'd always anticipated trading Goran it moves into the shocking range. I still think McD and probably Jeff underestimated the need for a good catch and shoot player, especially a good catch and shoot big man. Regardless, we have assets that are or will be tradable and signing IT is not going to keep us from winning it all this year. A lack of balance and a lack of talent will do the job quite nicely.

Steve

 

[Cheesebeef]

I think this is reasonable but I don't see it as the plan from the beginning. I was surprised by the Zoran signing but if we'd always anticipated trading Goran it moves into the shocking range. I still think McD and probably Jeff underestimated the need for a good catch and shoot player, especially a good catch and shoot big man. Regardless, we have assets that are or will be tradable and signing IT is not going to keep us from winning it all this year. A lack of balance and a lack of talent will do the job quite nicely.

Steve

oh, I don't think it was the plan from the beginning, but it wouldn't surprise me if it happened moving forward.

and if it does... this board will have a global meltdown unseen since we traded KT and two picks for nothing or marion for shaq.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I still chuckle that some people here thought there was any possibility this team would win 64 games this season.

 

[sunsfan88]

Sorry, Eric, I wasn't necessarily responding to you--sunsfan88 does this all the time.

Lol relax I didn't call out anyone who disagreed with me (which judging by this was probably you).

I'm not asking for credit. Me saying "I told you so" isn't gonna result in wins for the team. Me saying "I told you so" isn't gonna lead this team to a championship in my lifetime. I'm well aware of that.

And I have been wrong plenty also, most noticeably about Eric Gordon who is now out indefinitely after yet another injury.

 

[sunsfan88]

#3 could still happen. Would it really surprise you if Dragic plus some picks were dealt at some point during the season to try and get someone of merit? I think it's becoming clearer by the day that McD wants Bledsoe to run the team (for good or bad) and by signing Thomas, the odd man out now is Dragic, who's about to be a FA.

Do you find it funny that after Dragic has a breakout campaign in which averages 20 pts/game, 50% shooting from the field and 40% from 3 (Steve Nash like shooting numbers), and led this team to 48 wins, we decide to take this offense away from him and make him an off the ball player?

It would be like me winning a $600 million lottery and then my happily married wife committing suicide.

I still chuckle that some people here thought there was any possibility this team would win 64 games this season.

Easy there, I hope you aren't saying "I told you so" otherwise there are posters who are gonna get on your case about it.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Do you find it funny that after Dragic has a breakout campaign in which averages 20 pts/game, 50% shooting from the field and 40% from 3 (Steve Nash like shooting numbers), and led this team to 48 wins, we decide to take this offense away from him and make him an off the ball player?

I don't understand a lot of what this team did in the off-season. the three PG thing plus taking Ennis made very little sense to me.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Do you find it funny that after Dragic has a breakout campaign in which averages 20 pts/game, 50% shooting from the field and 40% from 3 (Steve Nash like shooting numbers), and led this team to 48 wins, we decide to take this offense away from him and make him an off the ball player?

He didn't really lead us to 48 wins. He and Eric led us to 48 wins. We played .500 ball without Eric. People keep ignoring that fact. We are 9 - 6 right now and playing a bit below our level and it's understandable that there's some hand-wringing going on. But it makes little sense that we're celebrating Goran's past given we were just break-even when he was our point guard and yet we played .650 ball when he spent a lot of his time playing off the ball.

Steve

 

[Chaz]

You are still a pessimistic worrywart.

This is playing out exactly the way a few of us said it would. How come we were derided as pessimistic worrywarts when we pointed out the obvious?

 

[Cheesebeef]

He didn't really lead us to 48 wins. He and Eric led us to 48 wins. We played .500 ball without Eric. People keep ignoring that fact. We are 9 - 6 right now and playing a bit below our level and it's understandable that there's some hand-wringing going on. But it makes little sense that we're celebrating Goran's past given we were just break-even when he was our point guard and yet we played .650 ball when he spent a lot of his time playing off the ball.

Steve

this is true as well.