Goran Dragic traded to Heat

[Errntknght]

I don't think so either, even though one has to be blind to not see it. Your best point guard should play point and your best shooting guard should play the two. They can both be "combos" but their roles need to be defined.

Hornacek's problem was that Goran was the better playmaker and also the better spot shooter while Bledsoe was head and shoulders above him defending either position. He wanted to have them both on the floor so as to have two outlet targets for the fastbreak, so he had to compromise somewhere. He elected to have Dragic in the primary role of spot up shooter and Bled driving to the hoop - he could actually drive better than Goran, he was just much more limited once he got there.

The fast break was pretty good (it helped that Ish could also run it) and the pair did okay in the half court but I thought the halfcourt offense could be much better if Jeff had them both active and playing off each other - in the sense of having defined plays where they both handled the ball, or it was an option at the least. His overall approach was better suited to having one real PG and a good ball handler at the 2 - the actual setup in his playing days.

A bigger problem arose this year, seemingly due to adding a third combo guard in IT - but I think it was more that he couldn't sell his concept (perhaps he didn't have one) to his players and great unhappiness ensued.

You're right that he didn't maximize Goran's effectiveness but that was never his goal - and it shouldn't be a coach's primary goal unless the guy is an otherworldly talent who can carry the entire team if you keep him happy enough. Goran was good and also loveable but he wasn't that level of a talent.

How about giving it a rest, its in the past...

 

[Mainstreet]

The Suns have regularly been playing lineups with 3 guys 6'10 or bigger and Tucker as the SG at the same time. The idea that they avoid playing big guys together is completely unfounded.

I especially noticed the use of it last night. It gave the Suns better overall height.

The Suns were passing the ball particularly well early in the game and then abandoned it maybe because they weren't hitting outside shots or just plain stagnation.

The spacing on the floor was good for awhile... then gone.

 

[JCSunsfan]

And that equals power in the NBA.

The Suns are the opposite of power . . .

Reverse
Every
Winnable
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Possible

If you watch the game last night, the Suns problem was not power. In fact, they were the more physical team even though the NOP were bigger. What they lacked was a true distributor, ball movement, movement without the ball, and outside scoring.

Brandan Wright is a very good defensive player, even against players that are much bigger than him. He is a definite presence on both ends. The Morris twins, but especially Markieff are a physical presence on offense and defense. They just do not play team ball very well (except with each other).

If you just look and height and weight numbers, you do not get a true impression of where this team is.

They obviously need Knight and Len. I would play Knight as the pg and Bledsoe as the off-guard. Thats how they defend anyway. For most of the night, Bledsoe was covering Evans and Tucker had Eric Gordon. I also would not hesitate to include Bledsoe in a deal for the right player. Archie is not a very good pg, but has real potential at the 2.

 

[Phrazbit]

Yes, if anything the Suns are lacking in the truly "Suns" things right now. We have a lot of size in the rotation, but we don't have any finesse guys, any outside shooters, the only guy who can get relatively easy baskets on his own is Markieff but he does it so methodically that it clogs the flow.

It sucks that Knight is hurt right now, in his brief PT his shot was not falling but you can tell he has a good stroke and his movement on and off the ball looked good. It would be nice to have a better idea of what we've got with him before the summer.

 

[BC867]

The Suns have regularly been playing lineups with 3 guys 6'10 or bigger and Tucker as the SG at the same time. The idea that they avoid playing big guys together is completely unfounded.

C'mon, that is just recently and due to injury.

It was a reaction by Jeff (and good to see) but not an action or indication of change of direction going forward.

 

[sunsfan88]

defense[/B].

Um no, their not. Kieff is worse defensively than Amare ever was and yet Amare was bashed 24/7 by Suns fans for his defense. Kieff is an extremely soft defender, hardly a "physical presence". Same with Marcus.

 

[Phrazbit]

C'mon, that is just recently and due to injury.

It was a reaction by Jeff (and good to see) but not an action or indication of change of direction going forward.

They're doing it with Len out! If Len were healthy they'd be even bigger.

 

[Phrazbit]

Um no, their not. Kieff is worse defensively than Amare ever was and yet Amare was bashed 24/7 by Suns fans for his defense. Kieff is an extremely soft defender, hardly a "physical presence". Same with Marcus.

Kieff is no great defender... but he is like 10,000 times as good as Amare defensively. Even comparing them is laughable.

 

[Sunburn]

Kieff is no great defender... but he is like 10,000 times as good as Amare defensively. Even comparing them is laughable.

I'm laughing right now. I can't believe that comparison was made. Obviously, we don't all remember how terrible Amare was defensively. Maybe the most clueless front court player on defense I have ever seen.

 

[Sunburn]

I don't think so either, even though one has to be blind to not see it. Your best point guard should play point and your best shooting guard should play the two. They can both be "combos" but their roles need to be defined.

How about giving it a rest, its in the past...

I for one am still shocked by it. Goran was our guy. Yet, we moved him out of position, relegated him to the corner, consequently hurting his numbers.....in a contract year. That's not taking care of your guy. It could be speculated the FO did it on purpose to make him cheaper to re-sign. I'm sure that crossed Goran's mind. To me, there's 3 explanations. They either recognized what was happening but failed to do anything about it. They didn't recognize what was happening. They were doing it on purpose. This means the FO was either negligent, inept, or dishonest. That's how I see it. That's probably how Goran sees it. There's a good chance that's how future free agents see it. Sorry to harp on it but I'm still shocked.

 

[BC867]

They're doing it with Len out! If Len were healthy they'd be even bigger.

But Len doesn't close games when healthy. Whether because he isn't being coached to stay out of foul trouble (or can't) or Horny prefers going light (he does), Len has a limited role on the team by not being a finisher.

 

[Phrazbit]

But Len doesn't close games when healthy. Whether because he isn't being coached to stay out of foul trouble (or can't) or Horny prefers going light (he does), Len has a limited role on the team by not being a finisher.

He plays in the neighborhood of 30 minutes a game, that number only limitted by foul trouble or injury, most of those minutes are played alongside TWO guys who are 6'10". He also was "closing" games post-trade deadline when healthy.

The argument that the Suns deliberately avoid playing height is 100% unfounded, especially when you consider how many minutes a guy like Miles Plumlee logged despite his severe struggles.

 

[BC867]

He plays in the neighborhood of 30 minutes a game, that number only limitted by foul trouble or injury, most of those minutes are played alongside TWO guys who are 6'10". He also was "closing" games post-trade deadline when healthy.

Who are the two 6'10" guys whom Len plays alongside of (the rare times he has finished games)?

Markeiff is listed at 6'10", but I read recently that he measures 6'9" in sneakers. And he himself said (as has been posted) that he considers himself light at PF, but has been the closer at C even when Len was healthy.

Wright is listed at 6'10" and 210 pounds. When Len is healthy, Wright is his backup. Neither of them has been Hornacek's choice to finish at C even post-trade deadline.

I hope you don't consider Marcus or certainly not PJ as the other 6'10" guy. They are the ones who have been finishing at PF when Markieff moves to C.

The three options for the C and PF positions.

A) Start and close games as a tandem.

B) Start games, but not finish together

C) Finish games but not start together

The Suns MO all season long has been B).

That shows neither confidence in the duo nor continuity/chemistry for the rest of the team.

 

[Phrazbit]

You have a selective memory, Len, when not hurting, was in at the end of games since the trade. Both Morris brothers are as much 6'10" as every other 6'10" player in the league. Len has played with both of them at once plenty. That is a very tall lineup.

And again, this is a team that has given a LOT of minutes to some really poor quality big men, the idea that they would refuse to play GOOD ones at the same time is not only unfounded but spits in the face of every shred of evidence available.

 

[elindholm]

And again, this is a team that has given a LOT of minutes to some really poor quality big men, the idea that they would refuse to play GOOD ones at the same time is not only unfounded but spits in the face of every shred of evidence available.

Yes, but Jerry Colangelo Alvan Adams no championships Phoenix Mercury blah blah blah. There's no refuting that.

 

[Errntknght]

I for one am still shocked by it. Goran was our guy. Yet, we moved him out of position, relegated him to the corner, consequently hurting his numbers.....in a contract year. That's not taking care of your guy. It could be speculated the FO did it on purpose to make him cheaper to re-sign. I'm sure that crossed Goran's mind. To me, there's 3 explanations. They either recognized what was happening but failed to do anything about it. They didn't recognize what was happening. They were doing it on purpose. This means the FO was either negligent, inept, or dishonest. That's how I see it. That's probably how Goran sees it. There's a good chance that's how future free agents see it. Sorry to harp on it but I'm still shocked.

How about the simple explanation I outlined above (in the post you quoted, no less). It does make the radical assumption that the coach was doing the coaching and doing his best to win games - but I guess that's not convoluted enough to satisfy you.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Yes, but Jerry Colangelo Alvan Adams no championships Phoenix Mercury blah blah blah. There's no refuting that.

Haha... awesome post.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Who are the two 6'10" guys whom Len plays alongside of (the rare times he has finished games)?

Markeiff is listed at 6'10", but I read recently that he measures 6'9" in sneakers. And he himself said (as has been posted) that he considers himself light at PF, but has been the closer at C even when Len was healthy.

Wright is listed at 6'10" and 210 pounds. When Len is healthy, Wright is his backup. Neither of them has been Hornacek's choice to finish at C even post-trade deadline.

I hope you don't consider Marcus or certainly not PJ as the other 6'10" guy. They are the ones who have been finishing at PF when Markieff moves to C.

The three options for the C and PF positions.

A) Start and close games as a tandem.

B) Start games, but not finish together

C) Finish games but not start together

The Suns MO all season long has been B).

That shows neither confidence in the duo nor continuity/chemistry for the rest of the team.

How much are we going to listen to this crap! Quibbling about fractions of an inch and 5 lbs. BC. I am beginning to question your sanity.

Do you watch the games. Wright dominated the much larger Pels the other night. He does not look undersized when on the court. Good grief.

The only place the Suns play undersized is at the 2. Kieff is slightly undersized to play C, but he only does that on occasion, and all the other teams in the league do the same freaking thing when they want to shake things up a bit.

 

[Sunburn]

How about the simple explanation I outlined above (in the post you quoted, no less). It does make the radical assumption that the coach was doing the coaching and doing his best to win games - but I guess that's not convoluted enough to satisfy you.

That's fine. The coach was making lemonade out of lemons. Fact of the matter is we were still hurting our guy's value in a contract year after he did so much for us the year before. Pretty sure what you're saying can be filed under negligent or inept. I stand by my statement that we were negligent, inept, or dishonest. Not a good look.

 

[3rdside]

They were probably all of that but I'm softening on McD - the guy got the whole dragic thing pretty badly wrong but he's got an excellent background from his Boston days where he played a huge part in turning their 24 win season into a title the following year, and his master stroke in Phoenix may be the drafting of Len, possibly the making of this franchise.

Really, the dragic problem was a major issue for McD but mainly because Dragic was so good for the team last year; we were supposed to tank for more picks, not just miss the playoffs - drafting well was a large reason for his success in Boston - even though he subsequently mismanaged the situation. For me, he's got enough credit in the bank to remain an interested fan and as others have said, this situation is nowhere near as bad as it was under Blanks.

I think it's fair to say the offseason will be a busy one and I'm looking forward to seeing what McD can do even though he's got huge question marks hanging over him.


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[Chaz]

Some people seem upset that the front office didn't do enough to keep Dragic. In addition to the other reasons postulated on here it is also possible that they just didn't value Dragic as much as some fans seem to.
I love Dragic as a player and as a nice guy but sometimes the business of building a basketball team requires some hard choices.

 

[SirStefan32]

Some people seem upset that the front office didn't do enough to keep Dragic. In addition to the other reasons postulated on here it is also possible that they just didn't value Dragic as much as some fans seem to.
I love Dragic as a player and as a nice guy but sometimes the business of building a basketball team requires some hard choices.

And that's fine if we chased Goran out of town in favor of Westbrook or Paul. I have become a Dragic fan, but that would make sense- I would make the same decision. What doesn;t make sense is that we chased Dragic out of town in favor of a nobody.

EDIT:
In all fairness, if he wasn't going to give Suns some kind of a home-town discount, I am OK with him being gone. I love Dragic, but $20M per year for the next five years is way too much.

 

[Chaz]

And that's fine if we chased Goran out of town in favor of Westbrook or Paul. I have become a Dragic fan, but that would make sense- I would make the same decision. What doesn;t make sense is that we chased Dragic out of town in favor of a nobody.

EDIT:
In all fairness, if he wasn't going to give Suns some kind of a home-town discount, I am OK with him being gone. I love Dragic, but $20M per year for the next five years is way too much.

I don't think they chased him out of town. They probably wanted him but on their terms. He isn't a Westbrook or a Paul is exactly the point.
His agent could see the writing on the wall and advised him to force his way out.

 

[SirStefan32]

I don't think they chased him out of town. They probably wanted him but on their terms. He isn't a Westbrook or a Paul is exactly the point.
His agent could see the writing on the wall and advised him to force his way out.

Of course they did. They wanted him to yield yo Bledsoe, IT, and Morris (three inferior players) and took the ball completely out of his hands. Of course they chased him out of town.

If he does sign for $15M+, it will ease the pain a bit, but even that doesn't change the fact that McD bet on the wrong horse in this particular race, and then traded for another Bledsoe clone, as if though one Bledsoe wasn't bad enough.

 

[Chaz]

Of course they did. They wanted him to yield yo Bledsoe, IT, and Morris (three inferior players) and took the ball completely out of his hands. Of course they chased him out of town.

If he does sign for $15M+, it will ease the pain a bit, but even that doesn't change the fact that McD bet on the wrong horse in this particular race, and then traded for another Bledsoe clone, as if though one Bledsoe wasn't bad enough.

The race has barely started.

Like I said. They didn't see the same value you do.