Jetstream Green
Kool Aid with a touch of vodka
Well, is he a league average TE or can he not play in this league lol
Gresham visiting the Cards
- Thread starter Iceman
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Well, is he a league average TE or can he not play in this league lol
Cbus cardsfan
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Even the Cards are calling Niklas a block first TE now, which is something some of us have been saying from day 1. Sure makes using that 2nd round pick on him even more of a head scratcher. I guess we have to wait and see him play before drawing a final conclusion but............
As for Gresham, he'd be a good veteran compliment but doubt he really makes an impact on the team's W/L record.
Since the Bengals are really my second team, I have watched JG a fair amount. He can get down field and can be a mismatch problem at times. He would probably be the best receiving TE if the Cardinals sign him. He's not a great blocking TE. There are times when he can be a big factor in a game and then others where he disappears.
At the right price he would be a good addition to the team. He is certainly an upgrade from The Dude.
At the right price he would be a good addition to the team. He is certainly an upgrade from The Dude.
And he used to play with Palmer
RON_IN_OC
https://www.ronevansrealty.com
I read scouting reports that said his pass blocking is pretty good...just not known as a run blocking TE. I could see him pass blocking and then getting out into the pattern...or having the option of keeping him in to block on blitzing downs, so that one of the RB's can get out into the pattern or vice versa. Having him provides flexibility.
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
Gresham receiving DVOA by year (essentially, value per play as a receiver):
2011: -8.5%, 30th
2012: 3.2%, 22nd
2013: -18.5%, 49th
2014: -21.9%, 44th
Yikes.
2011: -8.5%, 30th
2012: 3.2%, 22nd
2013: -18.5%, 49th
2014: -21.9%, 44th
Yikes.
Gresham played fifth Bengals season in 2014, a starter since onset of career ... Finished second on team in receptions (62), third in receiving yards (460) and tied for second in receiving TDs (five) ... Had first career two-TD game Nov. 16 at New Orleans ... Contributed to pass protection that allowed just 23 sacks, third-fewest in NFL ... Only Bengals TE to log three consecutive seasons of 50 or more catches, spanning 2010-12, and one of nine NFL TEs to top 50 catches in four or more of his first five seasons ... In 2013, when he missed two games and had 46 catches, he fell four short of joining only Mike Ditka in the category of TEs with 50-plus catches in each of their first four seasons.
Compared to some of the other TEs the Cardinals have had over the same time span he looks like a top end TE. Imagine if the Cardinals had gotten the same production out of the TEs they had. Apparently a good pass blocker which has been a real sore spot for the Cardinals. Personally I hope the team signs him at the right price.
In his only year (rookie) with Palmer he had 52 receptions and 25 of them were for first downs with 4 being TDs. Looking at his other years he had almost or over half of his catches going for 1st downs so he seems to be a reliable 3rd down target. Hell if he's not a good run blocker then he is certainly a good third down player.
Wonder if Palmer is going to be there to greet him?
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
He had 4 more receiving yards in 2013 than Housler as the 2nd-best receiving weapon on that offense.
He played with Palmer 4 years ago, as a rookie.
2014, 21st in receiving yards among TEs, 7.4 YPC(!) -- no one else on the page on NFL.com has so few YPC with so many yards and catches.
The guy is by any accounting a below-average TE. Much more than $1.5M for the season would be overpaying him to be a 5th or 6th receiving target in this offense.
Harry
ASFN Consultant and Senior Writer
Saints are under a great deal of fan pressure for letting Graham go, so they are motivated.
Niklas was the best blocking TE that year in the draft. If healthy he's the best blocker in this group. He was also a decent college receiver and figures to be fine on short and medium routes. His major problem was staying healthy. He always seemed to have an issue.
Gresham is a decent receiver, but not really a deep threat. He also was only moderately effective at getting separation in the red zone. I'd agree he'd be a decent addition, but I wouldn't overpay. I've heard also that some think he's unlikely to pass the physical.
Niklas was the best blocking TE that year in the draft. If healthy he's the best blocker in this group. He was also a decent college receiver and figures to be fine on short and medium routes. His major problem was staying healthy. He always seemed to have an issue.
Gresham is a decent receiver, but not really a deep threat. He also was only moderately effective at getting separation in the red zone. I'd agree he'd be a decent addition, but I wouldn't overpay. I've heard also that some think he's unlikely to pass the physical.
Haven't bothered to look up your stats, I'm assuming they're sound, but the only question is is he better than what we have? I say yes.
You are cherry picking again K9. Let's look at his career stats vs the entire Cardinal TE stats.
Stats are Receptions-Yards-YPC-TDs
2010
Cardinals 25-210-8.4-0
Gresham 52-471-9.1-4
2011
Cardinals 41-429-10.4-3
Gresham 56-596-10.6-6
2012
Cardinals 72-655-9.0-0
Gresham 64-737-11.5-5
2013
Cardinals 73-760-10.4-5
Gresham 46-458-10.0-4
2014
Cardinals 50-588-11.7-1
Gresham 62-460-7.4-5
Totals
Cardinals 261-2642-10.1-9
Gresham 280-2722-9.7-24
Seems to me that Gresham performed just as well and a bit better than the entire Cardinal TE group. I don't know about you but I would rather have those same stats from one guy instead of 3 or 4 guys and Gresham caught a TD every 11.6 catches versus every 29 catches for Cardinal TEs.
Garthshort
ASFN Addict
Harry, you mentioned that Niklas was the best blocking TE in last year's draft, IF HE's HEALTHY. There's the rub. Gresham is also considered a good blocker, but there are health issues with him, also. Logic tells me that having another TE, gives us added protection at that position. Good or not so good, we need veteran help. JMO.
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
I think that screens out the context. Gresham was the #2 receiving target the entire time he was there, and had a Top 5 WR in A.J. Green playing with him for the last three seasons--drawing most of the defense's attention on every down.
In the Cards' offense, the TE is almost always the #3 or #4 receiving option. Often lower, because the Cards' offense--particularly under Arians--is receiver-driven.
So you're having Gresham being mildly more productive as the #2 option than the #4 option for the Cards. Great. Even on a per-play basis, Gresham was less valuable than John Carlson in 2014 and Jim Dray AND Rob Housler in 2013. You have to go all the way back to 2012 to find when he was better than what we had.
I'm fine with adding Gresham as another option or whatever. At $1M for the year, he's a fine gamble. But he's not any kind of savior.
Depends on how you determine what a number 2 target is. If you go by number of times he was targeted then he was #2 only one year 2012, the rest of the time he was the #3 target and even was the 4th target in 2013 That would put him more in line with the Cardinal TEs. Are you saying that Fitz was drawing single coverage during this same time period which made it more difficult for the Cardinal TEs?
Not sure what you are basing this on?
CFLredzoned
Hall of Famer
Funny, I just heard Jurecki say he ranked 64th of 64 last year on PFF. And Housler was right above him.
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
You look at the offense and determine whom you would be concerned about if you were the opposing DC. Who was drawing passes away from Gresham aside from A.J. Green the last few years?
I'm not saying anything about Fitz. I'm saying that our TE production was bad because – in this order – our WRs were better and getting more looks and our TEs weren't that good. Heath Miller wasn't going to come in here and take touches away from Fitz, Brown, and Floyd. So just comparing raw stats is pretty ridiculous.
FootballOutsiders DVOA.
For me it all depends on his Physical. If he is healthy then I wouldn't mind a one year prove it deal like Keim has done in the past.
jbeecham
ASFN Addict
So is your argument that we shouldn't bother signing a veteran TE because they won't get targets as a receiver anyways? Or that we shouldn't be willing to spend more than the minimum on a TE because he won't be used in our offense?
What other veteran FA TE's are out there that would be a better signing? Zach Miller (if he's healthy)? Are you comfortable relying on Ifeanyi Momah or Gerald Christian if Niklas or Fells get hurt?
I think it is clear that k9s argument is that Gresham has been a model of inconsistancy throughout his career and he is dealing with a back issue. So he is far from a sure thing. As K9 has said he has no problem if the Cards bring him in on a cheap one year prove it deal. I agree with that as well.
kerouac9
Klowned by Keim
Here are my arguments/points of view:
1) Jermaine Gresham is at his absolute peak an average starting TE in the NFL
2) Gresham's value has historically underperformed his production
3) Gresham as a "receiving TE" is a nothing-burger, because he's not a good receiving TE, and never has been
4) Gresham isn't a significant upgrade over what we already have at TE
5) Signing Gresham is fine to a low-cost deal
6) Don't expect him to come in and expect him to catch 65 balls and score 5 TDs
ARZCardinals
ASFN Lifer
Cards are a lot better team than the saints. If it's money sure I understand, but if he wants to win....its AZ
ARZCardinals
ASFN Lifer
Debbie downer!
Name one TE we have that has done anything?!? Maybe potential...Gresh is an upgrade and that's what we need.
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at the vet minimum he would be good enough to play some snaps and a veteran mentor for our two young guys who have almost no experience.
