Grizzlies @ Suns 3-30-19

[Mainstreet]

Melton really hasn't shown anything this year.

Even bad players have one or two good games over the course of the season. I cant really think of one for Melton.

Neither Melton or Okobo have shown much as rookies but both of them have guaranteed contracts for next season. Maybe one gets included in a trade.

 

[SirStefan32]

The more I think about it, the more I think Jackson's problem is not low basketball IQ. His defense and passing suggest he understands the game. His problem appears to be that he can't slow down consistently. He is fine until he gets frustrated. Once he gets frustrated he starts doing some really stupid things. He is like a polar opposite of Bender who does stupid things when he slows down and plays well when he stops thinking about every move.

I really don't know what to make of JJ. I am trying to think of another player who had that issue, and I really can't come up with one.

 

[Hoop Head]

Neither Melton or Okobo have shown much as rookies but both of them have guaranteed contracts for next season. Maybe one gets included in a trade.

Their contracts are less than $1 million each so whether they get traded or waived I don't think management is too worried either way. The Suns had Davon Reed and Canaan on guaranteed deals last offseason and they waived them also. I'm not sure if Okobo or Melton would draw much attention on their own but they might be thrown into a deal in place of a future 2nd round pick or something.

 

[AzStevenCal]

Benders issue is that he doesnt really move the needle in any direction. Hes a bump on the log.

Stats suggest Jackson is different; he actively makes decisions that lose games. That's worse than Bender.

I think Bender costs us a lot more than Jackson does if you equalize the playing time (in 2 seasons Josh has logged 400+ minutes more than Dragan has in his 3 years). When the offense works to put someone in a position to make a wide open 3 and then the guy that's open passes out of that shot (with much of the shot clock now gone), that's making decisions that lead to lost games and that's been Bender's calling card. It just doesn't show up in individual stats.

I think playing time is critical for a player's development but I also believe we have rushed this with both players. So far really, neither player has earned the minutes they've received and that's been a real problem. It's not their fault that we need them to be ready to play long before they are although in Jackson's case, it shouldn't have been unreasonable to expect more consistency from him. Bender just shouldn't have been drafted, he came into the league without any NBA level skills (just physical gifts).

 

[Hoop Head]

The more I think about it, the more I think Jackson's problem is not low basketball IQ. His defense and passing suggest he understands the game. His problem appears to be that he can't slow down consistently. He is fine until he gets frustrated. Once he gets frustrated he starts doing some really stupid things. He is like a polar opposite of Bender who does stupid things when he slows down and plays well when he stops thinking about every move.

I really don't know what to make of JJ. I am trying to think of another player who had that issue, and I really can't come up with one.

I want to say Richard Dumas was similar but he had such a small window I'm not sure if that would be accurate or not. He had Barkley to keep him in line also and we don't have that guy to be Jackson's Barkley.

 

[Mainstreet]

The more I think about it, the more I think Jackson's problem is not low basketball IQ. His defense and passing suggest he understands the game. His problem appears to be that he can't slow down consistently. He is fine until he gets frustrated. Once he gets frustrated he starts doing some really stupid things. He is like a polar opposite of Bender who does stupid things when he slows down and plays well when he stops thinking about every move.

I really don't know what to make of JJ. I am trying to think of another player who had that issue, and I really can't come up with one.

Unfortunately Jackson is not a good shooter and his career free throw percentage (.651) tends to confirm it.

I've tried to figure out a better way to use him. He might be more effective playing closer to the basket but I don't know if he can physically mature into a power forward.

 

[95pro]

JJ is in a tough spot now. Booker is the primary scorer from the guard spot. Ayton has center locked down. Oubre seems to be our wing of the future. JJ doesn't quite have a role yet, not long or big enough to be a wing, not a strong shooter to be a 2 and some bad decisions as pg. He has the defense and will/drive, just needs that shot to fall. Hopefully he can improve his shot like TJ did.

 

[SirStefan32]

He needs to figure out how to play as the fourth option. He needs to play defense, make SIMPLE passes, and knock down open threes. I don't have the stats, but post-all star break, I think his percentage on catch and shoot threes has been decent, at least according to my eye test. Problem is that he gets frustrated and then starts playing as if though he thinks he is Booker. That's the key with JJ- he needs to slow down and play his game. I just don't know how you either teach or learn that.

 

[Mainstreet]

He needs to figure out how to play as the fourth option. He needs to play defense, make SIMPLE passes, and knock down open threes. I don't have the stats, but post-all star break, I think his percentage on catch and shoot threes has been decent, at least according to my eye test. Problem is that he gets frustrated and then starts playing as if though he thinks he is Booker. That's the key with JJ- he needs to slow down and play his game. I just don't know how you either teach or learn that.

As I think you mentioned on another post, Jackson is probably destined to be a role player.

 

[Mainstreet]

Their contracts are less than $1 million each so whether they get traded or waived I don't think management is too worried either way. The Suns had Davon Reed and Canaan on guaranteed deals last offseason and they waived them also. I'm not sure if Okobo or Melton would draw much attention on their own but they might be thrown into a deal in place of a future 2nd round pick or something.

I keep thinking if the Suns make a trade for a point guard, they might include him going the other way. Often trades include a player that can play the same position.

Of course Johnson might serve the same role if the Suns trade for a point guard with a larger contract.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

He needs to figure out how to play as the fourth option. He needs to play defense, make SIMPLE passes, and knock down open threes. I don't have the stats, but post-all star break, I think his percentage on catch and shoot threes has been decent, at least according to my eye test. Problem is that he gets frustrated and then starts playing as if though he thinks he is Booker. That's the key with JJ- he needs to slow down and play his game. I just don't know how you either teach or learn that.

He's shooting 37% on threes since the all star break and that was at 38% prior to the Memphis game (not sure about the numbers off the catch, but I would imagine a little better than that).

As to the playing too fast thing, that is a big part of the reason that I think he is still going to get a lot better. Maybe he will never be an all star caliber player, but he is going to round into being a very good rotational player within the next couple seasons and may still get better from there.

 

[JCSunsfan]

He's shooting 37% on threes since the all star break and that was at 38% prior to the Memphis game (not sure about the numbers off the catch, but I would imagine a little better than that).

As to the playing too fast thing, that is a big part of the reason that I think he is still going to get a lot better. Maybe he will never be an all star caliber player, but he is going to round into being a very good rotational player within the next couple seasons and may still get better from there.

Is he going to be better than Oubre? I just do not see the point in having both of them, along with Bridges.

 

[SirStefan32]

Is he going to be better than Oubre? I just do not see the point in having both of them, along with Bridges.

I agree, but I think the question is whether or not you trade him now or wait for him to get better, at which point you can reevaluate JJ vs. Oubre vs. Bridges.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

Is he going to be better than Oubre? I just do not see the point in having both of them, along with Bridges.

He might be. He's a little more athletic, about as effective of a shooter, better passer and has more defensive upside.

I just don't see the point in trading him unless it is needed to bring in a good PF or PG in return. Otherwise just keep him around as part of a 4 man wing rotation with Booker, Bridges and Oubre.

Warren is the odd man out to me because his skill set is redundant with Oubre, who also does other things better than Warren.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I want to say Richard Dumas was similar but he had such a small window I'm not sure if that would be accurate or not. He had Barkley to keep him in line also and we don't have that guy to be Jackson's Barkley.

You apparently have a far different recollection of Dumas than I do. He had a tremendous rookie season for us IMO. Jackson has been a turnover machine since his first game and I don't remember Dumas having that kind of problem at all. I guess you could point to the fact they both played with energy but that's about the only similarity that comes to mind. Note that I am only talking about his rookie season, he ceases to exist (for me) from that point on as he was suspended the next year and never returned to form.

 

[AzStevenCal]

He might be. He's a little more athletic, about as effective of a shooter, better passer and has more defensive upside.

I just don't see the point in trading him unless it is needed to bring in a good PF or PG in return. Otherwise just keep him around as part of a 4 man wing rotation with Booker, Bridges and Oubre.

Warren is the odd man out to me because his skill set is redundant with Oubre, who also does other things better than Warren.

I see no point in trading Jackson but it's because I see no reason to expect value in return for him. But I do see reasons to trade him as we are almost always worse with him in the game. Still, he shows far more potential than the Jackson "haters" acknowledge and he doesn't cost that much so as long as we more closely regulate his minutes, I'm for keeping him at least until his time runs out here (2 more seasons and then decision time). But if I'm wrong and someone actually covets him and offers us something we want, I'd move him even before Warren.

 

[Proximo]

I see no point in trading Jackson but it's because I see no reason to expect value in return for him. But I do see reasons to trade him as we are almost always worse with him in the game. Still, he shows far more potential than the Jackson "haters" acknowledge and he doesn't cost that much so as long as we more closely regulate his minutes, I'm for keeping him at least until his time runs out here (2 more seasons and then decision time). But if I'm wrong and someone actually covets him and offers us something we want, I'd move him even before Warren.

The reason to trade him is, can we utilize the cap space more effectively since it is limited - and we don't have much available.

 

[AzStevenCal]

The reason to trade him is, can we utilize the cap space more effectively since it is limited - and we don't have much available.

There are far better ways to get the space if we find we need it and we just aren't that likely to need it IMO. His 7 and then 8 million is almost inconsequential especially since moving him opens a roster spot that will then cost money to fill. I don't find it likely that we could actually trade him (by himself) for a player we'd actually want.

 

[Hoop Head]

You apparently have a far different recollection of Dumas than I do. He had a tremendous rookie season for us IMO. Jackson has been a turnover machine since his first game and I don't remember Dumas having that kind of problem at all. I guess you could point to the fact they both played with energy but that's about the only similarity that comes to mind. Note that I am only talking about his rookie season, he ceases to exist (for me) from that point on as he was suspended the next year and never returned to form.

Jackson reminds me of Dumas when he's playing well and Archie when he's not. He's got all of the natural ability that an athlete could dream of but he struggles to apply it. Of course Dumas pissed his career away while Jackson just seems to be letting his pass him by. Dumas was never off like Jackson as far as being off for multiple games like that but he also had veterans surrounding him so he didn't need to try and shoulder more than he was capable of. Jackson on the other hand tries to be "The Man" far too often and the only player he defers to is Booker. I can see some similarities between Dumas and JJ but you're right in that Dumas was amazing during his rookie year but he was also an older rookie at that point. Jackson only seems to mirror that in the 4-5 game stretches where he silences all of his critics and then once he gets cut some slack he turns back into a turnover machine that takes bad shots.

I don't recall Dumas being as ball dominant as Jackson as far as creating for others but when it comes to their scorings and the plays they're able to make to get their own shot I think they're more similar than different.

 

[Hoop Head]

The reason to trade him is, can we utilize the cap space more effectively since it is limited - and we don't have much available.

We need to quit trading players to make cap space until our cap space is spent. It's like the year we dumped Marcus Morris and Bullock on Detroit for nothing in return because we wanted to sign Aldridge, instead we signed Chandler and that was it, with him replacing Marcus and Bullock basically.

 

[AzStevenCal]

We need to quit trading players to make cap space until our cap space is spent. It's like the year we dumped Marcus Morris and Bullock on Detroit for nothing in return because we wanted to sign Aldridge, instead we signed Chandler and that was it, with him replacing Marcus and Bullock basically.

I agree although I'm pretty sure we'd have traded Marcus that offseason regardless. But we probably wouldn't have just given him away like we did and maybe it wouldn't have been such an abrupt move, leading as it did, to all the public friction between the Suns and the Morris triplets. (With all that noise, I figure there had to be at least 3 of them)

 

[JCSunsfan]

There are far better ways to get the space if we find we need it and we just aren't that likely to need it IMO. His 7 and then 8 million is almost inconsequential especially since moving him opens a roster spot that will then cost money to fill. I don't find it likely that we could actually trade him (by himself) for a player we'd actually want.

I don't get this reasoning. We can use that roster money to fill the spot with a player we want.

 

[JCSunsfan]

We need to quit trading players to make cap space until our cap space is spent. It's like the year we dumped Marcus Morris and Bullock on Detroit for nothing in return because we wanted to sign Aldridge, instead we signed Chandler and that was it, with him replacing Marcus and Bullock basically.

I would agree with this with one condition. We need to quit trading players we would otherwise want to keep. I don't think they WANTED Morris. Bullock either.

 

[AzStevenCal]

I don't get this reasoning. We can use that roster money to fill the spot with a player we want.

That's true of everyone on the roster, not just JJ. If we don't want him (and I mean the people that make decisions), then fine, dump him in whatever way works best. But if we still think he has a reasonable shot (10% chance for example as opposed to 1 in a million) at maturing into a player of value, just replacing him with another 7 million dollar scrub makes no sense. IOW, don't get rid of him simply to open cap space or a roster spot. He has very little value around the league IMO but we're already invested in him so keeping him makes more sense for us than acquiring him would for other teams (most likely).

 

[JCSunsfan]

That's true of everyone on the roster, not just JJ. If we don't want him (and I mean the people that make decisions), then fine, dump him in whatever way works best. But if we still think he has a reasonable shot (10% chance for example as opposed to 1 in a million) at maturing into a player of value, just replacing him with another 7 million dollar scrub makes no sense. IOW, don't get rid of him simply to open cap space or a roster spot. He has very little value around the league IMO but we're already invested in him so keeping him makes more sense for us than acquiring him would for other teams (most likely).

I doubt they are looking for $7 million players in free agency. They are looking for a quality veteran pg. The rest will be minimum signings. That is my guess anyway.