Have You Seen Us? - Week 2 Edition

[RugbyMuffin]

We employed a very odd set today on D, I'd be very interested to see the total number of snaps Carter and Dan got today.

We actually have been using the 2-4-5 setup since last year.

Dan didn't get a bunch of snaps.

Sent from Rugbymuffin's Super Phone

 

[Chopper0080]

Despite all what?

We are talking about players that don't or barely see the field for Pete's sake. Forrest from the trees in full effect here.

Despite my arse. We won because the players that are getting the job done and beat out others for their spot on the field and in the game plan are getting the job done.

Who cares if who is out on the field doesn't line a up perfectly with the Cardinals accounting department or a players' draft position. The best players to get the job done are out on the field getting in done.

We found a pot of gold and we are worrying about scratches on tje coins.

I have no problem with the topic of this thread and to add to it I still have not given up on Stewart Bradley & think Lenon is better than given credit for.

But come on. Lets keep a frame of reference. K9's list is a bunch of role players

Sent from Rugbymuffin's Super Phone

Yet some of these players were supposed to be key contributors to the Cards this year.

O'Brian Schofield: Being tabbed as the Cards most athletic pass rush threat from the OLB position. Year to learn the defense. No more excuses. Being out-played by a vet free agent who was cut.

Rob Housler: Pass catching threat up the middle who would burns teams rolling coverage over Fitz. He has not progressed at the rate most woudl prefer.

Ryan Williams: Better than Wells, and a more natural runner. The answer to our backup runningback question. Not very special in two games so far, and is putting the ball on the turf.

What I am most proud of is the Cardinals have produced a roster deep enough to overcome these issues. While people were calling to cut Heap, replace Wells, and complaining about Groves, the Cardinals have quietly held fast and trusted the talent of the players who were brought in. So not only have the Cardinals made efforts to bring in top players, but they also have been effectively hedging their bets by bringing in quality depth as well.

Have I given up on these guys? Nope, but I still cling to the idea of what happens when they start contributing more? How deep is our roster then? Is the sky then the limit?

 

[kerouac9]

Why do you guys feed his enormous ego by responding to this non-sensical thread? We all know Bradley was bad signing. K9 obviously needs his ego fed and wants to stell evryone he predicted the Cards would win.

I predicted Quentin Groves would be the surprise player of the year and that Fleming would be starting early on. I may start a thread saying look at me, look at me, I was right, I was right, Look at me. I'll break down coach's tape and get back to you. I guess some people are really important.

Quentin Groves has been awesome. Let's see Fleming play more than a game and a half.

How about that Alex Smith, huh? Boy, that kid sure blows. No chance that he was mis-treated by a bunch of unprofessional coaching staffs. On ESPN Football Today last week, Ross Tucker said that after talking to people around the league, he believes that Mike Singletary might be the worst head coach ever.

 

[Mulli]

Hey K9, our Kent Somers discussion made watching the game yesterday interesting. One minute I was right, then you were right, then I was. Then I don't care anymore because at least it added something to watching the game.

Then, I watched the Lions try to run against the 9ers in the first half, and it didn't seem to work.

So as much as we argue, it is all in good fun. Now how do you manage to listen to Ross Tucker, ugh.

 

[Mulli]

Quentin Groves has been awesome. Let's see Fleming play more than a game and a half.

How about that Alex Smith, huh? Boy, that kid sure blows. No chance that he was mis-treated by a bunch of unprofessional coaching staffs. On ESPN Football Today last week, Ross Tucker said that after talking to people around the league, he believes that Mike Singletary might be the worst head coach ever.

Did you hear Collinsworth quote Alex Smith as saying previous coaches told him that a sack was as bad as a pick?

I was as right about Singletary being terrible as I was wrong about Harbaugh being terrible. But I think my Harbaugh pick was just wishful thinking.

 

[Duckjake]

Quentin Groves has been awesome. Let's see Fleming play more than a game and a half.

How about that Alex Smith, huh? Boy, that kid sure blows. No chance that he was mis-treated by a bunch of unprofessional coaching staffs. On ESPN Football Today last week, Ross Tucker said that after talking to people around the league, he believes that Mike Singletary might be the worst head coach ever.

Those people around the league must have never seen any of McGinnis' teams.

Fleming has already done things that we haven't seen from Cardinal CBs in a long time. Mix it up at the los on run plays and break up a pass without getting called for PI. Did you see how Fleming was actually looking back for the football?!? That's new and different.

 

[Mulli]

Those people around the league must have never seen any of McGinnis' teams.

Fleming has already done things that we haven't seen from Cardinal CBs in a long time. Mix it up at the los on run plays and break up a pass without getting called for PI. Did you see how Fleming was actually looking back for the football?!? That's new and different.

Ya, doesn't he know the Arizona Cardinal CB way of not looking back for the ball?

 

[crisper57]

Have you seen me? My name is Bobby Massie. And since my name wasn't called all day long, that means I did my job.

 

[football karma]

Those people around the league must have never seen any of McGinnis' teams.

Fleming has already done things that we haven't seen from Cardinal CBs in a long time. Mix it up at the los on run plays and break up a pass without getting called for PI. Did you see how Fleming was actually looking back for the football?!? That's new and different.

many years ago played in a charity golf tourney with an NFL defensive backs coach

he said that while there are lots of players who have the speed and athleticism to play corner, there is a small subset of those players who have the key talent: awareness of the ball.

called it gift -- they have or they dont. Fleming looks like he has it

 

[kerouac9]

Hey K9, our Kent Somers discussion made watching the game yesterday interesting. One minute I was right, then you were right, then I was. Then I don't care anymore because at least it added something to watching the game.

Then, I watched the Lions try to run against the 9ers in the first half, and it didn't seem to work.

So as much as we argue, it is all in good fun. Now how do you manage to listen to Ross Tucker, ugh.

Discussions on this board always make the games more interesting for me. As long as the discussions hang on football, I'm fine with it. I'm really not down on getting flamed or personally attacked. Since I'm the one it happens to, and it doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the board, I report to let the admins know that they're there, and I don't think that Skorp would've appreciated it on his board. I don't want to continue personal attacks. I've learned my lesson in that department. I've put Canuck on "ignore", which helps. I couldn't remember seeing a football post from him in a very long time, so that was an easy choice. Shane has been allowed to become maybe the most aggressive poster on the board, which I think lowers the discourse for everyone, but I can't help the mods' decision-making except to point out when things go awry and he seems (to me) to be stepping over a line.

As DD would say, you're cool with me, homie.

Anyway, I don't care if I'm right as long as we're winning. If the coaching staff isn't listening to me and we're losing, I'm a little more angry. I think we ran the ball too much, but I have to see the tape to see what was available in the passing game. I wish we ran Beanie more, too. Hopefully, Ryan Williams's stuggles suggest to the coaching staff that the share should be more 65/35 than the 50/50 we've been seeing.

I have three kids under three years old right now; I'm lucky if I get to watch 3/4 of a Cardinals game live-ish. I wish that I could watch more of the NFL, but those are the breaks. We have a better running back group than Detroit does, though, IMO.

I have a long commute in the morning and evening, and my radio is busted for some reason, so Tucker and ESPN Football Today give me something to kind of pay attention to 5 days a week instead of the just one that I get from the vastly superior Hang Up and Listen podcast (which is super-dope). Tucker sometimes has cool insights if you're able to screen out all the hogwash and nonsense, and it's the one national program that I get during the week. It's not perfect, but that's the format of the podcast. I like it better than the Rich Eisen podcast, which has some of the same back-and-forth, but includes a pretty weak celebrity element that I don't care for.

 

[kerouac9]

Those people around the league must have never seen any of McGinnis' teams.

Fleming has already done things that we haven't seen from Cardinal CBs in a long time. Mix it up at the los on run plays and break up a pass without getting called for PI. Did you see how Fleming was actually looking back for the football?!? That's new and different.

To be fair, McGinnis was an awful coach, but his teams were legitimately talentless, as well. He shares blame with a front office who was making bad decisions.

Singletary was holding back a team that legitimately could've been putting up double-digit wins almost the entire time he was there and had the added benefit of being a loudmouth who was, IMO, a clear step down from his predecessor, Mike Nolan (a DC that I really like).

Fleming has looked good, but he's only played 5 quarters so far. I'm really excited about him, even though he's a Sooner like my in-laws. I hope that he continues to progress. With him, Peterson, and William Gay (who really showed me something turning Wes Welker into a pouty baby all day), this secondary is just beastly.

 

[Mulli]

Hey, Welker, Giselle was right. Brady can only throw the ball, feel free to not let passes go right through your hands.

 

[Russ Smith]

Did you hear Collinsworth quote Alex Smith as saying previous coaches told him that a sack was as bad as a pick?

I was as right about Singletary being terrible as I was wrong about Harbaugh being terrible. But I think my Harbaugh pick was just wishful thinking.

They were actually talking about that quote in the local media apparently Collinsworth got it slightly wrong. As in that was one coach, Singletary probably that told Smith that.

I was laughing when Cris said it on air, they used to regularly tell us during 49er telecasts that the coaching staff/OC was encouraging Smith to run more and not throw the ball up for grabs that sometimes it's better to take the sack and live to fight another day. the idea that every coach he played for before Harbaugh was an idiot is just hindsight.

It just took him longer to pick things up. Remember his college coach openly stated that until he fully grasps the system he's going to struggle. The proble is in the NFL oftentimes if a #1 overall pick struggles, the OC gets fired. So everytime he failed to grasp the system, they got a new OC and a new system for him to fail to grasp. He's been in the league long enough now he figured things out, how much he had to work, and with Harbaughs system putting him in much better situations he's now thriving.

He looks like a totally different player but to say his prior seasons were all the fault of bad coaching is hindsight, he made a lot of coaches look bad too. It was a 2 way street.

Note, Singletary is exempt from that he was terrible.

 

[Mulli]

They were actually talking about that quote in the local media apparently Collinsworth got it slightly wrong. As in that was one coach, Singletary probably that told Smith that.

I was laughing when Cris said it on air, they used to regularly tell us during 49er telecasts that the coaching staff/OC was encouraging Smith to run more and not throw the ball up for grabs that sometimes it's better to take the sack and live to fight another day. the idea that every coach he played for before Harbaugh was an idiot is just hindsight.

It just took him longer to pick things up. Remember his college coach openly stated that until he fully grasps the system he's going to struggle. The proble is in the NFL oftentimes if a #1 overall pick struggles, the OC gets fired. So everytime he failed to grasp the system, they got a new OC and a new system for him to fail to grasp. He's been in the league long enough now he figured things out, how much he had to work, and with Harbaughs system putting him in much better situations he's now thriving.

He looks like a totally different player but to say his prior seasons were all the fault of bad coaching is hindsight, he made a lot of coaches look bad too. It was a 2 way street.

Note, Singletary is exempt from that he was terrible.

Ya, I seem to recall some of those coaches he had having some serious success elsewhere. Norv, the guy in GB, Martz (who is a dope most of the time).

 

[Shane]

Discussions on this board always make the games more interesting for me. As long as the discussions hang on football, I'm fine with it. I'm really not down on getting flamed or personally attacked. Since I'm the one it happens to, and it doesn't seem to be in the spirit of the board, I report to let the admins know that they're there, and I don't think that Skorp would've appreciated it on his board. I don't want to continue personal attacks. I've learned my lesson in that department. I've put Canuck on "ignore", which helps. I couldn't remember seeing a football post from him in a very long time, so that was an easy choice. Shane has been allowed to become maybe the most aggressive poster on the board, which I think lowers the discourse for everyone, but I can't help the mods' decision-making except to point out when things go awry and he seems (to me) to be stepping over a line.

As DD would say, you're cool with me, homie.

Anyway, I don't care if I'm right as long as we're winning. If the coaching staff isn't listening to me and we're losing, I'm a little more angry. I think we ran the ball too much, but I have to see the tape to see what was available in the passing game. I wish we ran Beanie more, too. Hopefully, Ryan Williams's stuggles suggest to the coaching staff that the share should be more 65/35 than the 50/50 we've been seeing.

I have three kids under three years old right now; I'm lucky if I get to watch 3/4 of a Cardinals game live-ish. I wish that I could watch more of the NFL, but those are the breaks. We have a better running back group than Detroit does, though, IMO.

I have a long commute in the morning and evening, and my radio is busted for some reason, so Tucker and ESPN Football Today give me something to kind of pay attention to 5 days a week instead of the just one that I get from the vastly superior Hang Up and Listen podcast (which is super-dope). Tucker sometimes has cool insights if you're able to screen out all the hogwash and nonsense, and it's the one national program that I get during the week. It's not perfect, but that's the format of the podcast. I like it better than the Rich Eisen podcast, which has some of the same back-and-forth, but includes a pretty wea
k celebrity element that I don't care for.

Yea because I'm so much more aggressive than you the king of the drive by pot shot. You calling anyone out for that type of behavior is ripe Wow! I'll give you your props. You are knowledgeable and provide a lot to the board. That's why I pmed you upon your reinstatement from your well deserved lifetime ban welcoming you back and told you it was good to gave you back lest you forget. But please... Don't act like you are all innocent and not one of the most smug, pompous and aggressive posters on the board. Still glad your here though!

 

[kerouac9]

Ya, I seem to recall some of those coaches he had having some serious success elsewhere. Norv, the guy in GB, Martz (who is a dope most of the time).

To be fair to Smith, "the guy in GB"--head coach Mike McCarthy--was only there for one year--when Smith clearly wasn't ready to play and was legitimately terrible.

Turner was only with Alex Smith for one year--the year that Alex Smith early in his career illustrated he could be a league-average quarterback at least (2006, 58.1%, 16 TDs, 16 INTs, 6.5 YPA). Then Turner got hired as San Diego's head coach.

Martz hasn't been good for a long while now. His offense can be productive, but the NFL figured him out five years ago, which is why you don't see guys like him and Saunders coaching anymore.

Smith is going to have to come back to earth a little bit, but he's had above 80 QB ratings three years before this one, and hasn't had a season where he's thrown more INTs than TDs since 2007.

Yes, that's kind of damning with faint praise a former #1 overall pick, but people under-estimated this kid, and he wasn't put in a position to succeed for a while.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

Yea because I'm so much more aggressive than you the king of the drive by pot shot. You calling anyone out for that type of behavior is ripe Wow! I'll give you your props. You are knowledgeable and provide a lot to the board. That's why I pmed you upon your reinstatement from your well deserved lifetime ban welcoming you back and told you it was good to gave you back lest you forget. But please... Don't act like you are innocent and one of the most smug, pompous and aggressive posters on the board. Still glad your here though!

How he gets his head out the door is a wonder.

 

[Mulli]

So which OC are we talking about? Did Norv and McCarthy fail in coaching him? I suppose it was probably Martz. And who cares, it is SF.

And Smith had some serious troubles with some sweet field position in the fourth quarter of the NFC championship that year.

 

[kerouac9]

So which OC are we talking about? Did Norv and McCarthy fail in coaching him? I suppose it was probably Martz. And who cares, it is SF.

And Smith had some serious troubles with some sweet field position in the fourth quarter of the NFC championship that year.

I think that Mike Nolan didn't have patience with him and tried to force him back onto the field when he was injured. Russ can tell you about the incredibly contentious relationship between Nolan and his first #1 overall pick. We've seen with Whis and Leinart the way that can set back a franchise for a few years.

Yeah, Mike Martz is one OC, but Jimmy Raye (I think he was picked up out of a high school staff or something after Singletary brought the ax down Martz) didn't do a good job managing Smith, and then he suffered a hostile takeover mid-season by Mike Johnson, the San Francisco QB coach.

Yeah, Smith didn't have a good game in that NFC Championship game, but he was also playing a pretty good defense that gave some QBs some problems. Smith didn't make the throws he needed to make that week, although he did the year before.

I don't think that Alex Smith is a Top 7 or 8 QB, but I never really did. But I think he's entered the conversation with Matt Schaub, Tony Romo, and Jay Cutler as guys that are debateable for being at the bottom of the Top 10 QBs, and has clearly separated himself from guys that I kind of like that will earn you 7-9 wins per season like Matt Cassel and Mark Sanchez.

 

[Mulli]

I think that Mike Nolan didn't have patience with him and tried to force him back onto the field when he was injured. Russ can tell you about the incredibly contentious relationship between Nolan and his first #1 overall pick. We've seen with Whis and Leinart the way that can set back a franchise for a few years.

Yeah, Mike Martz is one OC, but Jimmy Raye (I think he was picked up out of a high school staff or something after Singletary brought the ax down Martz) didn't do a good job managing Smith, and then he suffered a hostile takeover mid-season by Mike Johnson, the San Francisco QB coach.

Yeah, Smith didn't have a good game in that NFC Championship game, but he was also playing a pretty good defense that gave some QBs some problems. Smith didn't make the throws he needed to make that week, although he did the year before.

I don't think that Alex Smith is a Top 7 or 8 QB, but I never really did. But I think he's entered the conversation with Matt Schaub, Tony Romo, and Jay Cutler as guys that are debateable for being at the bottom of the Top 10 QBs, and has clearly separated himself from guys that I kind of like that will earn you 7-9 wins per season like Matt Cassel and Mark Sanchez.

Forgot about Raye. Thanks.

 

[D-Dogg]

The worst thing that happened to the Cardinals was Singletary getting fired. He basically made the division easier by himself. What a clown. Too bad SF wised up.

 

[Russ Smith]

To be fair to Smith, "the guy in GB"--head coach Mike McCarthy--was only there for one year--when Smith clearly wasn't ready to play and was legitimately terrible.

Turner was only with Alex Smith for one year--the year that Alex Smith early in his career illustrated he could be a league-average quarterback at least (2006, 58.1%, 16 TDs, 16 INTs, 6.5 YPA). Then Turner got hired as San Diego's head coach.

Martz hasn't been good for a long while now. His offense can be productive, but the NFL figured him out five years ago, which is why you don't see guys like him and Saunders coaching anymore.

Smith is going to have to come back to earth a little bit, but he's had above 80 QB ratings three years before this one, and hasn't had a season where he's thrown more INTs than TDs since 2007.

Yes, that's kind of damning with faint praise a former #1 overall pick, but people under-estimated this kid, and he wasn't put in a position to succeed for a while.

My understanding is Martz is out of the league because of his heart condition? He had problems with it back in his Rams days and I know it was reported when he retired that one of the reasons he had apparently turned down college jobs(reportedly ASU) was he was concerned about his health.

Note the Bears didn't get rid of Martz, he retired with his 2 year contract expiring. I don't know if they were going to ask him to stay on or not don't follow the Bears closely, but they didn't can him.

McCarthy was his first OC it was his rookie year. Norv one year, then Jim Hostler who put in an offense specifically tailored to Alex, they took some of the WC stuff from McCarthy, and some of the stuff from Norv to try and help Alex, didn't work. next year he didn't play Martz went with a guy who knew his offense(O'Sullivan) and then Alex had shoulder surgery. hard to blame Martz for that year since he never actually coached Alex in any games.

Then Nolan gone they brought in Jimmy Raye, Shaun Hill beat him out then lost the job and Singletary proclaimed Alex the man. Next year same OC, 0-5 start, fired the OC(instead of the coach that should have been fired, Singletary) and they hired Mike JOhnson who took the fall for Singletary's stupid offense.

Admittedly he never had a great stable situation. If Turner didn't leave maybe he would have, if McCarthy doesn't get a better job maybe he would have, but he wasn't just a victim he got several OC's fired along the way before he figured it all out.

Harbaugh figured out what Alex can do and lets him do it, what he can't do and doesn't let him do it. It sounds incredibly simple but that's really it IMO.

I have to really credit Harbaugh, he brought in moss and Manningham but he hasn't lost his mind, he's still running the ball and has Smith throwing screens, short crossing routes and does everything he can to create matchup advantages.
Smith almost never has to make difficult throws, and to his credit when he does, he's been making them.

totally different player but his early struggles were on him just as much as on the changing coaches.

 

[CardsSunsDbacks]

We should care because we want to keep winning. I'm happy, but not blind.

My point is that players have bad games and if they cost the team a win then by all means they should be called out. Also pointing out trends like play-calling for instance is good to point out win or loss, but I just don't feel like there is a point in calling out every guy that had a bad game when the team won the game.

 

[kerouac9]

My point is that players have bad games and if they cost the team a win then by all means they should be called out. Also pointing out trends like play-calling for instance is good to point out win or loss, but I just don't feel like there is a point in calling out every guy that had a bad game when the team won the game.

I guarantee you that's not what's happening on Hardy Drive right now. I guarantee you that coaches and players know that you're never as good as you look after a win, and you are never as bad as you look after a loss. What was the first thing that every player and coach said yesterday? It was good to win, but we left a lot of plays out on the field that we should have made.

It should be pretty clear what's going on in these threads. As I said, if you don't want to hear it, don't click through. Or don't reply. I don't reply to tons of threads where I don't feel like I have anything constructive to add to the conversation.

Our 2011 third-round pick is on pace for 8 catches for 56 yards this year. That's a problem when we put resources into the position and we're depending on production from it.

Todd Heap got an MRI on his knee this morning.

Our 2011 second-round pick is averaging 1.3 YPC on the season with two fumbles. Our highlight 2011 defensive free agent signing is a total non-factor, and has been surpassed on the depth chart by a former undrafted free agent.

This thread isn't about calling out guys who had a "bad game". We won the game where we were 13.5 point underdogs. No one had a bad game, IMO. This thread is about keeping track of big talent investments who don't get off the airplane. These guys are going to have to be contributors.

 

[Russ Smith]

I guarantee you that's not what's happening on Hardy Drive right now. I guarantee you that coaches and players know that you're never as good as you look after a win, and you are never as bad as you look after a loss. What was the first thing that every player and coach said yesterday? It was good to win, but we left a lot of plays out on the field that we should have made.

It should be pretty clear what's going on in these threads. As I said, if you don't want to hear it, don't click through. Or don't reply. I don't reply to tons of threads where I don't feel like I have anything constructive to add to the conversation.

Our 2011 third-round pick is on pace for 8 catches for 56 yards this year. That's a problem when we put resources into the position and we're depending on production from it.

Todd Heap got an MRI on his knee this morning.

Our 2011 second-round pick is averaging 1.3 YPC on the season with two fumbles. Our highlight 2011 defensive free agent signing is a total non-factor, and has been surpassed on the depth chart by a former undrafted free agent.

This thread isn't about calling out guys who had a "bad game". We won the game where we were 13.5 point underdogs. No one had a bad game, IMO. This thread is about keeping track of big talent investments who don't get off the airplane. These guys are going to have to be contributors.

I'm betting the folks on Hardy Drive weren't telling the players on the plane ride home they were invisible which is sort of what you did here.

There's a "slant" to your posting style though. Housler yes 8 catches if you just say 2 games one catch. But that's one wya of looking. Another is barely played week 1 listed injured, barely played week 2 but when he HAD to come in, he made a big catch. he was also wide open on another one but Kolb didn't see him. You see 1 catch in 2 games as a trend, maybe the trend is 1 catch in about a quarter of one game actually being on the field? Maybe if Heap is out a few games Housler will get more PT and get more catches?


It seems to me most of the objections were your timing, not your actual message.

If I really wanted to complain about something after yesterday it would be that Floyd is doing nothing but hurting us so far and we sure could have used an OL with that pick. But I get he is a rookie and with more time will get better.