Have You Seen Us? - Week 2 Edition

[kerouac9]

That is why you don't spend first round picks on defense that won't play in your nickel scheme.

Same goes on offense. IF they don't pay on 3rd down, don't draft them in the first round.

Yeah, Vince Wilfork was hardly a presence out there on Sunday.

http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/years/2010

That's the 2010 draft class. Whom would you have preferred to have that was available? Jerry Hughes? Jahvid Best? The need for a legitimate NT was dire, and you only really get dominant NTs in the first couple of rounds of the draft.

I have absolutely no problem drafting Dan Williams.

 

[Chopper0080]

Yeah, Vince Wilfork was hardly a presence out there on Sunday.

http://www.drafthistory.com/index.php/years/2010

That's the 2010 draft class. Whom would you have preferred to have that was available? Jerry Hughes? Jahvid Best? The need for a legitimate NT was dire, and you only really get dominant NTs in the first couple of rounds of the draft.

I have absolutely no problem drafting Dan Williams.

Wilfork plays on passing downs, Dan Williams doesn't. Hell, give me Sean Lee in the first and Daryl Washington in the 2nd and we are set at ILB for the near future.

NT are a dying breed in the NFL these days, unless they are versatile enough to rush the passer.

Here are the 3-4 NT's in the NFL

NY Jets - Sione Pouha, 3rd rnd, 2005

Pittsburgh - Casey Hampton, 1st rnd, 2001

Houston - Shaun Cody, 2nd rnd, 2005 (by Detroit)

Indy - Antonio Johnson, 5th rnd, 2007 (Tennessee)

KC - Dontari Poe, 1st rnd, 2012

San Diego - Antonio Garay, 6th rnd 2003 (Cleveland / Aubrayo Franklin, 5th rnd 2003, (by Baltimore)

Green Bay - BJ Raji, 1st rnd, 2009

Washington - Barry Cofield, 4th rnd, 2006 (New York Giants)

Dallas - Jay Ratliff, 7th rnd, 2005

San Fran - Issac Sopoaga, 4th rnd, 2004

Baltimore - Maake Kemoeatu, undrafted

Arizona - Dan Williams, 1st rnd, 2010


New England lists as a 4-3, but I would give you Wilfork if you wanted. With New England, there are 13 3-4 teams in the NFL. 5 of those teams have used 1st round picks on NTs which totals just under 39%. In two games in 2012, there are 5 3-4 teams in the top 10 in the NFL vs. the run. Of those teams (San Diego, New England, San Francisco, Houston, Washington) only 1 has a NT on it who was drafted in the first round. So, I believe you can find effective NTs in other rounds than the first.

 

[40yearfan]

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Whoa!!! Is that our new DT?

 

[Crazy Canuck]

With Philly having lost their starting centre, I would imagine that Dumpster Dan will be part of the 'push up the middle' plan for this week.

 

[kerouac9]

New England lists as a 4-3, but I would give you Wilfork if you wanted. With New England, there are 13 3-4 teams in the NFL. 5 of those teams have used 1st round picks on NTs which totals just under 39%. In two games in 2012, there are 5 3-4 teams in the top 10 in the NFL vs. the run. Of those teams (San Diego, New England, San Francisco, Houston, Washington) only 1 has a NT on it who was drafted in the first round. So, I believe you can find effective NTs in other rounds than the first.

I think that 2010 will be remembered as an All-time great linebacker class. Between Lee (my favored option over Washington), Witherspoon, Washington, and Bowman, it would have been really hard not to pick up a contributor.

Of the teams that you listed, how many are in the first-year of a 3-4 transition, and how many of those defenses aren't very good? If you're looking at really good 3-4 two-gap NTs, you're basically looking at Wilfork, Hampton, Sopoaga (a guy I was all over when he came out in the draft), Terrance Cody, and Dan Williams. I have no problem with those guys.

Again, whom would you have drafted instead? Sean Lee? Really? He went like 15 spots later; after Washington, IIRC. We're just beginning to see how good Dan Williams can be. You can't take Williams off the field on third-and-eight if the running back gets five yards on first down.

You can find fat guys in later rounds, but it's difficult to find immediate contributors there. Sopoaga was a backup DE for the first part of his career in Washington. If I had faith that this team could find good contributors at any position in free agency, I'd say maybe go that route. But there's a reason that teams hold on to the good NTs they find.

 

[Chopper0080]

I think that 2010 will be remembered as an All-time great linebacker class. Between Lee (my favored option over Washington), Witherspoon, Washington, and Bowman, it would have been really hard not to pick up a contributor.

Of the teams that you listed, how many are in the first-year of a 3-4 transition, and how many of those defenses aren't very good? If you're looking at really good 3-4 two-gap NTs, you're basically looking at Wilfork, Hampton, Sopoaga (a guy I was all over when he came out in the draft), Terrance Cody, and Dan Williams. I have no problem with those guys.

Again, whom would you have drafted instead? Sean Lee? Really? He went like 15 spots later; after Washington, IIRC. We're just beginning to see how good Dan Williams can be. You can't take Williams off the field on third-and-eight if the running back gets five yards on first down.
You can find fat guys in later rounds, but it's difficult to find immediate contributors there. Sopoaga was a backup DE for the first part of his career in Washington. If I had faith that this team could find good contributors at any position in free agency, I'd say maybe go that route. But there's a reason that teams hold on to the good NTs they find.

The problem is against teams like New England, you stay in prodominantly nickel packages because you want them to hand the ball off to Ridley rather than have Brady throw it. I have been personally pleased with Dan Williams developemnt to date, my issue with the pick then and now is taking a situational player (non pass rusher) in the first round. Personally, yes, after losing Dansby that off season and needing LBs, I would have drafted Washington/Lee/Bowman back to back.

In the end, and I know it is early, but I just don't the 5 round difference between Dan Williams and David Carter. Anyway you cut it, it is a limited drop off which leads to a limited decrease in production. However, maybe I will feel differently when we play San Fran.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

The problem is against teams like New England, you stay in prodominantly nickel packages because you want them to hand the ball off to Ridley rather than have Brady throw it. I have been personally pleased with Dan Williams developemnt to date, my issue with the pick then and now is taking a situational player (non pass rusher) in the first round. Personally, yes, after losing Dansby that off season and needing LBs, I would have drafted Washington/Lee/Bowman back to back.

In the end, and I know it is early, but I just don't the 5 round difference between Dan Williams and David Carter. Anyway you cut it, it is a limited drop off which leads to a limited decrease in production. However, maybe I will feel differently when we play San Fran.

Williams was projected to go as high as $13 to the Fins. He was the highest, Scouts rated, player on the board at the time.

 

[kerouac9]

The problem is against teams like New England, you stay in prodominantly nickel packages because you want them to hand the ball off to Ridley rather than have Brady throw it. I have been personally pleased with Dan Williams developemnt to date, my issue with the pick then and now is taking a situational player (non pass rusher) in the first round. Personally, yes, after losing Dansby that off season and needing LBs, I would have drafted Washington/Lee/Bowman back to back.

In the end, and I know it is early, but I just don't the 5 round difference between Dan Williams and David Carter. Anyway you cut it, it is a limited drop off which leads to a limited decrease in production. However, maybe I will feel differently when we play San Fran.

That's all well and good, but we only play the Patriots every four years. You can't design your roster and your draft class around beating teams that you only play twice a decade.

We play the Rams (Steven Jackson), the Seahawks (Marshawn Lynch), and 49ers (Frank Gore) twice a year. You have to build your roster to win your division first. We are not in a division with elite passers; we are in a division where teams are going to struggle to get to 24 points per game. You want to maximize your opportunities in those games, and having a stout defender at the point of attack allows you to do that.

You're purposefully avoiding the fact that the best teams running the 3-4 in the NFL, New England, Green Bay, and Pittsburgh have former 1st round picks playing nose tackle (New England ran a 3-4 until last year).

If there were an elite pass rusher available when we'd drafted Dan Williams, I would have been in favor of drafting him. Would you rather have Dan Williams, Jerry Hughes, or Sergio Kindle? I know what my answer is.

Even if we'd gone ILB back-to-back, one of those guys likely comes off the field on third down, just like Williams does. How is that any different?

In passing situations, there isn't much of a difference between David Carter and Dan Williams. That's certainly true. But when I was watching the Seahawks game (you know, one of those division games that puts us in first place in the standings right now), I saw Dan Williams, not Darnell Dockett or Calais Campbell, getting double-teamed at the point of attack on running down situations.

That's invaluable.

 

[WarnerHOF]

That's all well and good, but we only play the Patriots every four years. You can't design your roster and your draft class around beating teams that you only play twice a decade.

We play the Rams (Steven Jackson), the Seahawks (Marshawn Lynch), and 49ers (Frank Gore) twice a year. You have to build your roster to win your division first. We are not in a division with elite passers; we are in a division where teams are going to struggle to get to 24 points per game. You want to maximize your opportunities in those games, and having a stout defender at the point of attack allows you to do that.

You're purposefully avoiding the fact that the best teams running the 3-4 in the NFL, New England, Green Bay, and Pittsburgh have former 1st round picks playing nose tackle (New England ran a 3-4 until last year).

If there were an elite pass rusher available when we'd drafted Dan Williams, I would have been in favor of drafting him. Would you rather have Dan Williams, Jerry Hughes, or Sergio Kindle? I know what my answer is.

Even if we'd gone ILB back-to-back, one of those guys likely comes off the field on third down, just like Williams does. How is that any different?

In passing situations, there isn't much of a difference between David Carter and Dan Williams. That's certainly true. But when I was watching the Seahawks game (you know, one of those division games that puts us in first place in the standings right now), I saw Dan Williams, not Darnell Dockett or Calais Campbell, getting double-teamed at the point of attack on running down situations.

That's invaluable.

yup, i think the only time lynch was running for big gainers was when nick eason subbed in and was getting blown 10 yards off the los

 

[Duckjake]

The problem is against teams like New England, you stay in prodominantly nickel packages because you want them to hand the ball off to Ridley rather than have Brady throw it. I have been personally pleased with Dan Williams developemnt to date, my issue with the pick then and now is taking a situational player (non pass rusher) in the first round. Personally, yes, after losing Dansby that off season and needing LBs, I would have drafted Washington/Lee/Bowman back to back.

In the end, and I know it is early, but I just don't the 5 round difference between Dan Williams and David Carter. Anyway you cut it, it is a limited drop off which leads to a limited decrease in production. However, maybe I will feel differently when we play San Fran.

To me Dan and Carter are two different style players. Dan stands up offensive linemen clogging the center of the line while sliding in the direction of the ball carrier. Carter seems to try to get off blocks and get into the backfield. More like a DT in a 4-3.

The rushing stats didn't really change much with Dan Williams and after he got hurt but I do know that it seemed like teams had a lot more success running the ball against the 2-4-5 than they did our base defense with the NT in the game.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

yup, i think the only time lynch was running for big gainers was when nick eason subbed in and was getting blown 10 yards off the los

Saw that too.