Hawks reported to offer JJ max contract

[Arizona's Finest]

I understand the premise that letting JJ go and getting Finley isnt TOO bad short term (although finley is not a starter on a champs team IMO and he is no where near as versatile) but i am one of the people who thinks Joe is going to grow into one of the top 3 players at his position and a top 10 -12 player overall (by the way in my suns world amare in numero uno on that list) in just a short amount of time. But to all of you who are looking at Atalanta and saying "EEWWW" or no way he will go there you have to look at it from a players perspective.....

$$$$$$- we can offer more but if atlanta is offering as much as they can and the suns are offering more but not the max....well athletes are humans to. they want to be needed and that goes a long way.

Focal point-JJ immediatly becomes the focal point of this team and with two young forwards in Williams and Smith they could actually be pretty formidiable in a few seasons. JJ gets the bulk of the shots and they could him in the backcourt with salim and not really have to worry about defense (and mark this down salim WILL be starting for that team by the end of the year) JJ would score 25 a game with 5 and 5 in the other big categories. But more importantly its his team and he will get the credit for turning around the franchise, no matter how good williams and smith turn out to be.

Atlanta- Every young black athlete would love to live in Hotlanta and remember the proximity to arkansas. Joe is a big family guy and he relies on the familiar more than most athletes.
Saying all this, the guy is my favorite player in the league and i will be pretty devastated if he leaves no matter who they bring in. If joe reads these posts, please dont go man. You and Amare could be next big thing and be the definition of a franchise with no rings currently. the suns need to step up and get him signed because im going to be pissed if i have to read atlanta scores on the bottom line next year and i see this: J Johnson 28 pts 6 asts 5 rebs GW FG w/ 2 secs left. And trust me we will be seeing that ALL year.....

 

[sunsfn]

JJ will be in a Suns uniform next season. It is that simple.

I think you are right, but also think the suns should have wrapped this up already.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

I think you are right, but also think the suns should have wrapped this up already.

It would have been nice, but they are doing the smart thing and letting the market determine his value.

 

[Chaz]

I used a bad choice of words.........but I thought everyone knew that he can commit orally but not sign yet. (Bell contract)

By him not committing orally, at this point we have to take it that he does not agree with what has been offered, right?
I would think that he wants to play for the suns and not someone else, and was hoping they would offer him a contract he could agree to right away.

-

Yes but I am not that worried yet.

Didn't they have some scheduling problem with a face-to-face meeting?


Plus there is no reason for JJ to agree to anything yet even if he is happy with the offer. The Suns offer is not going to disappear and there is still a lot of possible offers from other teams that could drive up the cost. i.e. Atlanta.


If I was in JJ's position I would not agree to anything before I could actually sign unless the offer blew me away (like Redd offered the max) and I wanted to secure it before they change thier mind.

 

[Chaz]

It would have been nice, but they are doing the smart thing and letting the market determine his value.

The same thing can be said of JJ's agent. He wouldn't want to agree to a Suns offer prematurely.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

scouting report by tony mejia (cbssportsline.com)about JJ ranking the top 2 guards available...
1. Joe Johnson, Phoenix: Johnson is reportedly mulling a preliminary offer from the Suns for less than the league maximum, which essentially means he's still there to be had if another team offers full price. Our advice to the Suns: If you have to match top dollar, do it. Johnson turns 24 at the end of the month and has improved progressively over his four years in the league. He's the team's top perimeter defender, able to match up with both point guards and wings, has developed into a steady 3-point shooter, can handle the ball well enough to run the offense and will never be a problem in the locker room. You can't ask for anything more, especially since his best days are ahead.

And this is exactly my point.......

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

The same thing can be said of JJ's agent. He wouldn't want to agree to a Suns offer prematurely.

Exactly. Both sides expect Johnson to be back with the Suns, and instead of throwing numbers back and forth - they are going to let the market decide the price.

Will the Suns have to pay a lot? Yep, and I am pretty sure they will without a problem.


Put it this way....

I am a lot more excited about JJ's future than I was about Marion's when he got his max deal. Marion grew into his contract just fine, I am pretty sure Joe will as well.

 

[sunsfn]

It would have been nice, but they are doing the smart thing and letting the market determine his value.

The suns are in the basketball business...........they should already know what JJ is worth.
I really believe if JC still owned the team this would have been a done deal last year.
I will say it again, the NBA contract signings are not always and usually not done because of common sense, or "smart things".
Sarver should have done this long ago and now he is having a problem doing it again.
Sarver needs to call JJ's agent and get it done now!

 

[sunsfn]

The same thing can be said of JJ's agent. He wouldn't want to agree to a Suns offer prematurely.

I think JJ's agent is the smart one here. He knows JJ's value and is not going to let him sign the offered contract.
The suns obviously should have offered a better contract.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

The suns are in the basketball business...........they should already know what JJ is worth.

They know what JJ is worth to them, and that is what they offered.

Now if JJ is worth more on the open market than he is to the Suns, he needs to get an offer sheet to prove it. Why would the Suns throw more money at him if the market isn't that strong? That would be a horrible idea, and a waste of money.

They offered a deal that pays him an average of 10 million a season. They will match a higher offer, but why should they just throw it out at him?

I really believe if JC still owned the team this would have been a done deal last year.

I don't know about that. There was still 100 million in guaranteed money thrown out last summer, I don't know if many owners in the NBA would have thrown an extra 60 out there.

 

[Chaplin]

They know what JJ is worth to them, and that is what they offered.

Now if JJ is worth more on the open market than he is to the Suns, he needs to get an offer sheet to prove it. Why would the Suns throw more money at him if the market isn't that strong? That would be a horrible idea, and a waste of money.

They offered a deal that pays him an average of 10 million a season. They will match a higher offer, but why should they just throw it out at him?



I don't know about that. There was still 100 million in guaranteed money thrown out last summer, I don't know if many owners in the NBA would have thrown an extra 60 out there.

Exactly.

Sunsfn said it himself: the NBA is a business. And if what we're doing isn't business, then I don't know what is.

You don't just go throwing the max at someone when it is unclear that they'll get it. Take Kobe for an example--to get him, you'd definitely offer the max, because there is a 100% chance that he will get offered the max. With JJ, though, that isn't guaranteed, and there is no reason for the team for which he plays (remember, he isn't unrestricted) to determine his market value for him. That's bad business.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

The suns obviously should have offered a better contract.

No they shouldn't. If JJ gets a better offer from another team, the Suns will match it.

What you are suggesting is the same thing as a car salesman making an intial offer of the lowest possible price. Why in the hell would you do that? If the Suns threw a max contract at Joe on day 1, I would have been pissed.

I don't mind paying him that contract, but I want proof that his market value is that high before we give it to him.


Come on Sunsfn, think logically here. We all want Joe back and there is a 99% chance that he is back. Don't get upset because the Suns didn't throw the bank at him right away - they are playing this smart.

 

[Chaplin]

No they shouldn't. If JJ gets a better offer from another team, the Suns will match it.

What you are suggesting is the same thing as a car salesman making an intial offer of the lowest possible price. Why in the hell would you do that? If the Suns threw a max contract at Joe on day 1, I would have been pissed.

I don't mind paying him that contract, but I want proof that his market value is that high before we give it to him.


Come on Sunsfn, think logically here. We all want Joe back and there is a 99% chance that he is back. Don't get upset because the Suns didn't throw the bank at him right away - they are playing this smart.

This is what a lot of people wish we were able to do with Shawn. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Mainstreet]

First let me say this one thing... The Suns absolutly NEED JJ, and losing him would hurt us, period!

However, I have to say this.... Ithe suns do hold th upper hand here.... if Atl wants him so bad, and all the suns have to do is match it, the suns COULD, (with a big emphasis on COULD) think about a S&T.....

If Im Bryan, and Sarver tells me it is too much, I go to ATL, and say I want Harrington, Josh Smith, and Salim Stoudimire for JJ....if Atl balks, match the sheet and move on... if they go for it... the suns could go after Finley.. and have a lineup of this

Nash/ Barbs/Stoudamire
Finley/Bell/JJax
Marion/Smith/JJax
Amare/Harrington
Thomas/Hunter

Certainly not as good without JJ... but its a start.. especially landing Harrington, and Smith who would give us a deep bench, and a solid starting 5....Again, My A#1 choice is to match any offer... however if that is not the case this would be a 2nd best Scenerio for the suns IMO.....

I expressed my concern last year when the Suns did not extend JJ's contract before he became a RFA (as did some other pollsters on this board) that a sign and trade could be the result. How many close to max players (or high salaried players) will the Suns choose to have on their roster: Marion (max), Amare (a definite), JJ (close too) and a good chunk of change for Nash.

I think the Suns will have to look closely at the core of their franchise. I think most teams would be happy with two upper eclon players on their roster and then add role players for quality depth. It could be argued the Suns have four (Amare, Nash, Marion and JJ) such players on their roster.

Is the core of the future Suns really Amare and JJ. If so, the Suns must sign these two. The Suns keeping Nash is a given.

IMO, however, if the Suns decide this, I believe the departure of Marion is inevitable at least after this coming season.

The other scenario, which the Suns might reach, is that Nash turned this franchise around in one year and that the only players that are not expendable is Amare and Nash. I think the Suns have a sentimental attachment to Marion and if it were up to the C's, Marion would probably come close to retiring with the Suns.

The Suns must decide that if JJ is just a very good multitalented player or is he is close to being on the same level as Amare and Nash. I know many feel Marion is not worth the max but the Suns may decide they only need three star players on their team (Amare, Nash, JJ/Marion). JJ might be the fans choice to keep but JJ might fetch more young talent to fill holes in their roster in a trade and spread the cost over several players instead of one player (and hopefully pick up another young rising star in the process).

If that be the case the Suns may sign JJ to close to the max and then do a sign and trade with whatever teams give the Suns the best package in return. It wouldn't necessarily have to be a sign and trade with the Hawks unless that is a stipulation if JJ signs a contract with them. I don't think JJ would like a stipulation in his contract that he must remain with the Hawks.

IMO, the bottom line, is that ether JJ or Marion will be moved in a sign and trade, the latest being next year. My gut feeling is that JJ may be the trading piece the longer he procrastinates. That is why in one of my posts I was trying to get an idea from others on the board what JJ or Marion could fetch as far as player talent in return.

If push came to shove, I could be happy with any of three of the above Suns players as long as the Suns keep a trio of Amare, Nash and JJ/Marion and the Suns did a sign and trade for young quality depth (not to just save money). I think the dye has already been cast. The question is, will it be this year or next year?

AsUdUdE, I don't think your far off base but I don't see the Hawks with enough talent to be a good trading partner. If Sarver had the money like a NY, I would see the Suns just standing pat. I personally would like to keep our current four players (Amare, Nash, Marion and JJ) together for several years but then again, I'm not paying the bills.

 

[Chaz]

I think JJ's agent is the smart one here. He knows JJ's value and is not going to let him sign the offered contract.
The suns obviously should have offered a better contract.

If he was unrestricted I would agree with you.

The Suns still hold all the cards because they have the last word and can match. JJ and his agent are holding out for the best offer they can get. Unless the Suns offer a 6 year max contract they should wait. The Suns should make a fair and reasonable offer and wait to see if some other team decides to force their hand.

On E-bay you don't bid the buy-it-now price and you don't offer the sticker price at the car dealership. It is just good negotiating.


I think Sarver has already admitted, in hindsight, he made a mistake by not signing JJ last year when they had the chance.

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

AsUdUdE, I don't think your far off base but I don't see the Hawks with enough talent to be a good trading partner.

The only way the Suns should do a Sign and Trade with ATL is if Marvin Williams is part of the package.

I doubt ATL would do that, so I don't see a sign and trade with them.


Joe doesn't want to actually play in Atlanta, no one does. He is using them to get a big contract. If the Suns were really at a point where they did not want to match a max contract deal from another team - then we can visit sign and trade options with every other team in the league and try to find a deal that makes sense for both parties.


The only thing I think is more certain than the Suns getting Joe back is that Joe will not wear a Hawks uni.

 

[Mainstreet]

On E-bay you don't bid the buy-it-now price and you don't offer the sticker price at the car dealership. It is just good negotiating.

SirChaz, I know what your saying, however, there is the law of supply and demand.

Using the E-bay example, I will use the "buy-it-now option" if the item is hard to find and I really want it. Also I will use the "buy-it-now option" if the price is already fair and there is a likelihood the price might go higher in a bidding war.

The above example unfortunately applied to JJ in these two aspects.

 

[JS22]

(Put on your tinfoil hats.)

Phoenix will match any offer that is thrown at JJ. However, i have a strange feeling that Marion is going to be traded. If Marion is traded, it will probably be for another big man, and an ugly expiring contract or two. This will then lead to the signing of Finley, to replace Marion for the time being.

If Phoenix HAD to get rid of Marion, my hope would be that they could land Dalembert. They would probably need to take on Mashburn's contract to do so, though. Anyone else find it interesting that there are "rumors" of Finley coming back, and "rumors" that the Suns are trying to get Dalembert? With JJ signing a max, or near max, contract it would seem like all signs are pointing to Marion being gone sooner, rather than later.

The signing of Bell could also point to Marion being gone. Bell will provide the extra depth to cover the loss of Marion. The lineup?

Nash
Finley
Johnson
Amare
Dalembert

Barbosa
Bell
Jackson
?? Croshere / Lafrentz ??
Thomas

Thompson
Voskhul

I am actually AGAINST trading Marion. I would feel like they are making too many changes to a team that just made the WCF. But if it had to come down to it, I wouldnt absolutely hate that lineup.

With all of that said, it's probably NOT going to happen....and I could just be talking out of my ass.

 

[Mainstreet]

Joe doesn't want to actually play in Atlanta, no one does. He is using them to get a big contract. If the Suns were really at a point where they did not want to match a max contract deal from another team - then we can visit sign and trade options with every other team in the league and try to find a deal that makes sense for both parties.


The only thing I think is more certain than the Suns getting Joe back is that Joe will not wear a Hawks uni.

Those are my thoughts exactly if the Suns do not want another max contract. If they do not, then it's a sign a trade with JJ or Marion, this year or next.

 

[Chaplin]

I am actually AGAINST trading Marion. I would feel like they are making too many changes to a team that just made the WCF. But if it had to come down to it, I wouldnt absolutely hate that lineup.

With all of that said, it's probably NOT going to happen....and I could just be talking out of my ass.

But you're saying you have a strange feeling it WILL happen... I don't understand--how many strange feelings do people have to have every single year before one of them actually turns out accurate?

 

[JS22]

But you're saying you have a strange feeling it WILL happen... I don't understand--how many strange feelings do people have to have every single year before one of them actually turns out accurate?

This is a message board. We have opinions. It's the middle of the offseason, with nothing to talk about. Excuse me, your majesty.

Lets talk about the loss to the spurs some more.

 

[Chaz]

SirChaz, I know what your saying, however, there is the law of supply and demand.

Using the E-bay example, I will use the "buy-it-now option" if the item is hard to find and I really want. Also I will use the "buy-it-now option" if the price is already fair and there is a likelihood the price might go higher in a bidding war.

The above example unfortunately applied to JJ in these two aspects.

Again if it was a 'free market' (unrestricted free agency) like E-bay that would be a serious concern.

However, to extend the analogy, the Suns cannot pay more than the buy-it-now price and the most someone else can bid is lower than that price.

In this situation it is better to put in a bid and wait. Joe is not going anywhere unless the Suns allow it.

 

[JS22]

But you're saying you have a strange feeling it WILL happen... I don't understand--how many strange feelings do people have to have every single year before one of them actually turns out accurate?

And also note that I basically said my feeling was bogus: "With all of that said, it's probably NOT going to happen."

 

[Chaplin]

This is a message board. We have opinions. It's the middle of the offseason, with nothing to talk about. Excuse me, your majesty.

Lets talk about the loss to the spurs some more.

You totally contradicted yourself in that post though. That's what I was addressing. It's not a big deal, of course, I just noticed it is all.

 

[Mainstreet]

But you're saying you have a strange feeling it WILL happen... I don't understand--how many strange feelings do people have to have every single year before one of them actually turns out accurate?

That's a good one Chaplin, however, I am worried that the Suns appear very cost-conscious. Unfortunately, I don't think the Suns wanted to pay JJ the max and now they may have to come very close.