Hawks reported to offer JJ max contract

[sunsfn]

elindholm,

Let me enlighten you to the NBA salary system.

Thanks, I appreciate that.

(bunch of examples deleted)

Are you telling me that often players get overpaid? I did already know that, believe it or not. It's also true that teams often get stuck behind bloated contracts. Do you think those phenomena might be related?

If you have a player of JJ's quality and are serious about winning a title you pay him market value...........plain and simple!

That's your opinion. You act as though Johnson is irreplaceable -- if the Suns don't pay him max dollars, they'll have to play four-on-five all next season. That simply isn't true. Another player could bring other skills to the table. Maybe he wouldn't be as good as Johnson, but maybe, by getting the other player, the Suns would be in a position to make other moves that would strengthen the team further.

Do you have NBA tv or some cable service in Ca. so you can see the games?

What an unbelievable question. Anyone who disagrees with you must be uninformed? And people call me arrogant on this board?

Yes, I have League Pass on DirecTV. Perhaps you've heard of it. I watched at least half of the games last year. For what it's worth, I also look at box scores.

The comments you make sometimes leads me to think this is a fair question to ask you.

Ask away, sport. I have nothing to hide.

I guarantee that if the Suns have four max (or near-max) contracts, we'll all be saying at some point, "Gee, it would be nice to get a player like X, but we don't have any salary flexibility." It's a tradeoff. You can lock up your players now, or you can give yourself the chance to make a better move later. It's a judgment call on a case-by-case basis, and there is no clear answer. My hunch is that signing Johnson to a maximum extension will be too constricting for the level of play that he brings.

I think that JJ is going to be very hard to replace if they trade him. He can play 3 positions on the floor better than most players in the NBA. He is young and just hitting his prime playing time. He is a good citizen and you will not have to worry about him off the court. He is one of these guys the coach hates to take out of a game because he can do so many things on the court. I think that JJ is the 2nd most important player on this team after Amare for the future of this club.

I believe that JJ is going to be one of the very best players in the NBA for the next few years. And I do not believe that other people on this board see that. Now, that does not make me right, but we will see.

Having four close to or max players on a club is certainly not good to have. The suns (Sarver) has himself in a corner because he did not sign JJ last year when he had the chance.

I think if the suns sign JJ to a contract that is close to the max, they go through this year and see what happens. If they have to do something for next year I think they probably try to trade Marion.

The tv thing was not meant to be arrogant on my part, but sometimes after a game or during these discussions you say some things that I have thought, did he watch the game?

The reference to Marion having more memorable games must have been because you did not see the 40 games where JJ played well and did something memorable.

elindholm,
Do not feel like you have to answer this post, I would just as soon that we agree to disagree.....

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[coloradosun]

I think that JJ is going to be very hard to replace if they trade him. He can play 3 positions on the floor better than most players in the NBA. He is young and just hitting his prime playing time. He is a good citizen and you will not have to worry about him off the court. He is one of these guys the coach hates to take out of a game because he can do so many things on the court. I think that JJ is the 2nd most important player on this team after Amare for the future of this club.

I believe that JJ is going to be one of the very best players in the NBA for the next few years. And I do not believe that other people on this board see that. Now, that does not make me right, but we will see.



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I am definitely a guy in your corner and will back you up on this. The Suns put an awful lot of into developing this guy and I don't think they will let this guy go. He and Amare are the long term future of the team.

 

[elindholm]

I agree that Johnson looks like he might become a great player, and it might later look like a mistake for the Suns not to have matched his max contract when they had the chance. It's a risk either way, so it's just guesswork as to which path is the correct gamble. It's fine that we disagree on that.

The reference to Marion having more memorable games must have been because you did not see the 40 games where JJ played well and did something memorable.

I haven't backed away from my stance that Johnson finally showed signs of living up to his promise, especially over the last couple of months of the season. However, I think you aren't giving Marion enough credit. Right now, if Johnson isn't scoring a lot, he isn't really impacting the game. Averages of four rebounds and four assists are nice, but generally not difference-makers. Marion, so far, is more complete, and many people have said that he was the Suns' best player during the regular season (even though I don't think I'd go quite that far). Were the coaches of the league wrong to put Marion on the All-Star team and leave Johnson off? I don't think so.

 

[Chaplin]

Marion had a terrific year. The problem is that most people have short memories--compare 2 teams: The Suns without Marion and the Suns without JJ and I guarantee in 2004-2005, the Suns without JJ would have been the better team.

Marion was extremely valuable during the regular season. In fact, I would say he was our best player until Amare woke up in the playoffs.

 

[JCSunsfan]

1. The Suns said they are committed to resigning JJ, and they will--even if it is a max contract. JC has alway proven that if he says he is going to do it, he will.

2. The Suns will not blow this team up (which is so close to a championship) for the sake of 2 or 3 million a year. It would be easier to sign JJ now, go for the ring, and deal players later of they need to.

3. They already got rid of Q's deal, so the long term cap issues are significantly less than they were last fall--even with KT here.

4. The Hawks have nothing of real interest to us. For us to do a sign and trade for any combo of Hawks players would be disastrous. It would mean, simply, that the Suns are not interested in competing, just bottom line. Its one thing when you are rebuilding (like a year and a half ago) its another when you have a young team and you just reached the Western Conference finals.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Marion had a terrific year. The problem is that most people have short memories--compare 2 teams: The Suns without Marion and the Suns without JJ and I guarantee in 2004-2005, the Suns without JJ would have been the better team.

Marion was extremely valuable during the regular season. In fact, I would say he was our best player until Amare woke up in the playoffs.

I agree with the general idea. But the Suns without JJ would have been bad too.

No Marion -12 to 15 games.
No JJ -8 to 12 games.

Just conjecture, but its my take.

 

[jandaman]

As much as I want JJ with the suns.


People continue to put Marion aside as if he is the weakest link. Newsflash, he was arguably as effective as Amare during the regular season and first 2 series of the playoffs last season. Remember those big games against Dallas, Seattle etc where the game was close and the player who stepped up a lot during those big games?... marion. scoring 20+ grabbing 10+ rebounds and performing clutch defensive plays.


JJ is important to the suns success and the future, but lets not forget that Marion was a HUGE factor as why the suns was succesful last year.

Now for JJ. I think the suns should lay all on the table and just tell JJ how it is... tell him that Atlanta can pay more per year, but he is going to a team who is destined to be crap for the next 2-3 seasons, and will most likely be traded if someone offered more young talent.

The suns should also tell him, they want JJ to sign sacrificing a little bit of cash to be on a playoff/contender team and strictly be part of that "core" for the future. I think the suns will only match upto 70 million.

 

[sunsfn]

I never said that Marion did not play well, he played great all year.
My point was that JJ had as many memorable games as JJ and he did.

JJ did not have any chance at the all-star game because you have to prove you can play like JJ did this year a few years to make the all-star. In a couple years he will be there.

JJ does impact the game with those 4 rebounds and assists, because he is playing defense and back-up point guard.
However, when he does have those 4 rebounds and assists, they are usually along with the 15 - 20 points a game plus playing 40 minutes.

Marion is extremely important to this team because of the run run run offense we have. I hope they keep him until he retires.


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[Chaplin]

I never said that Marion did not play well, he played great all year.
My point was that JJ had as many memorable games as JJ and he did.

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That is just not true--JJ had some great games and all-around was a solid contributor, but Shawn won us basketball games far more than JJ did. That's not to say that JJ didn't and I don't want him, just that the general trend on this board for about 2 months of Marion hating is illogical.

 

[elindholm]

JJ does impact the game with those 4 rebounds and assists, because he is playing defense and back-up point guard.
However, when he does have those 4 rebounds and assists, they are usually along with the 15 - 20 points a game plus playing 40 minutes.

Johnson's defense is fine, but it certainly isn't world class. I'd say he's not much better than average defensively among NBA wings. He just looks much better than that in comparison to his teammates.

Johnson played very little backup PG during the regular season. I'd say it was probably 6-8 minutes per game on average at the most.

20/4/4 just isn't a max player to me.

Does Johnson deserve to be paid 60% more than Ginobili? I really don't think so. If you could have Johnson or Ginobili plus Bell for the same money, which would you pick?

 

[tobiazz]

Does Johnson deserve to be paid 60% more than Ginobili? I really don't think so. If you could have Johnson or Ginobili plus Bell for the same money, which would you pick?

JJ. He will greatly outclass Balky in two years. Maybe

 

[tobiazz]

If I had to choose between Shawn Matrix and JJ, I would choose Marion in a heartbeat. There are alot of SGs I would take over JJ but very few SFs I would take over Shawn.

 

[sunsfn]

JJ does impact the game with those 4 rebounds and assists, because he is playing defense and back-up point guard.
However, when he does have those 4 rebounds and assists, they are usually along with the 15 - 20 points a game plus playing 40 minutes.

Johnson's defense is fine, but it certainly isn't world class. I'd say he's not much better than average defensively among NBA wings. He just looks much better than that in comparison to his teammates.

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World Class, where do you come up with this stuff?
JJ is an excellent defender! And he is better than most of the 2 guards in the league.
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Johnson played very little backup PG during the regular season. I'd say it was probably 6-8 minutes per game on average at the most.
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Again, 6-8 minutes, where/why did you come up with that?
JJ played point for a time in every game last season. I certainly do not know how many minutes he played point, but he did and that is what is important to this team.
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20/4/4 just isn't a max player to me.

I am not sure it is with me either, but we do not get to make those decisions, the owners are the stupid ones that set the amount these guys are paid. Just take a look at what has happpened in the last week with salaries.
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Does Johnson deserve to be paid 60% more than Ginobili? I really don't think so. If you could have Johnson or Ginobili plus Bell for the same money, which would you pick?
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JJ does not deserve to be paid 60% more than Ginobili.

That is not being realistic, we do not have the option of choosing the players you mentioned.
That is the same thing as coming up with some trade that is not realistic.

Look, you think JJ is not worth what the suns are going to sign him for.

I agree, but the market is set by other signings. I do think that JJ is worth more to the suns than you do.

Most NBA owners worry about winning more than the money, that is why they pay the high salaries.
They make their money when they sell the team.

When Sarver signs JJ this year, and another big man, they will go into next year with a team that has a chance to win the title.

Not many teams will have the talent the suns will have next year. If they do not win the title next year, who knows what Sarver will do.

I never once over all these years ever ragged on JC and I never will. JC did what ever he had to do to try to put a winner on the floor. Sometimes the signings and the trades did not work out, but he tried to win as hard as any NBA team owner.

I do not feel that way about Sarver. I think he needs a lot of help when it comes to running an NBA team.

The suns had a great run last year and I think they need JJ to do the same or better next year. You do not, that's fine.

P.S. Just to make sure there is no misunderstanding, I also think they need Shawn Marion.


"WHEW"
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[Treesquid PhD]

I would pay JJ, and I agree he is more valuable than people think he is.

But heck this board is full of people who are so inlove with big stiffs like Dalembert and want him to be our #1 scoring option that does not surprise me one bit.

 

[JS22]

I would pay JJ, and I agree he is more valuable than people think he is.

But heck this board is full of people who are so inlove with big stiffs like Dalembert and want him to be our #1 scoring option that does not surprise me one bit.

#1 scoring option? When has ANYONE said that?

And "big stiff" ?? Have you ever seen him play? Dalembert is a pretty decent athlete, and would fit in very nicely with the Suns.

 

[JS22]

I would pay JJ, and I agree he is more valuable than people think he is.

But heck this board is full of people who are so inlove with big stiffs like Dalembert and want him to be our #1 scoring option that does not surprise me one bit.

You know, there are other message boards besides this one, if we all annoy you so much.

 

[jandaman]

Something just got me thinking.

Looking at Colangelo's past history with team finances and player transaction.

I think if the Hawks do offer the max for JoJo. I think the Suns will either match or do a sign and trade.

But if the suns match, that would mean the suns have 4 players that are maxxed out by 2006-2007 season. I dont think B.Colangelo and Sarver want that since that would stagnate the team and put them in a very New-Yorkish situation. Like I said, looking at B.C's record, I think there's going to be a trade down the line if the Suns match the max offer sheet. As most people expect or want.. Marion to go. But Something tells me, JoJo will join Marion + probably Barbosa and draft picks.... to attain a Superstar and fillers.

 

[Goldfield]

Something just got me thinking.

Looking at Colangelo's past history with team finances and player transaction.

I think if the Hawks do offer the max for JoJo. I think the Suns will either match or do a sign and trade.

But if the suns match, that would mean the suns have 4 players that are maxxed out by 2006-2007 season. I dont think B.Colangelo and Sarver want that since that would stagnate the team and put them in a very New-Yorkish situation. Like I said, looking at B.C's record, I think there's going to be a trade down the line if the Suns match the max offer sheet. As most people expect or want.. Marion to go. But Something tells me, JoJo will join Marion + probably Barbosa and draft picks.... to attain a Superstar and fillers.

LOOK, were gunna match 100% for sure.

Were gunna make our run for the next 3-4 years. If it doesnt result in a world championship then you will see players moved.

That meant the Suns will only have a high payrole for afew years. That isnt a bad price to pay for a chance at winning it all. MARK MY WORDS! lol

 

[Mainstreet]

LOOK, were gunna match 100% for sure.

Were gunna make our run for the next 3-4 years. If it doesnt result in a world championship then you will see players moved.

That meant the Suns will only have a high payrole for afew years. That isnt a bad price to pay for a chance at winning it all. MARK MY WORDS! lol

BEERZ, I wish I were as optimistic. I do think the Suns will make the right offseason moves, however, I'm not so sure the Suns will be keeping all of our big four. Certainly Nash and Amare are part of the equation but I wondering if the Suns will keep both Marion and JJ. Right now I am leaning towards the Suns keeping Marion.

Why?

In particular, I am worried that the Suns and JJ are not talking (at least to my knowledge) nor is Suns management talking about the situation. If there is one thing I have learned about the Suns over the years is that they value loyalty in a player. I think the more JJ flirts with Atlanta the greater chance he will be moved in a sign and trade. I do not perceive the Suns keeping JJ if they perceive he is actually considering signing with another team with the idea of playing for them.

This FA waiting period until July 22nd for players to sign is beginning to wear on me. I wish I knew what the Suns are planning.

 

[Joe Mama]

Something just got me thinking.

Looking at Colangelo's past history with team finances and player transaction.

I think if the Hawks do offer the max for JoJo. I think the Suns will either match or do a sign and trade.

But if the suns match, that would mean the suns have 4 players that are maxxed out by 2006-2007 season. I dont think B.Colangelo and Sarver want that since that would stagnate the team and put them in a very New-Yorkish situation. Like I said, looking at B.C's record, I think there's going to be a trade down the line if the Suns match the max offer sheet. As most people expect or want.. Marion to go. But Something tells me, JoJo will join Marion + probably Barbosa and draft picks.... to attain a Superstar and fillers.

you can't compare this team to New York. That team doesn't have one guy that would start on this one. They are drastically overpaying for the likes of Allan Houston (old and injured), Marbury (he's good, but he's not worth the super max), Crawford (he was the most overrated free-agent last summer), Tim Thomas, and almost everyone else who isn't on a rookie contract off the bench. They are paying high dollar for a team that sucks.

It's a completely different situation.

In my opinion JJ is worth a contract that averages $9-10 million. The problem is that this is an extremely weak free-agent market. There are also a couple teams who need to get somebody. I think we can add the LA Clippers to that list now.

Joe Mama

 

[elindholm]

That is not being realistic, we do not have the option of choosing the players you mentioned.

That wasn't the point. The point is that you need to make sure that you're getting maximum talent for your dollars. Salary-cap rules limit the amount that teams can spend. Within that budget, you have to figure out how to get the most bang for the buck. Spending $12-$14 million per year on Johnson means that you have to skimp somewhere else, and in my opinion, that skimping sacrifice is likely to be more costly than it would be to suffer a slight "downgrade" at SG.

Most people on this board agree that if the Suns max out Johnson, Marion will probably have to be traded before his contract is up, out of simple salary-cap flexibility. (This would be true even if Sarver was a gazillionaire.) So that's a sacrifice right there. Is it worth paying Johnson the max if it means that Marion will have to leave sooner? That's a tough call.

As for the rest of our disagreements, I'll drop them. You clearly have a higher opinion of Johnson than I do (even though mine is pretty high), and if the Suns match a maximum contract for him, all I can say is that I hope your opinion proves to be more accurate than mine.

 

[Folster]

Marbury (he's good, but he's not worth the super max),

Funny, didn't we sign Marbury to his current contract?

 

[George O'Brien]

In any case, I think the Hawks are being used by JJ's agent in much the same way K-Mart used them a year ago - for leverage. Did anyone actually believe K-Mart was actually going to the Hawks?

 

[jandaman]

Again just thinking for sec... About realistic scenarios if a trade does happen.

taking into account the status of the teams involve.
When a rumour trade goes around it usually ending up involing a third team.
So if B.C and Sarver are indeed planning on trading a Maxxed JJ and Marion. It might involve the Bulls.

Minesota gets Chandler, Nocioni, Gordon, Davis + Draft picks

Bulls get J.J, Marion, Barbosa

Suns get KG, Hudson + draft picks


The Bulls always coveted Marion, now they get him and a newly signed JJ. They have Curry, Deng left over as their young guns mixed in with some young veterans.

The wolves get younger, they also get draft picks. They start rebuilding around Gordon and Chandler. expiring contracts in Davis puts them in good position to enter FA in the next season or 2.

The Suns trades 2 Max contracts for 1 Max contract, they get a veteran backup. And a rebounder/versatile Superstar in KG.
Sarver and B.C have stated the team will mostly be filled with minimum contracts to support the starting 5. With Amare, Nash, KG, Bell, Thomas.. and support from Jackson and some minimum-type playersis all you need.



I know, I should be more optimistic about the JJ, Nash, Amare, marion future. But Its just hard to fathom 4 max contracts... I dont think the Suns ever had that much max contracts.. Sorry if Its annoying.

 

[Joe Mama]

In any case, I think the Hawks are being used by JJ's agent in much the same way K-Mart used them a year ago - for leverage. Did anyone actually believe K-Mart was actually going to the Hawks?

It reminded me of what the Arizona Cardinals have gone through for the last 10 off seasons.

Joe Mama