Hawks reported to offer JJ max contract

[JCSunsfan]

JJ does impact the game with those 4 rebounds and assists, because he is playing defense and back-up point guard.
However, when he does have those 4 rebounds and assists, they are usually along with the 15 - 20 points a game plus playing 40 minutes.

Johnson's defense is fine, but it certainly isn't world class. I'd say he's not much better than average defensively among NBA wings. He just looks much better than that in comparison to his teammates.

Johnson played very little backup PG during the regular season. I'd say it was probably 6-8 minutes per game on average at the most.

20/4/4 just isn't a max player to me.

Does Johnson deserve to be paid 60% more than Ginobili? I really don't think so. If you could have Johnson or Ginobili plus Bell for the same money, which would you pick?

C'mon now. If Ginobili were on the market right now, he'd be getting the max without question. That comparison doesn't hold water.

 

[George O'Brien]

C'mon now. If Ginobili were on the market right now, he'd be getting the max without question. That comparison doesn't hold water.

I agree. In 2003-04, Manu shot only 41.8% and 35.9% for three and was a backup. This season, he shot 47.1% and 37.6% for three. He just waited a year too long to have a breakout year. If he'd been on the market this season, he'd be able to get major money.

In any case, it is worth remembering that JJ is four years younger than Manu.

 

[playstation]

you must pay what the market dictates or suffer the consequences. in this case elindholm, the equation as i see it is the avoidance of discontinuity caused by JJ's absence is worth the price of a max contract.

If this is a bad deal down the road, guys can ALWAYS be traded (at least as long as Isiah is in the league lol), especially when they're young.

this has happened to SA in the form of Tony Parker. The guy had career highs of 15.5 pts and 5.5 asts. guys were available and the market was open. the spurs paid $66M over 6 years for him, which was much higher than people thought he was worth. however, the spurs paid market value, bet on the potential, and wanted the continuity. Despite some erratic play, it has worked.

JJ is a much safer bet imo than tony parker, and with the new agreement, a max for joe being around 5 yrs and $70M, its not THAT much more than parker...

 

[George O'Brien]

When the Nets bailed on K-Mart, the result was a disaster. Was K-Mart over paid? Yes. But whatever the Nets thought they were gaining, they turned around and gave away by vastly overpaying Richard Jefferson.

The NBA is a player's league. Teams can try to gain leverage, but individual players are too important to the team's success. Seattle overpaid Allen and Milwaukee overpaid Redd - because they could not afford not to. They could not replace those players AT ANY PRICE.

That's the problem facing the Suns. They cannot replace JJ. Yes, he will be overpaid, but not compared to what it would cost to replace him.

 

[Joe Mama]

JJ is a much safer bet imo than tony parker, and with the new agreement, a max for joe being around 5 yrs and $70M, its not THAT much more than parker...

Actually that significantly more than Parker's contract. Parker's contract is longer and averages $11 million per season. If JJ gets the max is contract averages $14 million per season.

I still haven't decided where I stand on re-signing JJ if it's going to take a maximum contract. Right now I'm leaning towards the "do what it takes to re-sign him" side.

I do agree with Eric about JJ's defense. JJ is a good, solid defender. He isn't a great defender.

If they do give him the big deal he better keep improving. That's what I would be counting on.

Joe Mama

 

[George O'Brien]

I can't believe the Hawks offer is real. If it is, then the Suns will be forced to match it. But if it is just a bluff, I'd hate to get paniced into a bad deal unnecessarily.

 

[JCSunsfan]

I can't believe the Hawks offer is real. If it is, then the Suns will be forced to match it. But if it is just a bluff, I'd hate to get paniced into a bad deal unnecessarily.

Notice that the word is that the contract has been offered by the Hawks--not that JJ has signed an offer sheet with the Hawks.

For JJ to sign such an offer would be risky. Most likely, the Suns have offered a six year deal that--in total--is more money than any other team can offer in a 5 year deal. So, while the average per year is more elsewhere, the guaranteed money is better with the Suns.

Second, there is always the outside chance that the Suns choose NOT to match. Then he would have to go to Atlanta. That cannot be anything but a bad career move.

Third, once a contract is signed, all sign-and-trade options are no longer allowed.

My prediction is that JJ will never even sign an offer sheet with another team.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

This is my take on Marion and JJ and being that I have developed this pattern of thinking after watching 12 years and an insane amount of NBA games, as well as watching what teams value every off season, i speak with at least a little credibility....

Marions numbers are very good. He does alot of thing s that JJ does not does such as rebound, steal, and block an occasional shot...these are all things that look great in the box after the game and if you take a players worth based on stats (which is how they pick all stars elindhom, to your argument about the 3 time all star that is marion) but you would have to be a considered a "casual" nba fan if you looked at the two players and thought Marion to be of more value. Ill give you a quote from the sports guys trade value article (and to me this guy is not only hilarious but dead on with his assessments)

Group G: "Shhhhhh … We'll Discuss Him, But You Can't Tell Anyone"
25. Shawn Marion – Skewered by the usual suspects (you know, the guys who come on TV shows and start screaming about how so-and-so isn't showing any heart or so-and-so is embarrassing himself) for his gawd-awful Spurs series (7.8 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 39 percent shooting) … but what did you expect? San Antonio didn't allow him to shoot open 3s, Phoenix's running game never got going, and Marion can't create his own shot. So what's left? Doesn't change the fact that he's a good player.

21. Joe Johnson – Great way to separate diehard NBA fans from casual NBA fans: When Johnson broke his face during the Dallas series, the casuals said, "Well, that's all right, they still have Q and Jimmy Jackson," while the diehards said, "Oh, boy, they're screwed." But with Johnson eligible for max money and Phoenix needing to cut payroll, J.J. could end up being the best young player on the market since Wes Unseld gave up on Rasheed Wallace about 12 years too early.

These statements are not just held by some "homer" from arizona....the guy is from boston and Tony Mejia, marc stien and numerous other national reporters have come out and said JJ if unrestricted he was the best player (combining age, skill set, size )available. You are absolutly kidding yourself if you think the suns value marion more that JJ.

Shawn cant create his own shot......(this is his biggest downfall)
Shawn cant handle the ball
Shawn cant shoot straight on a consistent basis
Shawn cannot be counted on for offense at the end of games
Shawn cant set up teammates

Basically shawn is great to have as the third best player on your team and if hes the fourth (which he is) then you are a championship team. Your whining that JJ's career high is 31 pts and never gets double figure assists or rebounds makes you sound like a stat crazy novice of a fan. I have no doubt that you watch alot of games, but over the last few years marion is the one player who you would look at the box after the game and say "how the heck did he get those numbers???" its because he doesnt impact the game the way JJ does with ball handling, shooting, and perimeter defense (not stealing the ball but staying in front of your man, another stat deciever) The problem w/ Marion is you cant pay the max to the "ultimate role player" in the NBA which is what shawn is. Anyone who cant carry the offense at any given stretch should not have a max deal. Period.

JJ has not only shown that he will work to improve his game (notice his shooting percentages after shooting 500 jumpers a day last off season) he has shown that he will be good in the locker room (a irritable marion is starting to come out of the woodwork with his "no respect tagline" always preceding games now). Shawn is a big part of our success but he totally ruins your argument. If JJ doesnt deserve max money in your book then there is no way in h-ll that shawn does, and the suns realize this which why they will pay JJ and trade shawn at the latest next off season. Guys like Joe dont come around all that often.

As for your top 5 shooting guards (giggle giggle) Yes Kobe and Ray Allen are better players right now (although Ray is turning 30 and thats important to note) but Micheal Redd is not (lack of size, look at what teams have been telling ESPN, Joe is much more coveted by those in the know for numerous reasons) Larry Hughes (please Larry Hughes cant shoot like JJ although he does fill up the stat box so hes probaly your favorite player, in case you were wondering Simmons ranked him 39 on his trade value list) and Tmac IS a small forward (look at the rockets roster and tell me that they have tmac at the two, and three guys backing him up there) Oh But they have all been all stars!!!! What was i thinking?????
You cant rely on just stats elindhom and ill show you why

Marbury over 8 assists a game

Hughes 2.96 steals a game (because he doesnt play solid face up d he gambles)

A Walker (on hawks) 20.4 points per game (they based thier entire offense around him and he shot 19 times a game at a 41% clip)

One last point...in two to three years when Marions all world athleticism begins to erode he will become a VERY marginal player...good thing he got his max early in his career..ok thats my JJ rant for the day...

 

[The Commish]

This is my take on Marion and JJ and being that I have developed this pattern of thinking after watching 12 years and an insane amount of NBA games, as well as watching what teams value every off season, i speak with at least a little credibility....

Marions numbers are very good. He does alot of thing s that JJ does not does such as rebound, steal, and block an occasional shot...these are all things that look great in the box after the game and if you take a players worth based on stats (which is how they pick all stars elindhom, to your argument about the 3 time all star that is marion) but you would have to be a considered a "casual" nba fan if you looked at the two players and thought Marion to be of more value. Ill give you a quote from the sports guys trade value article (and to me this guy is not only hilarious but dead on with his assessments)

Group G: "Shhhhhh … We'll Discuss Him, But You Can't Tell Anyone"
25. Shawn Marion – Skewered by the usual suspects (you know, the guys who come on TV shows and start screaming about how so-and-so isn't showing any heart or so-and-so is embarrassing himself) for his gawd-awful Spurs series (7.8 ppg, 10.8 rpg, 39 percent shooting) … but what did you expect? San Antonio didn't allow him to shoot open 3s, Phoenix's running game never got going, and Marion can't create his own shot. So what's left? Doesn't change the fact that he's a good player.

21. Joe Johnson – Great way to separate diehard NBA fans from casual NBA fans: When Johnson broke his face during the Dallas series, the casuals said, "Well, that's all right, they still have Q and Jimmy Jackson," while the diehards said, "Oh, boy, they're screwed." But with Johnson eligible for max money and Phoenix needing to cut payroll, J.J. could end up being the best young player on the market since Wes Unseld gave up on Rasheed Wallace about 12 years too early.

These statements are not just held by some "homer" from arizona....the guy is from boston and Tony Mejia, marc stien and numerous other national reporters have come out and said JJ if unrestricted he was the best player (combining age, skill set, size )available. You are absolutly kidding yourself if you think the suns value marion more that JJ.

Shawn cant create his own shot......(this is his biggest downfall)
Shawn cant handle the ball
Shawn cant shoot straight on a consistent basis
Shawn cannot be counted on for offense at the end of games
Shawn cant set up teammates

Basically shawn is great to have as the third best player on your team and if hes the fourth (which he is) then you are a championship team. Your whining that JJ's career high is 31 pts and never gets double figure assists or rebounds makes you sound like a stat crazy novice of a fan. I have no doubt that you watch alot of games, but over the last few years marion is the one player who you would look at the box after the game and say "how the heck did he get those numbers???" its because he doesnt impact the game the way JJ does with ball handling, shooting, and perimeter defense (not stealing the ball but staying in front of your man, another stat deciever) The problem w/ Marion is you cant pay the max to the "ultimate role player" in the NBA which is what shawn is. Anyone who cant carry the offense at any given stretch should not have a max deal. Period.

JJ has not only shown that he will work to improve his game (notice his shooting percentages after shooting 500 jumpers a day last off season) he has shown that he will be good in the locker room (a irritable marion is starting to come out of the woodwork with his "no respect tagline" always preceding games now). Shawn is a big part of our success but he totally ruins your argument. If JJ doesnt deserve max money in your book then there is no way in h-ll that shawn does, and the suns realize this which why they will pay JJ and trade shawn at the latest next off season. Guys like Joe dont come around all that often.

As for your top 5 shooting guards (giggle giggle) Yes Kobe and Ray Allen are better players right now (although Ray is turning 30 and thats important to note) but Micheal Redd is not (lack of size, look at what teams have been telling ESPN, Joe is much more coveted by those in the know for numerous reasons) Larry Hughes (please Larry Hughes cant shoot like JJ although he does fill up the stat box so hes probaly your favorite player, in case you were wondering Simmons ranked him 39 on his trade value list) and Tmac IS a small forward (look at the rockets roster and tell me that they have tmac at the two, and three guys backing him up there) Oh But they have all been all stars!!!! What was i thinking?????
You cant rely on just stats elindhom and ill show you why

Marbury over 8 assists a game

Hughes 2.96 steals a game (because he doesnt play solid face up d he gambles)

A Walker (on hawks) 20.4 points per game (they based thier entire offense around him and he shot 19 times a game at a 41% clip)

One last point...in two to three years when Marions all world athleticism begins to erode he will become a VERY marginal player...good thing he got his max early in his career..ok thats my JJ rant for the day...

My sentiments exactly AZ. What happens when Marion loses a step, or worse, tears his ACL? His game becomes very average because like you said, he can't create his own shots. That's why all along I have been saying that the Suns will match any offer for JJ, even if it means trading Marion sooner than later.

I love Marion and all that he does for the game, but his game relies soley on his athleticism. JJ's is more than that. I think the Suns know that, and I would put money on Marion being traded before his contract is up. No offense to Marion, but thats just the way the cookie will end up crumbling.

 

[elindholm]

I agree with the criticisms of Marion, and I also agree that it's not a good idea to read too much into his All-Star selections. But right now, everyone is making glorious projections about Johnson's future based on the apparent trajectory his career is on. Everyone agrees he isn't there yet. As Chaplin has pointed out, you just can't credibly argue that Johnson was more important to the team last year than Marion was. If you had to subtract one from last year, it would definitely be Johnson, no contest.

Had Marion gone down instead of Johnson in the Dallas series, would the Suns still have advanced? I doubt it.

My point about All-Star teams was that Johnson hasn't even been close to consideration. For a maximum player not even to merit discussion about an All-Star selection tells you that something is wrong.

I like Bill Simmons a lot and agree with most of what he says, but he's not the ultimate authority on everything. He had Stoudemire something like 11th on last year's "trade value" list, at least a couple of slots behind Yao. So he's sometimes wrong.

Also, Simmons takes salaries into consideration, and I bet he would have dropped Johnson more than a few notches on that list had he known we'd absolutely be talking about a maximum contract.

Let's put it this way. If Altanta signs Johnson to a maximum deal and he goes, is anyone going to be thinking, "Wow, the Hawks really made a great move by stealing Johnson from the Suns"? No way. They'll be saying, "The Hawks gave Johnson $70 million over five years? That's awfully bizarre, but I guess it's a crazy market this summer." And if the Hawks decide a year from now that they want to trade him, how much success will they have? Not a lot.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

point taken.... but as im sure you have noted...STAT has since moved to # 2 on his list and that is fair considering the incremental leap he has taken from year two to three......

 

[elindholm]

STAT has since moved to # 2 on his list and that is fair considering the incremental leap he has taken from year two to three.....

Is your argument that Simmons is sometimes right, or that he's always right? I already said I agree with most of what he says.

 

[Arizona's Finest]

ok ok im not president of the Bill Simmons fan club or anything....i just tend to agree with most of what he says (thus making us both right all the time ) and the point i was really trying to make was he is a national writer (as you made a comment to the fact that if your POV was seen as the gospel, we would be considered "homers" for thinking otherwise) and I mentioned "Tony Mejia, Marc Stein" (and Chad Ford and Marty Burns for that matter) as examples of other national reporters that will back my ascertations about Joe. I just used the quotes from Simmons, but i can get the others quotes if it will pacify you.......

 

[elindholm]

i was really trying to make was he is a national writer (as you made a comment to the fact that if your POV was seen as the gospel, we would be considered "homers" for thinking otherwise) and I mentioned "Tony Mejia, Marc Stein" (and Chad Ford and Marty Burns for that matter) as examples of other national reporters that will back my ascertations about Joe.

Okay, got it, but we're still talking about two different things. Johnson's perceived value this summer is elevated compared to his regular-season performance, to a degree that I think is unrealistic. Marion's isn't. That's all I'm really saying.

 

[JCSunsfan]

Had Marion gone down instead of Johnson in the Dallas series, would the Suns still have advanced? I doubt it.

Interesting question. Marion was definitely more valuable last year because we didn't have many player who could do what Marion does best--rebound.

If JJ goes down, Q and Jim Jackson should be able to fill the role--ideally. If Marion goes down, Amare has to slide over to pf, and Hunter becomes Marion's replacement. There is no way that Hunter could fill the rebounding void left behind by Marion.

But this year, KT's presence at pf--with Marion sliding back to sf, makes Marion's role less critical. If he goes down now, KT is there to rebound, and Jim Jackson, JJ, Bell, or even Finley (if we get him) could fill in.

We no longer have last year's team, Q is gone, KT is here and that changes almost everyone's role.

 

[coloradosun]

My sentiments exactly AZ. What happens when Marion loses a step, or worse, tears his ACL? His game becomes very average because like you said, he can't create his own shots. That's why all along I have been saying that the Suns will match any offer for JJ, even if it means trading Marion sooner than later.

I love Marion and all that he does for the game, but his game relies soley on his athleticism. JJ's is more than that. I think the Suns know that, and I would put money on Marion being traded before his contract is up. No offense to Marion, but thats just the way the cookie will end up crumbling.

AZ and RedStripe I agree on all counts about Marion vs. JJ. Marion is a utility player, can do a lot of things with ease but does not have any specialties. He is definitely a guy you do not want to have the ball in his hands at crunch time, never has and never will want it at that time either. Amare and JJ can become great go-to guys, Marion does not have the skills to handle that type of pressure. Max players should be able to win you games not just have good stats.

 

[Joe Mama]

AZ and RedStripe I agree on all counts about Marion vs. JJ. Marion is a utility player, can do a lot of things with ease but does not have any specialties. He is definitely a guy you do not want to have the ball in his hands at crunch time, never has and never will want it at that time either. Amare and JJ can become great go-to guys, Marion does not have the skills to handle that type of pressure. Max players should be able to win you games not just have good stats.

answer this question honestly. If you had to take one of these players from last year's team do you think the Phoenix Suns of 2004-05 would have been worse off without JJ or Shawn Marion?

The Phoenix Suns looked pretty good in the playoffs even after JJ was injured. Some people here have brought up that Steve Nash was exhausted. I agree, but that had more to do with the lack of depth off the bench than anything. Bell alone could have really helped with that problem. A lot of that also had to do with the way the Dallas Mavericks defended the Suns, and the ridiculous way Phoenix had to face a rested San Antonio team about 36 hours after that hardfought overtime victory in Dallas.

My point? It's that you would expect a team with little depth to miss a maximum player, a guy that's going to get $14 million per season, more than the Phoenix Suns missed Joe Johnson. I know there's no way to prove it because it's hypothetical, but I don't think the Phoenix Suns get past Dallas with Shawn Marion injured.

Someone questioned why Atlanta would even agree to a sign and trade. Essentially it's a bribe to guarantee that the Phoenix Suns don't match the offer. They can also get an extra year on the deal if that's what Atlanta and JJ want. Those are the reasons Denver agreed to a sign and trade last year with New Jersey for Kenyon Martin.

I still don't know whether I think they should match a maximum offer for JJ.

 

[playstation]

why do you all seem to believe that once the suns sign JJ that they then have this ball-and-chain around their neck? its a risk. its not even a big risk imo. do you all just not take risks? no risk, no reward. if it doesn't work out, is it the end of the world? so you've got a 25 yr old max player in JJ, so what? he's not just going to start sucking. you have a TON of tradable assets.

jeez, you'd think you all would have learned from the perceived overpayment of Nash last year. even i learned from that.

In the NBA, you don't let a great young player with no personal problems leave because of $10M. That is asinine. Look at who's done it: Donald Sterling (Andre Miller, Q, Danny Manning, etc). Bruce Ratner (Kenyon Martin). MAYBE Abe Pollin (Rasheed). Pacers owner (Brad Miller). That's it. So look at the names on that list, and tell me that those were good moves.

I can't believe that this is even a discussion, much less a heated one...

 

[thegrahamcrackr]

We matched the offer


http://www.arizonasportsfans.com/vb/showthread.php?p=734635#post734635

 

[Joe Mama]

why do you all seem to believe that once the suns sign JJ that they then have this ball-and-chain around their neck? its a risk. its not even a big risk imo. do you all just not take risks? no risk, no reward. if it doesn't work out, is it the end of the world? so you've got a 25 yr old max player in JJ, so what? he's not just going to start sucking. you have a TON of tradable assets.

jeez, you'd think you all would have learned from the perceived overpayment of Nash last year. even i learned from that.

In the NBA, you don't let a great young player with no personal problems leave because of $10M. That is asinine. Look at who's done it: Donald Sterling (Andre Miller, Q, Danny Manning, etc). Bruce Ratner (Kenyon Martin). MAYBE Abe Pollin (Rasheed). Pacers owner (Brad Miller). That's it. So look at the names on that list, and tell me that those were good moves.

I can't believe that this is even a discussion, much less a heated one...

Andre Miller was a disaster with the LA Clippers. They did not want him back, and it had little to do with the money. I don't think they really wanted Q back either. Supposedly he had trouble getting along with some of his teammates. Let's not forget that the Phoenix Suns just had to give a nice first-round draft pick to trade 26-year-old Q for a 33 year-old Kurt Thomas. New Jersey Nets played poorly last season without Kenyon Martin, but I would argue that he is well overpaid by Denver. I'm not sure the Nuggets would make that deal again. Even though he's older and not as good defensively if New Jersey lands SAR this summer for less than half the cost of Martin they'll be happy campers.

We'll see in a few years how constricted this maximum deal was going to be for the Phoenix Suns. They are going to be flirting with the luxury tax by next summer. The suns probably did have to match the offer to show everyone they are serious about making a championship run next season. I imagine it also as something to do with getting Amare to sign that maximum extension.

Although I don't think JJ is a maximum player now I will go on record as saying I think it was the right move to make. We can assume all day that the Suns would have been able to sign Michael Finley for the minimum if they had let JJ walk. We don't know that though. We also can't assume that Atlanta would have given anything back in a sign and trade deal if the Suns had tried to go in that direction. The only thing we do know for sure is if they had let him walk a little they have $2-3 million to spend this summer to replace him (they wouldn't get that $1.7 million exception either).

I guess I'm not excited about JJ making $14 million per season, but I think it was the right move for the organization at this time. I said the same thing about Shawn Marion when they announced his extension. At least the trade restrictions are looser now if/when the Phoenix Suns have to move some of these big salaries.

Joe Mama

 

[sunsfn]

answer this question honestly. If you had to take one of these players from last year's team do you think the Phoenix Suns of 2004-05 would have been worse off without JJ or Shawn Marion?

The Phoenix Suns looked pretty good in the playoffs even after JJ was injured. Some people here have brought up that Steve Nash was exhausted. I agree, but that had more to do with the lack of depth off the bench than anything. Bell alone could have really helped with that problem. A lot of that also had to do with the way the Dallas Mavericks defended the Suns, and the ridiculous way Phoenix had to face a rested San Antonio team about 36 hours after that hardfought overtime victory in Dallas.

My point? It's that you would expect a team with little depth to miss a maximum player, a guy that's going to get $14 million per season, more than the Phoenix Suns missed Joe Johnson. I know there's no way to prove it because it's hypothetical, but I don't think the Phoenix Suns get past Dallas with Shawn Marion injured.

Someone questioned why Atlanta would even agree to a sign and trade. Essentially it's a bribe to guarantee that the Phoenix Suns don't match the offer. They can also get an extra year on the deal if that's what Atlanta and JJ want. Those are the reasons Denver agreed to a sign and trade last year with New Jersey for Kenyon Martin.

I still don't know whether I think they should match a maximum offer for JJ.

Joe,
You say that the suns looked pretty good without JJ in the Dallas series.

If JJ does not get hurt the suns beat Dallas in probably 5 games. Nash does not have to do his 3 game MVP play because JJ is there to do the scoring and playing the point for Nash so he can rest. You talk about Bell for reserve, Joe, Bell was not on the team, JJ was the backup point, JJ would have been the reserve for Nash. You can not make an example and talk about a player that was not there. Such as, If we would have had Michael Jordan to back up JJ when he was hurt we may have played as well without JJ.

And yes, the suns get by Dallas without Marion just like they did without JJ. The suns are a better team than Dallas.

However, the suns do not get by Dallas without Amare.

Also, if the suns had JJ and beat Dallas in 5 games, they would have had the same days rest as the spurs and they never lose 2 games to start the series in Phx.
When JJ went down we did not have a chance to beat the spurs. If Marion goes down we do not have a chance to beat the spurs either.
If Amare goes down, we do not win a game against the spurs in the playoffs.

D'Antoni said after the loss to the spurs, that JJ was as tired as he had ever seen him.
JJ getting hurt really hurt this team in the playoffs. He did not play for almost two weeks and never could get his legs back to play against the spurs in such a short time.

-

 

[Joe Mama]

Joe,
You say that the suns looked pretty good without JJ in the Dallas series.

If JJ does not get hurt the suns beat Dallas in probably 5 games. Nash does not have to do his 3 game MVP play because JJ is there to do the scoring and playing the point for Nash so he can rest. You talk about Bell for reserve, Joe, Bell was not on the team, JJ was the backup point, JJ would have been the reserve for Nash. You can not make an example and talk about a player that was not there. Such as, If we would have had Michael Jordan to back up JJ when he was hurt we may have played as well without JJ.

The point is that the Phoenix Suns do have Bell off the bench now if Jimmy Jackson starts. The point is last year's bench was pathetic and almost nonexistent once Jimmy Jackson stepped into the starting lineup to replace the injured JJ. Your Michael Jordon comparison to my argument is flat out absurd.

And yes, the suns get by Dallas without Marion just like they did without JJ. The suns are a better team than Dallas.

However, the suns do not get by Dallas without Amare.

Also, if the suns had JJ and beat Dallas in 5 games, they would have had the same days rest as the spurs and they never lose 2 games to start the series in Phx.
When JJ went down we did not have a chance to beat the spurs. If Marion goes down we do not have a chance to beat the spurs either.
If Amare goes down, we do not win a game against the spurs in the playoffs.

You may be right. However I would argue again that the Phoenix Suns probably wouldn't have needed a $14 million a player to beat Dallas in 5 games if they would have had a decent bench. by no means am I saying that the Phoenix Suns didn't miss JJ. I'm saying that the starting lineup played well without him, and it was the bench that really suffered.

D'Antoni said after the loss to the spurs, that JJ was as tired as he had ever seen him.
JJ getting hurt really hurt this team in the playoffs. He did not play for almost two weeks and never could get his legs back to play against the spurs in such a short time.

-

I agree. Despite his great Game 6 performance I don't think we saw the best of JJ after he came back from breaking his face.

I definitely think the Phoenix Suns are better with him re-signed. Don't get me wrong. I know he is a valuable player who makes the lineup better. I was just questioning whether he is really worth $14 million per season to THIS team.

Joe

 

[Arizona's Finest]

ok everyone wants to keep making the argument that JJ is harder to stomach at 14 million a year. and i agree, things would be much nicer if we would have signed him last year at the discounted price. but i understand why what happened took place and hindsight is twenty-twenty. But as most have been saying is that these players have all the leverage becuase as George O'brian said earlier, you can either overpay or lose your asset because you were not sure if he was worth that extra two million a year....thats just the way it is.

In reality of the pay scale, Redd in no way deserves to be making the amount of money he is being paid and ideally he is your second best player. but hes being paid like the man because it would have been a disaster on every front if Redd bolted. All the time and money (they matched an offer Dallas handed him two or three years ago) they used developing the player would have been all for naught. Losing JJ would be a little less davastating as Amare is the man on our team but that doesnt mean he is expendable. Hes young, ideal body with a big time skill set. More so than the more heralded Redd. The suns traded for him, let him play through his inconsistencys early on, and gave him his chance, when other teams (i guess only the celtics.....) were not as sold...JJ is a perfect storm of good scouting and good development by the Suns brass and to let a player of his caliber get away at this age can only be compared to T-MAC leaving Toronto...If you remember, many of the same things being said about JJ were being said about McGrady (potential, height, shooting, less athleticism, defensive player) when he bolted to Orlando. Toronto looked very bad after they spent a high pick on him and got him to develop and then Orlando was the team that reaped the benefits (and eventually Houston...) I am not saying Joe is going to be in Tmac's caliber of player for sure, but to discount that he def. will not, is also as similar a shot in the dark. We just dont know....but the tools are there and I certaintly dont want to be thinking in 3 years..."dang all amare needs is a stud two guard like they use to have with joe."
here is my point and i will put in caps so the emphasis is realized.....ITS NOT WHAT A PLAYER IS WORTH ON A STAND ALONE BASIS (COMPARED TO OTHER PLAYERS AT THEIR POSITION MAKE)THAT GETS THEM PAID. THEIR SALARY IS BASED ON THEIR VALUE TO THE TEAM.....to my point the Lakers would love to have JJ at like 5 million, but being that they have a player at that position making tons of money, they would not value joe at the 14 million that we might be willing to pay him

Another point is that everyone wants to keep saying "If you take Marion off last years team or JJ, answer honestly who was more important to the teams success." While thats a different argument, I agree that Marion was more important last year......Saying that we are not giving JJ 14 million FOR LAST YEAR. We are paying for production over the course of his contract. And i would make the case that JJ will be more important than shawn next year and if not then, then assuredly the season after. Thats an opinion i guess but thats an opinion based on following this team very closely and i would love for anyone to refute me otherwise. So while shawn was very important to last year, my money goes to the guy who will team with Amare to make the other NBA teams crazy for the next ten years...

 

[Joe Mama]

ok everyone wants to keep making the argument that JJ is harder to stomach at 14 million a year. and i agree, things would be much nicer if we would have signed him last year at the discounted price. but i understand why what happened took place and hindsight is twenty-twenty. But as most have been saying is that these players have all the leverage becuase as George O'brian said earlier, you can either overpay or lose your asset because you were not sure if he was worth that extra two million a year....thats just the way it is.

In reality of the pay scale, Redd in no way deserves to be making the amount of money he is being paid and ideally he is your second best player. but hes being paid like the man because it would have been a disaster on every front if Redd bolted. All the time and money (they matched an offer Dallas handed him two or three years ago) they used developing the player would have been all for naught. Losing JJ would be a little less davastating as Amare is the man on our team but that doesnt mean he is expendable. Hes young, ideal body with a big time skill set. More so than the more heralded Redd. The suns traded for him, let him play through his inconsistencys early on, and gave him his chance, when other teams (i guess only the celtics.....) were not as sold...JJ is a perfect storm of good scouting and good development by the Suns brass and to let a player of his caliber get away at this age can only be compared to T-MAC leaving Toronto...If you remember, many of the same things being said about JJ were being said about McGrady (potential, height, shooting, less athleticism, defensive player) when he bolted to Orlando. Toronto looked very bad after they spent a high pick on him and got him to develop and then Orlando was the team that reaped the benefits (and eventually Houston...) I am not saying Joe is going to be in Tmac's caliber of player for sure, but to discount that he def. will not, is also as similar a shot in the dark. We just dont know....but the tools are there and I certaintly dont want to be thinking in 3 years..."dang all amare needs is a stud two guard like they use to have with joe."
here is my point and i will put in caps so the emphasis is realized.....ITS NOT WHAT A PLAYER IS WORTH ON A STAND ALONE BASIS (COMPARED TO OTHER PLAYERS AT THEIR POSITION MAKE)THAT GETS THEM PAID. THEIR SALARY IS BASED ON THEIR VALUE TO THE TEAM.....to my point the Lakers would love to have JJ at like 5 million, but being that they have a player at that position making tons of money, they would not value joe at the 14 million that we might be willing to pay him

Another point is that everyone wants to keep saying "If you take Marion off last years team or JJ, answer honestly who was more important to the teams success." While thats a different argument, I agree that Marion was more important last year......Saying that we are not giving JJ 14 million FOR LAST YEAR. We are paying for production over the course of his contract. And i would make the case that JJ will be more important than shawn next year and if not then, then assuredly the season after. Thats an opinion i guess but thats an opinion based on following this team very closely and i would love for anyone to refute me otherwise. So while shawn was very important to last year, my money goes to the guy who will team with Amare to make the other NBA teams crazy for the next ten years...

I have an overwhelming sense of déjà vu right now.

Joe Mama