Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
Bengals safety Lamont Thompson a 2nd rounder also sat out because of the same reason. It figures that the Cards and Bengals both do the same thing....
Heard on KDUS that both Johnson and Pace are not going to participate in drills!
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Bengals safety Lamont Thompson a 2nd rounder also sat out because of the same reason. It figures that the Cards and Bengals both do the same thing....
Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
Re: Re: Re: Heard on KDUS that both Johnson and Pace are not going to participate in drills!
Well I happen to think what you think is BS....so we agree on that.
And the Cal DB was drafted not too far off where he was projected to go...actually Kiper has US taking him with number 37. Personally, I wouldn't want him at all, but it isn't like he wasn't on teams (or draftniks) radar screens.
That argument that you are making is flimsy at best. If the Cards spent a first rounder on these two, then they deserve what any first rounder drafted at there spot gets.
I wouldn't take a second rate offer if I was Pace or Johnson either, and it is total bs to expect them to take a bs offer that 30 teams do better. If the Cards want to change how they are viewed by players, fans, etc. they have to change things like this.
Anyway.....relax. Take a deep breath. Everything is going to be alright!
Well I happen to think what you think is BS....so we agree on that.
And the Cal DB was drafted not too far off where he was projected to go...actually Kiper has US taking him with number 37. Personally, I wouldn't want him at all, but it isn't like he wasn't on teams (or draftniks) radar screens.
That argument that you are making is flimsy at best. If the Cards spent a first rounder on these two, then they deserve what any first rounder drafted at there spot gets.
I wouldn't take a second rate offer if I was Pace or Johnson either, and it is total bs to expect them to take a bs offer that 30 teams do better. If the Cards want to change how they are viewed by players, fans, etc. they have to change things like this.
Anyway.....relax. Take a deep breath. Everything is going to be alright!
az643dp
"The Tugboat"
You should all listen to the Rod Graves interview from Thursday's From the Bleachers Show. Graves does a good job of clarifying this injury waiver system. It is not as bad as we are making it out to be. It takes two sides to agree on things and both sides need to make concessions.
Houdini
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From today's Tribune:
Cards' 1st rounders likely won't practice
By Darren Urban, Tribune
The Arizona Cardinals begin minicamp today, and for a second straight year, practice will likely be without the team’s first-round draft picks.
First-rounder Wendell Bryant skipped the offseason workouts last summer because he refused to sign the mandatory injury waiver. As of Thursday night, it was unlikely that receiver Bryant Johnson and defensive end Calvin Pace — the 17th and 18th picks of Saturday’s first round — would sign theirs either.
“We’re still continuing to discuss issues of injury protection,” vice president of football operations Rod Graves said. “I’m expecting both Pace and Johnson to be here and involved in meetings. They may not be participating in on-field work.”
Both players were at the team’s facility Thursday night.
The injury waiver is the document that guarantees payment to the players should they be injured before signing a contract. The Cardinals are one of the few teams that do not specifically “slot” the amount of money for the waiver, instead listing a minimum amount and promising to negotiate in good faith on a contract even if the player gets injured. The agents want a guarantee of the likely signing bonus, in this case $3 million to $4 million.
The agents for Pace and Johnson did not return phone messages. Graves did say the team is working on a solution and hopes to have the problem resolved by the time rookie minicamp starts June 2. Last summer, Bryant never signed the waiver and also held out of training camp, leaving him with no on-field work until he signed a week into the regular season.
Graves said the other draft picks all signed their waivers and will participate today.
EXTRA POINT: Free-agent receiver Marcus Robinson agreed to a one-year contract with Baltimore on Thursday, after the Cardinals’ interest faded on the veteran following the draft. “The Cardinals had first crack at Marcus,” said his agent, Ken Sarnoff. But while Sarnoff added he never heard back from Arizona this week, Graves said he did leave multiple messages with Sarnoff and never received a call back.
Cards' 1st rounders likely won't practice
By Darren Urban, Tribune
The Arizona Cardinals begin minicamp today, and for a second straight year, practice will likely be without the team’s first-round draft picks.
First-rounder Wendell Bryant skipped the offseason workouts last summer because he refused to sign the mandatory injury waiver. As of Thursday night, it was unlikely that receiver Bryant Johnson and defensive end Calvin Pace — the 17th and 18th picks of Saturday’s first round — would sign theirs either.
“We’re still continuing to discuss issues of injury protection,” vice president of football operations Rod Graves said. “I’m expecting both Pace and Johnson to be here and involved in meetings. They may not be participating in on-field work.”
Both players were at the team’s facility Thursday night.
The injury waiver is the document that guarantees payment to the players should they be injured before signing a contract. The Cardinals are one of the few teams that do not specifically “slot” the amount of money for the waiver, instead listing a minimum amount and promising to negotiate in good faith on a contract even if the player gets injured. The agents want a guarantee of the likely signing bonus, in this case $3 million to $4 million.
The agents for Pace and Johnson did not return phone messages. Graves did say the team is working on a solution and hopes to have the problem resolved by the time rookie minicamp starts June 2. Last summer, Bryant never signed the waiver and also held out of training camp, leaving him with no on-field work until he signed a week into the regular season.
Graves said the other draft picks all signed their waivers and will participate today.
EXTRA POINT: Free-agent receiver Marcus Robinson agreed to a one-year contract with Baltimore on Thursday, after the Cardinals’ interest faded on the veteran following the draft. “The Cardinals had first crack at Marcus,” said his agent, Ken Sarnoff. But while Sarnoff added he never heard back from Arizona this week, Graves said he did leave multiple messages with Sarnoff and never received a call back.
WisconsinCard
Herfin BIg Time
Did they have any insurance when they worked out at the combine? Can't blame them for trying to protect what they have already earned though.
Im sorry but I really dont care what other teams do.
Its the other teams problems that they arent willing to protect themselves like the Cardinals do!
The Cardinals have millions of dollars at stake with these players and I dont blame them at all for not wanting to committ 3+ Million 6 total to two players who havent proven dick in the NFL!
Regardless of what they did in college they dont deserve to be guaranteed anything IMO! None of them do! Its about time a team doesnt give in to these youngsters basically holding the team hostage for money!
Just because other teams are willing to guarantee money to these players doesnt mean that they deserve it any more. It just means they give in to the status quo and nothing more!
Just like Wendell Bryant last year if he would have signed the waiver and been hurt if I remember correctly he would have been guaranteed something like 350,000 bucks ohhh poor Wendell. I feel for him :roll:
Granted its not the couple million had he signed a contract but it is a nice chunk of change. Plus we all know how the Bidwells are if they say they will negotiate in good faith you can pretty much bank that thats what they are going to do! They are known for loyalty and keeping there word!
These guys need to be in mini camp physically participating!
Oh and CB you cant say that if we are all in there place we would do the same thing because many of us wouldnt like many of the athletes before them they sign the waiver and practice ala Leonard davis ala Thomas Jones ala David Boston etc........
Its the other teams problems that they arent willing to protect themselves like the Cardinals do!
The Cardinals have millions of dollars at stake with these players and I dont blame them at all for not wanting to committ 3+ Million 6 total to two players who havent proven dick in the NFL!
Regardless of what they did in college they dont deserve to be guaranteed anything IMO! None of them do! Its about time a team doesnt give in to these youngsters basically holding the team hostage for money!
Just because other teams are willing to guarantee money to these players doesnt mean that they deserve it any more. It just means they give in to the status quo and nothing more!
Just like Wendell Bryant last year if he would have signed the waiver and been hurt if I remember correctly he would have been guaranteed something like 350,000 bucks ohhh poor Wendell. I feel for him :roll:
Granted its not the couple million had he signed a contract but it is a nice chunk of change. Plus we all know how the Bidwells are if they say they will negotiate in good faith you can pretty much bank that thats what they are going to do! They are known for loyalty and keeping there word!
These guys need to be in mini camp physically participating!
Oh and CB you cant say that if we are all in there place we would do the same thing because many of us wouldnt like many of the athletes before them they sign the waiver and practice ala Leonard davis ala Thomas Jones ala David Boston etc........
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Cbus cardsfan
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Graves' flimsy excuse was that he doesn't want other teams setting the parameters for his players.WHAT??????Putting a waiver in there only guarantees that you will pay the aplyer comparable to his draft selection.Graves makes it sound like they have to copy the contract of other teams and their terms to the players around the 17 and 18 picks.Tis makes no sense to me at all.Yet,Graves will use those contracts in the negotiations for Pace and Bryant.There he is talking out of both sides of his mouth again.Another thing to think about is that Boller was picked at 19.QB's usually get paid alot more and you know that will come into play with the Cards contract talks.Boller will probably get a bigger contract than warranted and that will lead to another holdout for the Cards picks.
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I respect your opinion on this issue Shane but it really just baffles me when people use the argument that the Cardinals, with their one playoff win in 50 years, are doing things right and the other 31 teams just don't get it.
If anything, common sense would argue the exact opposite. What are we doing that causes us to constantly lose talent and have a negative perception around the league?
Crap like this.....that's what.
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Re: Re: Heard on KDUS that both Johnson and Pace are not going to participate in drills!
Krang we are getting this mind meld thing going or something!
Completely agree the Cards are relying on peer pressure and fear of bad PR to convince kids to ignore this but it's plain unfair. As Ed said the whole NFL is doing this except us, and it's not us it's the insurance company who would pay(Bidwill presumably has to pay some monthly fee to get the insurance).
This is just a classic case of Bidwill refusing to join the rest of the NFL on something that is fair.
IF this is such a big deal to the Cards why don't they sign both guys before the mini camp? Palmer is signed if we can't do the waiver thing why can't we sign them to contracts so they're protected against injury?
Krang we are getting this mind meld thing going or something!
Completely agree the Cards are relying on peer pressure and fear of bad PR to convince kids to ignore this but it's plain unfair. As Ed said the whole NFL is doing this except us, and it's not us it's the insurance company who would pay(Bidwill presumably has to pay some monthly fee to get the insurance).
This is just a classic case of Bidwill refusing to join the rest of the NFL on something that is fair.
IF this is such a big deal to the Cards why don't they sign both guys before the mini camp? Palmer is signed if we can't do the waiver thing why can't we sign them to contracts so they're protected against injury?
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Some of you sure are ballsy when it comes to gambling other people's money and careers.
"You pansy, you ***, get out there and play!!"
"He still gets $350,000 if he gets hurt, oh boo hoo!"
If you were in their shoes, and the option was sign the Cardinals waiver and get $350,000 or get drafted by any of the 31 other teams and get $3 or $4 million, I don't suspect you'd be so flippant about the decision. It sure is easy to call them names and accuse them of laziness when it ain't <b>your</b> money or career on the line.
And for the 100th time, it ain't Bidwill's either. Insurance would pay. And he already pays the same insurance premium one way or another.
"You pansy, you ***, get out there and play!!"
"He still gets $350,000 if he gets hurt, oh boo hoo!"
If you were in their shoes, and the option was sign the Cardinals waiver and get $350,000 or get drafted by any of the 31 other teams and get $3 or $4 million, I don't suspect you'd be so flippant about the decision. It sure is easy to call them names and accuse them of laziness when it ain't <b>your</b> money or career on the line.
And for the 100th time, it ain't Bidwill's either. Insurance would pay. And he already pays the same insurance premium one way or another.
It is easy! I could say I would sign the waiver like many players before them like I listed above ala Leonard Davis ala Thomas Jones ala David Boston etc.....
So saying we wouldnt do it if in the same position is asinine Ed! You might not but I sure would and wouldnt scoff at the 350,000 either!
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The point is, every rookie in this league gets paid without "proving anything". For the cardinals to think they can somehow change the system or operate differently from the other 31 teams and expect players to be happy about it is pretty silly.
Cardinals.Ken
That's Mr. Riff-Raff to you!
This policy by the Cardinals is asinine! It's time for this franchise (and others with their frame of thought) to enter the 21st Century!
And if anyone thinks going into practice without written assurances that if injured one will still get a contract comparable to what one would receive if healthy would be asinine as well!
Guaranteed $350,000 from waiver insurance? Let's break that down...
First, take out the tax, which would be a the highest tax bracket for what the IRS would consider a gift/bonus (it would not be considered earnings) at 48%, that leaves $182,000
Next take out your agents cut. For argument’s sake, let's say 20%, which would leave it at $145,600.
Barring any sort of other expenses they may have (like moneys borrowed in lieu of getting drafted)...the IRS will hit them again with the income tax next year at he same high rate of around 40-45%, in this case let's call it 40%.
So risking their NFL careers nets them a maximum of $87,360! That only equivalent to 2 years pay at a decent job!
Now consider that these guys have been football players for major NCAA programs, and are more than likely, completely unprepared to enter the work force! What kind of jobs would they be able to get to earn a living? How long would they be able to live off of around $90,000? Sound like a lot, but it would fizzle in about two to three years, if they were frugal.
And don't try to convince that the Cardinals would still negotiate in good faith if wither Johnson or Pace got injured before signing a contract.
Ask Chris Gedney about the Bidwill's "good faith" practices!
And if anyone thinks going into practice without written assurances that if injured one will still get a contract comparable to what one would receive if healthy would be asinine as well!
Guaranteed $350,000 from waiver insurance? Let's break that down...
First, take out the tax, which would be a the highest tax bracket for what the IRS would consider a gift/bonus (it would not be considered earnings) at 48%, that leaves $182,000
Next take out your agents cut. For argument’s sake, let's say 20%, which would leave it at $145,600.
Barring any sort of other expenses they may have (like moneys borrowed in lieu of getting drafted)...the IRS will hit them again with the income tax next year at he same high rate of around 40-45%, in this case let's call it 40%.
So risking their NFL careers nets them a maximum of $87,360! That only equivalent to 2 years pay at a decent job!
Now consider that these guys have been football players for major NCAA programs, and are more than likely, completely unprepared to enter the work force! What kind of jobs would they be able to get to earn a living? How long would they be able to live off of around $90,000? Sound like a lot, but it would fizzle in about two to three years, if they were frugal.
And don't try to convince that the Cardinals would still negotiate in good faith if wither Johnson or Pace got injured before signing a contract.
Ask Chris Gedney about the Bidwill's "good faith" practices!
Granted its not the couple million had he signed a contract but it is a nice chunk of change. Plus we all know how the Bidwells are if they say they will negotiate in good faith you can pretty much bank that thats what they are going to do! They are known for loyalty and keeping there word!
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Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? You expect these guys to go out and risk injury and just rely on good faith that the Cards will somehow take care of them even though they're not obligated to?????
Ask Chris Gedney how that worked out
Cardinals.Ken
That's Mr. Riff-Raff to you!
Off topic, but considering the turn time we had contacting Mr. Sarnoff (via email and phone), Graves looks like a complete lying jackass! And what makes him think that Sarnoff would call back if he was already talking turkey with other teams?
What a joke!
Originally posted by Ed B
Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? You expect these guys to go out and risk injury and just rely on good faith that the Cards will somehow take care of them even though they're not obligated to?????
Ask Chris Gedney how that worked out
Correct me if Im wrong but was Chris Gedneys injury football related? I dont believe it was was it?
Cardinals.Ken
That's Mr. Riff-Raff to you!
No it wasn't. But was it an exsisting condition (ulcerative colitis) that he had when he originally signed here. He was cut during the off-season before he was scheduled to have surgery to alleviate some of it's symptoms.
And why was he cut?
So that the Cardinals insurance carrier wouldn't have to foot the bill for the surgery or have to pay dispensation in case his life threatening surgery left him dead or permantly disabled.
So what if they re-signed him after it was all said and done. The damage to the Cardinals reputation as an organization was done.
Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
Let me tell you this. I've talked to Chris Gedney like a thousand times (he lives like a few blocks away from my parents). I almost quit being a Cardinals fan for what they did to him and I personally know five or six people who never forgave the organization for what they did to him. The man was very ill, and the Cards tried to crush his hope of ever playing again.
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Ken, actually after all the negative press, the team DID change it's mind and decide to pay some of his medical bills (how sweet of them) but by cutting him instead of putting him on IR they avoided paying his salary.
Cardinals.Ken
That's Mr. Riff-Raff to you!
You're not the only one Krang. I'm sorry for bringing this up. The more I think about how that was handled, the sicker I get.
I'm dropping it now...
Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
People who actually believe that the team isn't at fault don't realize one thing. This is now what will happen to us EVERY year. This team must be the most idiotic team in the league.
If I were Pace and Johnson, there is no way in hell that I would work out and risk losing millions. Those two have to make their money now to provide for them for the rest of their lives. NFL players have lifelong debilitating injuries and deserve every penny of every contract they get. Anyone who argues other wise, does not know the reality of football.
If I were Pace and Johnson, there is no way in hell that I would work out and risk losing millions. Those two have to make their money now to provide for them for the rest of their lives. NFL players have lifelong debilitating injuries and deserve every penny of every contract they get. Anyone who argues other wise, does not know the reality of football.
Krangodnzr
Captain of Team Conner
They made up for it SOMEWHAT...but the damage was still done in some regards, and I think it is still bad PR.
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