Hey, dad, can I see your check??

[ajcardfan]

your child sees your check and thinks you are rich even if you make 15k a year. Showing your child your paycheck just gives them the wrong idea on everything.

My kids aren't that stupid. They know how much we make and why they get what they do when they do. Even my first grader can follow the reasoning.

 

[40yearfan]

My kids aren't that stupid. They know how much we make and why they get what they do when they do. Even my first grader can follow the reasoning.

And he probably has a lot more common sense than a number of these NFL players.

 

[BigRedRage]

Unless you live in or near the inner city, it isn't, so stop whining about it. I can understand your frustration with the system, but privatizing all education? Brother, you're talking about creating an upper class and a peasant class. Most middle class and lower families could never afford to do that, unless they take only the property taxes they already pay and get that quality education you're espousing. And being able to swing that isn't very likely.

But, I should cut myself off. This is a volatile topic that belongs in the political forum.

if the thousands of schools went private prices would drive down dramatically

 

[BigRedRage]

My kids aren't that stupid. They know how much we make and why they get what they do when they do. Even my first grader can follow the reasoning.

i dont think that has anything to do with stupidity, maybe if you lay out the entire budget and show it it would make sense but even to that point money seems a lot different when you are younger and not paying for everything.

but 40 yr is right, many athletes are down in those lower levels

 

[kerouac9]

if the thousands of schools went private prices would drive down dramatically

What is this based on, wishes and dreams?

 

[Cardiac]

So why not ask for the last 25 years? How about 50? The more info the better I guess.


I would assume they want to see how NFL teams were doing before the last CBA. You know, to determine if the hardship the owners are crying about is legit.

I understand what cooking the books is, but it sets a bad precedent when you make your entire financial books available. It is private information for a reason. I cant imagine a major business like the NFL would "cook the books" unless its name is Enron. This is a trust issue and clearly, its D Smith who has an issue, which he is manifesting on his own.

Do you realize that you do condtridict yourself here. Enron is just one example of companies that get creative with accounting. Why would NFL teams automatically be considered innocent or incapable of these tactics. Every public complany has to disclose their finances yearly for their stockholders. Every company must file an earnings report with the IRS. So that precident has been set by every company that has stockholders.

Canuck stated that the financials would be reviewed by a 3rd party agreed upon by both sides. This is what the NFLPA asked for IIRC.

It isn't just D Smith that has trust issues, it's a vast majority of the players and at least this fan.

In addition, can you imagine how much information is in the books for the past 10 seasons? A medium size businesses' books are larger than a copy of "War and Peace." Think of how much information would have to be sorted through. When you account for all of the NFL financials along with those of each team, how much paperwork would auditors have to go through? It would delay the negotiations that much more simply because of the time and labor it would take for auditors to comb through every page. Then afterward, what's to say the decertified NFLPA wouldnt ask for more?

[COLOR="darkred"This information is already there. Every company has financial books completed every year, it's SOP. Gotta track the money and expenses for the IRS.[/COLOR]

Again, the disclosure 5 years of profits, which accounts for all moneys made since the last CBA, is more disclosure than ever given to the union. When you are divulging information that the NFL doesnt even show to its own teams, you are really showing a genuine resolve to get a fair deal done. Its the decertified NFLPA that is [B]acting like children saying that they want more when it is absolutely unnecessary [/B]and as I alluded to, will only take a significant amount of time to complete the auditing process. And if they are truly concerned with finaincial backing, look at the Packers, whose books, by law, have to be divulged to the public.

[COLOR="darkred"]I already responded to most of this. We have examples of both sides acting like children at times. Jerry (Forrest Gump) Richardson has had several "winning" moments. Jerry Jones is an arrogant self important piece of crap and proved that again (see K9's post/link to SI article).
[/COLOR]

I dont think the average NFL fan understands that if the owners give in to the former NFLPA's request, they would be opening Pandora's box for this CBA and future negotiations.

Please explain to this avg fan what kind of Pandora's box issues would be released. The owners would have to spin why they lied and are making far more money then they have led us to believe?

 

[Derm]

Please explain to this avg fan what kind of Pandora's box issues would be released. The owners would have to spin why they lied and are making far more money then they have led us to believe?

As a tax accountant, I see the issue, as one of privacy. My business is run via my corporation. My clients and my employees have no right to see my books or my tax returns.

A public corporation has a different set of disclosure rules which are regulated by federal & state laws (like federal anti-trust regs, state corporate commissions, SEC and a litany of other regulatory agencies) as well as guidelines by AICPA.

If there is a suspected violation of the law, then the proper authority has the right to inspect based upon court order, but to open the books for the monetary benefit of an employee is just foolish.

Yes, I know the old adage "well, if you have nothing to hide..." but is a "guilty until proven innocent" scenario. That shouldn't be the basis of mistrust.

It's tax season and I must be going and do "secret" stuff. Oh yes, Pandora and all her parts give their regards.

 

[BigRedRage]

What is this based on, wishes and dreams?

supply and demand.

 

[Cardiac]

As a tax accountant, I see the issue, as one of privacy. My business is run via my corporation. My clients and my employees have no right to see my books or my tax returns.

A public corporation has a different set of disclosure rules which are regulated by federal & state laws (like federal anti-trust regs, state corporate commissions, SEC and a litany of other regulatory agencies) as well as guidelines by AICPA.

If there is a suspected violation of the law, then the proper authority has the right to inspect based upon court order, but to open the books for the monetary benefit of an employee is just foolish.

Yes, I know the old adage "well, if you have nothing to hide..." but is a "guilty until proven innocent" scenario. That shouldn't be the basis of mistrust.

It's tax season and I must be going and do "secret" stuff. Oh yes, Pandora and all her parts give their regards.

Thanks for the info.

I would argue that the NFL is a differnt situation then most other companies.

I worked for a retail company that gave us a monthly/quarterly/yearly store profitability report (Most companies call this Profit Loss report. We were encouraged to share this report with our entire staff. Employees understanding how much actually trickles down to the bottom line was an eye opening experience for them. Many retail companies run at an operating margin of 5% or lower. 5 cents kept for each dollar that goes into the register changed my employees perspective. Cut down on some whining and complaining.

I would venture a guess that the excact opposite would happen if the owners opened their books since their bottom lines are far more then they have let on.

Pandora is a special lady.

 

[john h]

some do, yup. should be performance based.

In Wisconsin the "average" teachers pay is $56.000 and for every dollar in pay they receive they receive $.76 in benefits. That is near $100,000 per year for the "Average". They receive two retirement benefits which are fully paid for by the state.

I do not know how much they work on school business during the three month summer break but I would think they had a lot of time for fun things. $100,000 a year in salary and benefits package seems more than reasonable. I doubt that many people on this board exceed the package the average teacher in Wisconsin receives. My information comes from the WSJ.

Wisconsin is in a terrible financial position and has no choice but to change the way bargaining occurs or to immediately fire 1600 teachers. They still have a union and can still bargain for wages but no longer can bargain for retirement issues or other such benefits.

 

[kerouac9]

In Wisconsin the "average" teachers pay is $56.000 and for every dollar in pay they receive they receive $.76 in benefits. That is near $100,000 per year for the "Average". They receive two retirement benefits which are fully paid for by the state.

I do not know how much they work on school business during the three month summer break but I would think they had a lot of time for fun things. $100,000 a year in salary and benefits package seems more than reasonable. I doubt that many people on this board exceed the package the average teacher in Wisconsin receives. My information comes from the WSJ.

Wisconsin is in a terrible financial position and has no choice but to change the way bargaining occurs or to immediately fire 1600 teachers. They still have a union and can still bargain for wages but no longer can bargain for retirement issues or other such benefits.

John, do you have a source for any of this? Truly, does this make sense to you? Do you really think that the state of Wisconsin is paying their teachers $100,000 a year? Honestly. Think about that for a moment.

EDIT: You're obviously correct about the average salary for a teacher: http://www.teacher-world.com/teacher-salary/wisconsin.html

But while the possible top value of health insurance may be $40,000, do you think that teachers, who hate taking sick days, actually use that amount of money? I get that some people mindlessly parrot what they hear on the news, but they should think about that for a few moments. Drive through the parking lot at your nearest elementary school during the week and tell me if you see a bunch of wealthy people parked there.

 

[BigRedRage]

even without the health stuff, 56 is a high number for "average"

 

[kerouac9]

even without the health stuff, 56 is a high number for "average"

For a work force that is entirely college educated and a large potion of which has a post graduate degree? That's probably less then the average of a similar workforce and much less than your precious private school (which frequently doesn't require certification or minimum training.

 

[john h]

You should probably stop spouting this kind of nonsense until you actually find out what's going on in these schools. It's not the teachers' fault that their students are selling $1 ******** in the basement of their schools, as what happened with one of my friends who was in Teach for America in a DC school.

How do you expect to attract the best teachers to underperforming schools if you decide to pay inner-city teachers less? Maybe we should just teach these kids to stitch soccer balls instead of reading and writing.

My understanding that in many school districts and cities the teachers get to select the schools they teach in by seniority. That would surely send the new teachers to the worst schools. Another very serious problem exist in the way teachers are fired and I think this is in most Union contracts. The newest teachers are fired first. No thought given to who are the best performing teachers. Many of the worst are the older ones who have enough seniority that they never have to worry about being fired.

Recently some teachers were found to be teaching the test to students and even correcting their mistakes when giving the test. The student grades on these national test were used as a measure of performance of the teacher and school so the reason is obvious why this was occurring. In this case it was the students who told the parents what was happening. This probably goes on more than most know.

The results of these nation wide test often show trends that can cast a doubt on the real outcomes of the test. When a school suddenly has a 50% increase in test scores in one year then it raises a red flag. We need to keep the best teachers not the ones who have been at their job the longest.

 

[john h]

So you are saying inner city kids don't deserve the best teachers. I see.

In many cases the union has in there contract that the teacher with the most seniority has the choice of what school they teach in. The new teachers would obviously end up in the worst performing schools. We also need to keep the best teachers and fire the worst. In the Unions, in many cases, the facts are is that last to be hired will be the first to be fired regardless of teaching ability.

 

[BigRedRage]

For a work force that is entirely college educated and a large potion of which has a post graduate degree? That's probably less then the average of a similar workforce and much less than your precious private school (which frequently doesn't require certification or minimum training.

they are all post grad where I am, its awesome. My 3rd grade daughter is working on 5th grade tests. Go real school.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

they are all post grad where I am, its awesome. My 3rd grade daughter is working on 5th grade tests. Go real school.

Undergraduate degree: BA
Graduate degree: MA
Post-Graduate: PhD

(All of your children's teachers have Doctorates? All Professors at Harvard don't have post-graduate degrees.)

 

[BigRedRage]

i was going one step ahead, graduate degree is required. not a phd.

 

[Crazy Canuck]

i was going one step ahead, graduate degree is required. not a phd.

Up here, other than teachers near the end of their careers, it would be quite rare to find a teacher without a Masters degree in either the public or private system.

 

[gamebird98]

My understanding that in many school districts and cities the teachers get to select the schools they teach in by seniority. That would surely send the new teachers to the worst schools. Another very serious problem exist in the way teachers are fired and I think this is in most Union contracts. The newest teachers are fired first. No thought given to who are the best performing teachers. Many of the worst are the older ones who have enough seniority that they never have to worry about being fired.

Recently some teachers were found to be teaching the test to students and even correcting their mistakes when giving the test. The student grades on these national test were used as a measure of performance of the teacher and school so the reason is obvious why this was occurring. In this case it was the students who told the parents what was happening. This probably goes on more than most know.

The results of these nation wide test often show trends that can cast a doubt on the real outcomes of the test. When a school suddenly has a 50% increase in test scores in one year then it raises a red flag. We need to keep the best teachers not the ones who have been at their job the longest.

How do you determine "the best teachers"?