Hill to Become 3 Point Threat?!?!

[Rab]

Wow a little overboard! Dantoni simply said he needs to not be shy and if a shot is there take it, not Grant needs to chuck up hundreds of 3pt shot attempts. Wow we replace a scrub in JJ with freakin Grant Hill and people still bitch about this team...just wow!

Nobody griping about the team, just the way their new aquisition may be used. Completely different.

 

[Mike Olbinski]

Here is my problem. Look at D'Antoni's track record for making players doing things outside their comfort zone? You can't tell me a guy shooting 18% is going to be comfortable doing that. I am sure the Hill will get opportunities playing in a point forward role.

It just amazes me that D'Antoni continues to be stubborn about what he "thinks" players should be and then when it doesn't work out, they sit on the bench. THAT is what I don't want to see.



No he didn't. His exact words were that "Hill needs to learn to shoot the 3 point shot.". Also, we are not bitching about the team as much as basically stating that D'Antoni and his philosophy really worries people some time. Nobody is saying it's doom and gloom. Wow...I am amazed you got that out of this thread...just wow.

It's hard not to get doom and gloom out of this thread...from Hill needs to learn 3-point shooting...to all this stuff about how stubborn he is, losing his job, etc.

You guys can think what you want of course...but I still think if you come to play in Phoenix, learn to shoot the three. That's our style. D'Antoni isn't going to change it just because Grant Hill shows up.

And since we were like THIS close to making it all the way last year, I'm fine with WHATEVER he wants to do.

 

[Covert Rain]

Nobody griping about the team, just the way their new aquisition may be used. Completely different.

It's hard not to get doom and gloom out of this thread...from Hill needs to learn 3-point shooting...to all this stuff about how stubborn he is, losing his job, etc.

You guys can think what you want of course...but I still think if you come to play in Phoenix, learn to shoot the three. That's our style. D'Antoni isn't going to change it just because Grant Hill shows up.

And since we were like THIS close to making it all the way last year, I'm fine with WHATEVER he wants to do.

I just think D'Antoni worries people sometimes. He wanted Marcus to run the point and become more of a distributer. That didn't work. He wanted Jalen to add punch off the bench. That didn't work out. So Mike, I think it's obvious D'Antoni isn't going to change his style for any player. He hasn't in the past. The issue is if your going to bring guys in here, play to their strengths and don't try and turn guys into something there not. If we are that close (which I think we are) then add pieces that compliment your team not pieces that you think you can change.

Grant Hill to me can put us over the top. Not because he will develop into a 3 point threat but because he adds another legit player on this team that create his own shot and gets other guys involved.

 

[Rab]

I just think D'Antoni worries people sometimes. He wanted Marcus to run the point. That didn't work. He wanted Jalen to add punch off the bench. That didn't work out. So Mike, I think it's obvious D'Antoni isn't going to change his style for any player. He hasn't in the past. The issue is if your going to bring guys in here, play to their strengths and don't try and turn guys into something there not. If we are that close (which I think we are) then add pieces that compliment your team not pieces that you think you can change.

Grant Hill to me can put us over the top. Not because he will develop into a 3 point threat but because he adds another legit player on this team that create his own shot and get other guys involved.

Don't forget about the way he wanted LB to play before he finally said screw it, let him be a scorer.

It's hard not to get doom and gloom out of this thread...from Hill needs to learn 3-point shooting...to all this stuff about how stubborn he is, losing his job, etc.

You guys can think what you want of course...but I still think if you come to play in Phoenix, learn to shoot the three. That's our style. D'Antoni isn't going to change it just because Grant Hill shows up.

And since we were like THIS close to making it all the way last year, I'm fine with WHATEVER he wants to do.

We have enough players shooting 3's. A little less in the 3 point dept is not going to kill us, if we're getting high percentage shots from the inside. Sometimes we live and die off threes. Why not change it up a bit when you have a player that can do that.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

SteelDog says: Here is my problem. Look at D'Antoni's track record for making players doing things outside their comfort zone? You can't tell me a guy shooting 18% is going to be comfortable doing that. I am sure the Hill will get opportunities playing in a point forward role.

Ok, there's that 18% being thrown out there again. When you say "18%", yeah that sucks, but you're taking a stat and driving an assumption that he can't shoot the ball from three. I see how good of a shooter he is and I think he can. Here is why;

Most of his piss poor year he shot like 5-15 three pointers in a season, I don't know if you play basketball pick up often, but go shot a three pointer once every six games for a year and come back with your stats. You need to get some type of rhythm when you shoot to keep you deep shot mechanics up to par.

Plus, in years where Hill took 30+ he was shooting like 34%. So if you look at it this way, why couldn't he shoot 34% or better if he put in say an extra hour a day in practice shooting threes. I don't know I guess the fact that Grant Hill is one of the most talented basketball players ever he might be able to do it.

I don't think they are trying to change Grant Hill, I just think it is a slight adjustment. Your looking at 80-100 threes a season and when he is open, which is nothing when you compare that to Leandro, Nash and Raja

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

well, then I'll just make my call right now, if we don't win the title next year, DA's a goner. Westy was done in by the fact that he couldn't get the team over the hump IMO. The Barkley-KJ feud had very little to do with it IMO.

you're a bonehead. i was just arguing this very point with you last weekend and you argued the opposite.

btw, this cements my opinion of dantoni. when you enter a relationship you don't hope to change someone (that's a failing proposition), you better love 'em for who they are. same here. hill's not a three point shooter. we knew that before we signed him. he excels in other areas. now we want this grizzled vet to change his already effective game? gimme a break. dantoni's digging his own grave, unfortunately he's digging it wide enough to swallow all of nash's remaining mvp caliber years as well...

 

[Covert Rain]

Most of his piss poor year he shot like 5-15 three pointers in a season, I don't know if you play basketball pick up often, but go shot a three pointer once every six games for a year and come back with your stats. You need to get some type of rhythm when you shoot to keep you deep shot mechanics up to par.

You make some good points and I have been playing league basketball since I was out of HS. So yes I understand what your trying to say. However, in almost every case when a player practices and knows his own limitations that usually translates in not attempting certain things beyond your capabilities (a la the 3). I bet Grant Hill has practiced enough 3 pointers and shot enough to know it's not part of his game.

I don't think they are trying to change Grant Hill, I just think it is a slight adjustment. Your looking at 80-100 threes a season and when he is open, which is nothing when you compare that to Leandro, Nash and Raja

I am not saying that Grant is 100% in capable of getting better. All I am saying is that if you brought Grant Hill in here to count on his 3 point shooting to win you a title then D'Antoni is a stubborn idiot.

I hope (and think) that Grant Hill was brought in for his all round game and ability to create. That's what I think anyway. I just don't like when a coach has an opportunity to comment on what Hill can do to help your team the first thing out of your coaches mouth is how he needs to change.

 

[Treesquid PhD]

You make some good points and I have been playing league basketball since I was out of HS. So yes I understand what your trying to say. However, in almost every case when a player practices and knows his own limitations that usually translates in not attempting certain things beyond your capabilities (a la the 3). I bet Grant Hill has practiced enough 3 pointers and shot enough to know it's not part of his game.



I am not saying that Grant is 100% in capable of getting better. All I am saying is that if you brought Grant Hill in here to count on his 3 point shooting to win you a title then D'Antoni is a stubborn idiot.

I hope (and think) that Grant Hill was brought in for his all round game and ability to create. That's what I think anyway. I just don't like when a coach has an opportunity to comment on what Hill can do to help your team the first thing out of your coaches mouth is how he needs to change.

me too. I thought it was especially stupid to try and make Rose exclusively a three point shooter, but I think this is different. Hill is going to start so he will have more floor time to make stuff happen.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Ok, there's that 18% being thrown out there again. When you say "18%", yeah that sucks, but you're taking a stat and driving an assumption that he can't shoot the ball from three. I see how good of a shooter he is and I think he can. Here is why;

Most of his piss poor year he shot like 5-15 three pointers in a season, I don't know if you play basketball pick up often, but go shot a three pointer once every six games for a year and come back with your stats. You need to get some type of rhythm when you shoot to keep you deep shot mechanics up to par.

Plus, in years where Hill took 30+ he was shooting like 34%. So if you look at it this way, why couldn't he shoot 34% or better if he put in say an extra hour a day in practice shooting threes. I don't know I guess the fact that Grant Hill is one of the most talented basketball players ever he might be able to do it.

I don't think they are trying to change Grant Hill, I just think it is a slight adjustment. Your looking at 80-100 threes a season and when he is open, which is nothing when you compare that to Leandro, Nash and Raja

trust me, if he could shoot it effectively he would have. it's called enhancing your arsenal. it makes you more dangerous. and it's never easy to just "extend your range a few feet" some people are limited in their range. and finally your most ludicrous comment . . . "put in say an extra hour a day in practice" . . . do you remember one of his key reasons for coming to phoenix? i think it was easier, shorter practices (i'm paraphrasing). he wants to take it easy on the body, not put in more work.

 

[Stargazer]

does anyone else have a feeling that this is it for DA this year, win or else?

and before anyone chimes in with a "yeah, a guy who won 62, 54 and 61 games, yada, yada, yada", go look up Paul Westphaul's numbers his first three years with the Suns and notice when his tenure ended. this team has too much talent on it not to win the title next year and the only thing that can seemingly hold us back is philosophy, for good or bad.

I strongly disagree with this. By definition, half of all teams have losing records, and only a handful of coaches win a championship even once in their careers. "Win it all or else" is an impossibly high standard, and throwing out a great coach because he routinely positions his team to win it all but hasn't quite done it yet is a recipe for mediocrity in the long run.

The standard argument against D'Antoni, as I read it, is that the bar should be higher for D'Antoni because the Suns have enough talent to win it all, so it must be his coaching that holds the team back. I think that's probably backwards.

I love Nash and I love the Suns, but surely we all realize that the Suns overperform to their talent in the regular season because they have an unusual style that teams can't or won't adapt to during the regular season. Even for teams that might be able to beat the Suns, it's just not worth it to try to develop a strategy to beat them at their running game during the regular season.

It's like facing a knuckball pitcher in baseball. Pitching knuckballs isn't necesarily more effective than standard pitches -- if it were, then everyone would do it. Instead, it works because almost nobody does it, and therefore batters don't figure it's worth it to practice much against it.

That's the real reason the Suns struggle in the post-season: over a seven game series, where it's win or go home, teams actually do make the effort to work out a strategy for competing against the Suns.

If you buy my argument, then the Suns are not actually as good as their win-loss record would suggest, and the individual players aren't as good as their stats might suggest. And yet, even taking all that into account, D'Antoni has the team right on the cusp of pulling it off anyway. I think if you brought another coach in who played a more conventional style, the team would lose an extra ten games a year and wouldn't be a contender.

And let me add, I wouldn't want it any other way. I like the Suns precisely because they are bucking conventional wisdom. I like Nash precisely because he finds a way to dominate the game even though he's short and slow and getting old (like me). I know not everybody feels this way, but I would rather take a chance with our style and lose than, say, play like the Spurs and win.

 

[azirish]

I can't think that anyone got seriously injured practicing threes, but I'll defer to your superior wisdon.

In another thread, I noted that Parker shot only 38 threes all last season - but seven in the finals while hitting four. In general, hitting a few threes is enough to force opponents to come out and guard the perimeter.

BTW, I think the switch of Diaw from starter to coming off the bench reflected the fact that Diaw's strength is as an Alvin Adams type center rather than an SF. Boris does quite well at the elbow but got into Amare's way.

 

[Cheesebeef]

you're a bonehead. i was just arguing this very point with you last weekend and you argued the opposite.

when was this? and how hammered was I when we were talking about it?!

 

[Cheesebeef]

So if the Suns get to the finals and lose in 7, D'anotni is a goner? The Suns would have some balls to make a move like that, they better bring in someone pretty damn good and not the tools and retreds I see being suggested on this board. And I mean like stealing Pop.

honestly, if this team actually beat SA and STILL lost in the Finals to a pathetic Leastern Conference team, I don't know what I'd say about DA.

 

[MaoTosiFanClub]

"Win it all or else" is an impossibly high standard

Not when you have by far the most individual talent in the league.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I strongly disagree with this. By definition, half of all teams have losing records, and only a handful of coaches win a championship even once in their careers. "Win it all or else" is an impossibly high standard, and throwing out a great coach because he routinely positions his team to win it all but hasn't quite done it yet is a recipe for mediocrity in the long run.

The standard argument against D'Antoni, as I read it, is that the bar should be higher for D'Antoni because the Suns have enough talent to win it all, so it must be his coaching that holds the team back. I think that's probably backwards.

I love Nash and I love the Suns, but surely we all realize that the Suns overperform to their talent in the regular season because they have an unusual style that teams can't or won't adapt to during the regular season. Even for teams that might be able to beat the Suns, it's just not worth it to try to develop a strategy to beat them at their running game during the regular season.

It's like facing a knuckball pitcher in baseball. Pitching knuckballs isn't necesarily more effective than standard pitches -- if it were, then everyone would do it. Instead, it works because almost nobody does it, and therefore batters don't figure it's worth it to practice much against it.

That's the real reason the Suns struggle in the post-season: over a seven game series, where it's win or go home, teams actually do make the effort to work out a strategy for competing against the Suns.

If you buy my argument, then the Suns are not actually as good as their win-loss record would suggest, and the individual players aren't as good as their stats might suggest. And yet, even taking all that into account, D'Antoni has the team right on the cusp of pulling it off anyway. I think if you brought another coach in who played a more conventional style, the team would lose an extra ten games a year and wouldn't be a contender.

And let me add, I wouldn't want it any other way. I like the Suns precisely because they are bucking conventional wisdom. I like Nash precisely because he finds a way to dominate the game even though he's short and slow and getting old (like me). I know not everybody feels this way, but I would rather take a chance with our style and lose than, say, play like the Spurs and win.

there's so much I disagree with in this thread from "the Suns over-perform in the regular season" to "individual players aren't as good as stats might suggest" to the "bar shouldn't be higher for DA" that I don't know even where to begin so I'll just go to your last point. I'd rather win at ANY style than be stubborn in thinking only our style is entertaining, even if it means we won't win it. but, hey to each his own.

I just think that if we don't win it, after four years, it's gonna be shown that the style won't get it done for the ultimate goal and if you're not getting yoour ulitmate goal, achieving anything else is just window-dressing.

 

[Joe Mama]

Mike D'Antoni isn't going anywhere. Nobody is asking Grant Hill to only shoot three pointers. He'll just have to take a few of them, and Mike D'Antoni wants him to hit them at a higher clip. I honestly don't think he'll have any trouble doing that. I'm not saying he's going to shoot 40% or better, but he's going to shoot at least 30% which will be fine.

I swear that some of you guys will just take anything that the Phoenix Suns say and turn it into the end of the world.

Joe

 

[Cheesebeef]

Mike D'Antoni isn't going anywhere. Nobody is asking Grant Hill to only shoot three pointers. He'll just have to take a few of them, and Mike D'Antoni wants him to hit them at a higher clip. I honestly don't think he'll have any trouble doing that. I'm not saying he's going to shoot 40% or better, but he's going to shoot at least 30% which will be fine.

I swear that some of you guys will just take anything that the Phoenix Suns say and turn it into the end of the world.

Joe

good lord Joe - you too with the hyperbole?

 

[Joe Mama]

good lord Joe - you too with the hyperbole?

Go take a look at what some of you guys are writing through this thread. I mean you guys seriously think that not winning a championship is going to get Mike D'Antoni fired? That's just about as extreme.

Perhaps it's reading this message board over the last few weeks when I haven't been around for a while. I mean there are a few people on this message board who take every single thing the Phoenix Suns do or say and put a negative spin on it.

Mike D'Antoni just doesn't want great help passing on wide open three-pointers or worse yet missing a lot of wide open three-pointers because it will allow the defense to sag. Frankly, I think he already knows that Grant Hill is not going to shoot 18% from the three point line in this system.

Joe Mama

 

[Mainstreet]

Go take a look at what some of you guys are writing through this thread. I mean you guys seriously think that not winning a championship is going to get Mike D'Antoni fired? That's just about as extreme.

Perhaps it's reading this message board over the last few weeks when I haven't been around for a while. I mean there are a few people on this message board who take every single thing the Phoenix Suns do or say and put a negative spin on it.

Mike D'Antoni just doesn't want great help passing on wide open three-pointers or worse yet missing a lot of wide open three-pointers because it will allow the defense to sag. Frankly, I think he already knows that Grant Hill is not going to shoot 18% from the three point line in this system.

Joe Mama

Thanks for some sanity.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Go take a look at what some of you guys are writing through this thread. I mean you guys seriously think that not winning a championship is going to get Mike D'Antoni fired? That's just about as extreme.

how many chances does a "great" coach get? Better question - how many chances does a great coach NEED to get his team over the hump? Why don't we look at the coaches who have won the last two decades of NBA titles and find out how long it took them to get there. How long did it take Jackson to get the Bulls over the hump? One year. How many years did it take Rudy T to get the Rockets over the hump? One year. What about Greg Popovich? 1 year. What about Phil Jackson AGAIN wiith the Lakers? Same year he started there. What about Larry Brown? Same year. What about Pat Riley with the Heat? Yeah, same year. You see a pattern there? That's ALL of the coaches who have won since 1990 and ALL of them showed they were THE MAN for THE job with THAT specific team almost IMMEDIATELY. I'm just saying that after FOUR years, we should know if DA can get the ultimate job done or not, especially considering this team is bar none, the most talented team, top to bottom, the league has probably seen since Showtime. There's no question, DA is a good coach, but is he championship material? At this point, he's yet to proven that he is and if you can't prove that within four years, unless somehow we were to land KG for nothing next off-season, then I think it's time to move on.

This news hasn't changed my stance all of a sudden in regards to DA. My stance has been the same since the end of the playoffs, and has only been emboldened by the Hill signing. There's simply too much talent on this team not to get over the hump. And the only way they don't get over the hump is if the talent isn't used properly.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Thanks for some sanity.

so now people who aren't happy with pre-mature exits are doom and gloomers or insane. Good lord.

 

[Rab]

No one is saying that Mike is going to be fired on a finals or not basis. It's going to be all about how he uses his talent to get where ever.

 

[azirish]

I strongly disagree with this. By definition, half of all teams have losing records, and only a handful of coaches win a championship even once in their careers. "Win it all or else" is an impossibly high standard, and throwing out a great coach because he routinely positions his team to win it all but hasn't quite done it yet is a recipe for mediocrity in the long run.

The standard argument against D'Antoni, as I read it, is that the bar should be higher for D'Antoni because the Suns have enough talent to win it all, so it must be his coaching that holds the team back. I think that's probably backwards.

I love Nash and I love the Suns, but surely we all realize that the Suns overperform to their talent in the regular season because they have an unusual style that teams can't or won't adapt to during the regular season. Even for teams that might be able to beat the Suns, it's just not worth it to try to develop a strategy to beat them at their running game during the regular season.

It's like facing a knuckball pitcher in baseball. Pitching knuckballs isn't necesarily more effective than standard pitches -- if it were, then everyone would do it. Instead, it works because almost nobody does it, and therefore batters don't figure it's worth it to practice much against it.

That's the real reason the Suns struggle in the post-season: over a seven game series, where it's win or go home, teams actually do make the effort to work out a strategy for competing against the Suns.

If you buy my argument, then the Suns are not actually as good as their win-loss record would suggest, and the individual players aren't as good as their stats might suggest. And yet, even taking all that into account, D'Antoni has the team right on the cusp of pulling it off anyway. I think if you brought another coach in who played a more conventional style, the team would lose an extra ten games a year and wouldn't be a contender.

And let me add, I wouldn't want it any other way. I like the Suns precisely because they are bucking conventional wisdom. I like Nash precisely because he finds a way to dominate the game even though he's short and slow and getting old (like me). I know not everybody feels this way, but I would rather take a chance with our style and lose than, say, play like the Spurs and win.

I'm not sure if the Suns have been overachieving, but it is certainly a plausible theory. The problem with that theory is that it means you cannot blame D'Antoni's coaching for not winning the championship. There are lot of people who are anxious to blame somebody.

There are a zillion recommended "cures" from trading the entire roster to turning the Suns into a bunch of thugs. But all of them assume that it is in the Suns power to materially change the situation.

My read on it is that the Suns are pretty close, but they are far from being an over dominat team. They have to play as well as they can and get a few positive breaks to win it. But I cannot see anybody taking this roster and doing better than D'Antoni.

 

[Joe Mama]

so now people who aren't happy with pre-mature exits are doom and gloomers or insane. Good lord.

You say the exits are premature. I'd say give them the personnel, the matchups, the injuries, etc. they were probably right on target. If the San Antonio Spurs have not won the NBA championship in 94-95 they would be saying that they were dismissed from the playoffs prematurely, and in my opinion they would probably be correct. in 95-96 they had some serious injury problems and still were right there.

I'm sorry, but we just haven't seen the unreasonable exit. My one complaint with Mike D'Antoni in this past playoffs was not playing Kurt Thomas more in game 1. That could have made a big difference of course, but I don't think he'll make that mistake again.

My point is that the fans of every good team think they are exiting prematurely. For two seasons before this past one injuries were a major factor in the team getting knocked off. You can go and say that every team faces injury problems, but that's not true. More often than not the team that wins the championship is a team that's fortunate enough to have good health all the way through.

Some of you guys act like the Phoenix Suns had the best record and were knocked out of the playoffs in the first round by the #8. I'd be right there with you if that was the case.

I know a lot of you guys on this message board would do a better job coaching the Phoenix Suns than Mike D'Antoni, but that doesn't change the fact that despite some issues we might have with some of his decisions he has done very, very well.

Joe

 

[YouJustGotSUNSD]

Any exit that doesnt carry a trophy home is premature and unreasonable.


Thats pretty basic imo