Hill to Become 3 Point Threat?!?!

[TucsonDevil]

It's not quite that simple. The Spurs play a style that the NBA endorses for the post season. The Suns don't. Bringing in a bump-and-grind coach would help, but the Suns really don't have the roster for that.

Yes, our team is built upon a specific coaching philosophy. BTW, I am a fan of this style and technique for the most part. However, D'Antoni's refusal to call TO when leads are evaporating is absolutely absurd. D'Antoni's reluctance to use his bench is nuts. And D'Antoni's system that relies on just one person to produce/create 85% of 'his' style is naive and nearsighted. He is so stubborn that he won't admit to his weaknesses. He simply has a mindset that says, "well, they can't stop my strengths - despite my weaknesses". And that is just false. I would appreciate Mike more if he would learn to adjust. But he is slow to change. I have often said that Mike is a great coach before the game, but a very below average coach during the game.

This is the year that I hope that Coach D'Antoni recognizes his shortcomings and takes corrective action. He plays the bench. He rests Nash in the regular season. He allows mistakes to take place during the season in hopes of lessons learned for the post season. He doesn't let leads vanquish 'because he didn't want to call TOs that would interrupt the flow'. He gives KT and Amare more time together during the season to prepare for post season match ups. I believe a CLEAR message was sent to Mike and the Suns this year, "The NBA will not be turned into the European League. We play tough and dirty. Get over it." OK, now will he?

I am rooting for Mike and the team. But let's not all act like its just roses with Mike and his crew. There exist serious cracks and rust in that armor - and a couple of coaches/players know exactly how to take advantage of it.

 

[Cheesebeef]

Are we absolutely sure he was being serious? D'Antoni haters

oh jesus christ! Are you freaking serious with the garbage? So people who now don't believe DA is the end all be all are HATERS? That's so freaking stupid/inflammatory crap.

if George calls people haters are the haters allowed to call him a moron? Because that's what "hater" implies - that you are a moron without a sane thought in your head.

seriously, this board can just be ridiculous. it ain't a black and white world folks. there are shades of grey (to borrow a line from the hot chick in Soul Man!).

 

[dbUNIT16]

I was at the Biltmore this week for a conference, and ran into Grant Hill with his wife and little girl this morning!

On the topic, I don't really think you can turn Hill into a three point threat, he's never been one, and I don't really expect him to be one with us. Let him do what he does best, which is not the 3!

 

[azirish]

The issue of calling timeouts when the other team starts making a run is something they need to look at, but IMHO the real problem is the Suns tendency to keep shooting low percentage shots when the other team is making a push.

In practical terms, the Suns style is not about D'Antoni, it's the Colangelos. They believe in the up tempo style and hired D'Antoni to make it work. They filled up on the kind players suited to that style well before Mike took over. JC went so far as to push through changes in the rules to encourage the kind of style he believes in.

I for one wanted more balance. I was amazed at how many people opposed the trade for KT a couple of years ago and how many people wanted to trade him last year and even right before the trade deadline. Where are all the "trade KT" fans now after it turns out he was essential to have a chance against the Spurs?

Beyond the need to play KT against the Spurs from the start, most of the other criticisms of D'Antoni seem to miss the core problem. The Spurs are vastly better at playing their style than anybody else is. If the Suns play like the Spurs, they lose in 4. Forget about how many All Stars the Suns have. Play slow down, bump and grind and the Suns lose.

Why is it so hard to understand that? It's not D'Antoni's fault that the Spurs have Duncan and the Suns don't. Was there somebody available last year at #29 that would have given the Suns a chance to beat the Spurs playing bump and grind?

D'Antoni's theory is that the only way to beat the Spurs is to get the tempo up and not let the Spurs get set in their half court defense. You may not like that strategy, but that is the approach the team has been built on for the last four to five years.

There is no evidence that changing the style during the regular season is going to make a material difference in being able to deal with the Spurs. D'Antoni's goal is to find ways to do a better job of what the Suns do best rather than doing a bad job of playing like the Spurs. Of course if they hired a hug to injure Duncan, I guess they COULD play like the Spurs.

 

[Rab]

The issue of calling timeouts when the other team starts making a run is something they need to look at, but IMHO the real problem is the Suns tendency to keep shooting low percentage shots when the other team is making a push.

The Suns don't really take horrible shots when teams are making a push, they just aren't making the shots they normally take. They still rely too much on long jump shots. They could get away with that in 05-06 because they had no reliable inside presence to get them easy shots. They had Amare back last year, yet they neglected to run much through him when teams were making a run. He is a guy who can stop runs by getting easy baskets, or getting fouled. That's an adjustment that the coaching staff needs to make.

In practical terms, the Suns style is not about D'Antoni, it's the Colangelos. They believe in the up tempo style and hired D'Antoni to make it work. They filled up on the kind players suited to that style well before Mike took over. JC went so far as to push through changes in the rules to encourage the kind of style he believes in.

Playing the style they play is great. I believe this is more how basketball should be played myself, only with better defense. It should be a fast paced game with ball movement, and great spacing. I don't see where they filled up on players before Mike got here though. They had Amare and Marion, and that's about it. JJ wasn't as productive yet, and LB was a rook I believe. When they got Nash, then things started falling into place. They then signed Q and began the small ball era here. The Suns are at their best when they play uptempo, but I don't think you can beat the best teams in the league if you can't adjust at certain points in a game. The Suns completely lack the ability to adjust, and part of that goes back to the Mike's philosiphy of speed will beat anything, which isn't true. But he won't budge from that, and presents no other alternative. If you look at a team like the Spurs, they can play up-tempo, and they can play slow. They are able to adjust and keep control of a game. The Suns can't.

I for one wanted more balance. I was amazed at how many people opposed the trade for KT a couple of years ago and how many people wanted to trade him last year and even right before the trade deadline. Where are all the "trade KT" fans now after it turns out he was essential to have a chance against the Spurs?

Beyond the need to play KT against the Spurs from the start, most of the other criticisms of D'Antoni seem to miss the core problem. The Spurs are vastly better at playing their style than anybody else is. If the Suns play like the Spurs, they lose in 4. Forget about how many All Stars the Suns have. Play slow down, bump and grind and the Suns lose.

One thing this team has always needed is size, so I'm not sure why some were opposed to the Kurt trade. I was sad to see Q go, because I became so attached to that team, but I understood why when we got exposed in the WCF's against SA, and I've always thought he should be a bigger part of the gameplan against any team. He doesn't hurt our running game that much. In fact, he helps it because he forces tough shots, and misses, which keeps the game moving. It seems silly to me to think that he should only play to be ready for the Spurs, but teams in the past have done things to prepare for one team in particular. How many teams stockpiled on bigs the past few years just to prepare for a possible matchup with a team that has Shaq? We aren't going to be able to beat SA at their game, and I don't why anyone would think we would, but you have to be able to adjust a little so you don't rely soley on 1 style of play.

D'Antoni's theory is that the only way to beat the Spurs is to get the tempo up and not let the Spurs get set in their half court defense. You may not like that strategy, but that is the approach the team has been built on for the last four to five years.

Yes, in order for this team to beat the Spurs, they are going to have to keep the game moving, but they should also be able play differently in stretches where the game isn't moving. D'Antoni refuses to address this. The Suns play their style of game better than anyone else, but somehow the Spurs are still able to run with us and beat us games where we control the tempo. What does that tell you? They adjust, and that makes them more dangerous. It's not just the Tim Duncan factor.

There is no evidence that changing the style during the regular season is going to make a material difference in being able to deal with the Spurs. D'Antoni's goal is to find ways to do a better job of what the Suns do best rather than doing a bad job of playing like the Spurs. Of course if they hired a hug to injure Duncan, I guess they COULD play like the Spurs.

I don't want the Suns to abandon their uptempo style, and I'm guessing that most others don't to, but it wouldn't hurt to throw a couple wrinkles in the offense. I'm tired of seeing this team be a one trick pony. Great teams make adjustments. Great coaches make adjustments. D'Antoni is a very good coach, but until he he becomes great at adjusting to teams, he won't be bumped up to that next level.

 

[Errntknght]

George,

Beyond the need to play KT against the Spurs from the start, most of the other criticisms of D'Antoni seem to miss the core problem. The Spurs are vastly better at playing their style than anybody else is. If the Suns play like the Spurs, they lose in 4. Forget about how many All Stars the Suns have. Play slow down, bump and grind and the Suns lose.

Why is it so hard to understand that? It's not D'Antoni's fault that the Spurs have Duncan and the Suns don't. Was there somebody available last year at #29 that would have given the Suns a chance to beat the Spurs playing bump and grind?

D'Antoni's theory is that the only way to beat the Spurs is to get the tempo up and not let the Spurs get set in their half court defense. You may not like that strategy, but that is the approach the team has been built on for the last four to five years.

There is no evidence that changing the style during the regular season is going to make a material difference in being able to deal with the Spurs. D'Antoni's goal is to find ways to do a better job of what the Suns do best rather than doing a bad job of playing like the Spurs. Of course if they hired a hug to injure Duncan, I guess they COULD play like the Spurs.

I can't for the life of me figure out who you are arguing against - I haven't seen anyone advancing the idea that we should adopt the Spurs style of play.

Is wanting Hill to continue playing the game the way he always has, a step down the slippery slope to Spurs style ball?

What about using the bench more and lengthening the leash on the subs? That does appear to be against D'Antoni's Euro derived style but its certainly not contrary to uptempo ball - at least it wouldn't be if Mike wouldn't fill the bench with antiques that can't keep up. If he'd drafted some youth in past years there wouldn't be near as much of an issue. (He could have drafted Milsap last year at #29 and we'd have had someone who could rebound and get up and down the floor fine - that wouldn't have hurt against the Spurs.)

I guess your line about changing the Suns style during the regular season refers to playing KT and Amare together a fair amount, which some people have advocated. That seems to a strange thing for you to get worked up about since you're such a staunch supporter of Thomas and having a more balanced lineup. Or maybe you have become an pure D'Antoni supporter - what ever the coach wants is best; he makes the big bucks so obviously he can't err.

 

[Cheesebeef]

George,

I can't for the life of me figure out who you are arguing against

the haters Knight! The Haters! You know, like all those people (who no one remembers) who blasted the Suns for getting Thomas and who for some inexplicable reason wanted him traded at this year's trading deadline. You know, all those people (who no one remembers).

 

[Joe Mama]

oh jesus christ! Are you freaking serious with the garbage? So people who now don't believe DA is the end all be all are HATERS? That's so freaking stupid/inflammatory crap.

if George calls people haters are the haters allowed to call him a moron? Because that's what "hater" implies - that you are a moron without a sane thought in your head.

seriously, this board can just be ridiculous. it ain't a black and white world folks. there are shades of grey (to borrow a line from the hot chick in Soul Man!).

I'm right here with you on this one cheese. I am a hater of posts where people are labeled as haters for being critical or somewhat pessimistic. You probably should have included a little bit more of his post though.

By the way, with the hyperbole?

"So people who now don't believe DA is the end-all and be-all are now haters?"

You and I both know that George doesn't believe Mike D'Antoni is the "end-all and be-all". We both know that he's talking about a few guys here who are constantly critical of coach Mike.

Joe

 

[azirish]

One of the problems with this year's team was the lack of another play maker than Nash. In 2004-05, JJ was not just jump shooter. He could get open for mid range shots and made a lot of assists. If we assume that Hill replaces JJ's role, this team looks to be a lot better. I think in comparing next season's team to the 2004-05, the best way is to look at personnel:

Stoudemire - Probably a little better and much better shooting fom the outside
Marion - Much the same though he cuts to the basket more
Nash- Much the same although he shoots a lot more three pointers than in 2004-05

Richardson - Bell: Bell is a much better shooter and a much better defender, but Q was a better rebounder

Johnson - Hill: Both good mid range shooter, both able to handle the ball and run the offense when Nash not on the floor. Johnson a better three point shooter while Hill goes to the basket more and attracts more fouls.

Jackson - Diaw: Jackson was big in the playoffs but during the regular season he had roughly the same ppg as Diaw. Jackson's big advantage was his three point shooting while Diaw is making assists.

Barbosa - Barbosa: Leadnro is a vastly superior player. Last season he averaged more points than Jackson and he did combined in 2004-05

Hunter - Thomas: Except for shot blocking and running the floor, KT is vastly superior to Hunter.

Overall, the Suns shooting percentage defense was better in 2004-05 (44.5% versus 45.7%) but last seaon's team shot better: 49.4% versus 47.7%). 2004-05 they shot 93.3% for three compared to 2006-07 of 39.9%. We think of the 2004-05 team shooting a huge number of threes, but they hit only 11 more than last season.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

The issue of calling timeouts when the other team starts making a run is something they need to look at, but IMHO the real problem is the Suns tendency to keep shooting low percentage shots when the other team is making a push.

In practical terms, the Suns style is not about D'Antoni, it's the Colangelos. They believe in the up tempo style and hired D'Antoni to make it work. They filled up on the kind players suited to that style well before Mike took over. JC went so far as to push through changes in the rules to encourage the kind of style he believes in.

I for one wanted more balance. I was amazed at how many people opposed the trade for KT a couple of years ago and how many people wanted to trade him last year and even right before the trade deadline. Where are all the "trade KT" fans now after it turns out he was essential to have a chance against the Spurs?

Beyond the need to play KT against the Spurs from the start, most of the other criticisms of D'Antoni seem to miss the core problem. The Spurs are vastly better at playing their style than anybody else is. If the Suns play like the Spurs, they lose in 4. Forget about how many All Stars the Suns have. Play slow down, bump and grind and the Suns lose.

Why is it so hard to understand that? It's not D'Antoni's fault that the Spurs have Duncan and the Suns don't. Was there somebody available last year at #29 that would have given the Suns a chance to beat the Spurs playing bump and grind?

D'Antoni's theory is that the only way to beat the Spurs is to get the tempo up and not let the Spurs get set in their half court defense. You may not like that strategy, but that is the approach the team has been built on for the last four to five years.

There is no evidence that changing the style during the regular season is going to make a material difference in being able to deal with the Spurs. D'Antoni's goal is to find ways to do a better job of what the Suns do best rather than doing a bad job of playing like the Spurs. Of course if they hired a hug to injure Duncan, I guess they COULD play like the Spurs.

your argument is contradictory. in one paragraph you state the importance of kt. in another you state that dantoni needs to do his thing rather than adapt to play the spurs game. playing kt is directly in opposition to dantoni's philosophy and represents an adaption to the spurs way of play.

unfortunately for dantoni his philosophy can be picked apart by a good strategist like pop. pop makes adjustments to the way his teams play based on what the other team does best or worst. sticking to your guns without acknowledging the fact that the other team has figured you out (and let's face it, when you've got time to prepare and 7 games to figure out a team you CAN take away some of what they do best, and that's what the spurs have excelled at when they face the suns) is professional suicide. and thus far, other than his increased playtime of kt (and then only after he screwed the pooch in game 1), dantoni has shown little inclination for adaptation.

 

[Joe Mama]

Stoudemire - Probably a little better and much better shooting fom the outside

I may be in the minority here (actually I might not be), but I think the 2004-05 Amare Stoudemire was much better. If his jump shot was better this season I really don't think it was much. For most of this season he relied almost entirely on Steve Nash to get him shots near the basket. A couple years ago and he could take any player in the NBA to the basket and score, get fouled, or both. Defensively he might be a little better now, but he is still pretty lousy.

Joe Mama

 

[Covert Rain]

I may be in the minority here (actually I might not be), but I think the 2004-05 Amare Stoudemire was much better. If his jump shot was better this season I really don't think it was much. For most of this season he relied almost entirely on Steve Nash to get him shots near the basket. A couple years ago and he could take any player in the NBA to the basket and score, get fouled, or both. Defensively he might be a little better now, but he is still pretty lousy.

Joe Mama

No way was he better. That Stat might have been more athletic with better hops but not better. If you remember correctly Amare used to get called with a bunch of charging fouls. He used to dunk on more people but he used to go blindly to the hole a bunch too.

His jump shot, free throws and passing all have improved. His defense a little bit. Also, Amare still can drive to the hole and get fouled. He was one of the leaders again in the NBA getting to the line.

I am also not convinced Amare was not 100% last year. Almost everybody that has had that injury says it takes at least 2 years to get fully back. Everybody was amazed at what Amare could do this year. I will take a smarter Amare of the raw talent he was in 2004 any day of the week even if that means he never gets his mad hops back.

 

[azirish]

your argument is contradictory. in one paragraph you state the importance of kt. in another you state that dantoni needs to do his thing rather than adapt to play the spurs game. playing kt is directly in opposition to dantoni's philosophy and represents an adaption to the spurs way of play.

unfortunately for dantoni his philosophy can be picked apart by a good strategist like pop. pop makes adjustments to the way his teams play based on what the other team does best or worst. sticking to your guns without acknowledging the fact that the other team has figured you out (and let's face it, when you've got time to prepare and 7 games to figure out a team you CAN take away some of what they do best, and that's what the spurs have excelled at when they face the suns) is professional suicide. and thus far, other than his increased playtime of kt (and then only after he screwed the pooch in game 1), dantoni has shown little inclination for adaptation.

Part of the reason it seems confusing is that I think it is possible to maintain a running style with KT in the lineup. I'm not sure KT is ideal for the running style, but playing him is not the same as reverting to the walki it up style of the Spurs.

The trade-off of playing Marion versus a conventional big is that Marion is usually very good at playing denial and causes opponent's problems on the other end of the court (his ppg is almost double that of KT on a per minute basis). Marion is as good or better rebounder than KT, but KT gives better blockouts.

One major problem Marion has in defending Duncan is that the Spurs do not rely soly on Parker to get him the ball. The Spurs use wings like Manu to make entry passes, so Marion's typical denial approach is twarted.

I certainly hope the Suns study the Spurs approaches at getting the ball inside. IMHO, this is one of the Suns biggest failings since I feel the Suns fail to fully use Amare.

 

[Chaplin]

I'm right here with you on this one cheese. I am a hater of posts where people are labeled as haters for being critical or somewhat pessimistic. You probably should have included a little bit more of his post though.

By the way, with the hyperbole?

"So people who now don't believe DA is the end-all and be-all are now haters?"

You and I both know that George doesn't believe Mike D'Antoni is the "end-all and be-all". We both know that he's talking about a few guys here who are constantly critical of coach Mike.

Joe

This is an interesting argument, actually, with a lot of validity. However, these same people that are complaining that they are called "haters" do the same thing to those of us that try to keep a positive outlook on the team. Whether it's being called a "hater" or wearing "rose-colored glasses", EVERYONE on this site has been guilty of demeaning behavior. To me, there's not a lot of difference between the two--each has differing opinions, and each considers those against their opinions as being completely wrong, albeit in different degrees. But the gist is still the same.

 

[Errntknght]

cheesebeef,

the haters Knight! The Haters! You know, like all those people (who no one remembers) who blasted the Suns for getting Thomas and who for some inexplicable reason wanted him traded at this year's trading deadline. You know, all those people (who no one remembers).

Dang it all cheese, why did you have to reply? Now George can let it go... not that he'd actually do anything but go off on some irrelevant tangent.

 

[azirish]

This is an interesting argument, actually, with a lot of validity. However, these same people that are complaining that they are called "haters" do the same thing to those of us that try to keep a positive outlook on the team. Whether it's being called a "hater" or wearing "rose-colored glasses", EVERYONE on this site has been guilty of demeaning behavior. To me, there's not a lot of difference between the two--each has differing opinions, and each considers those against their opinions as being completely wrong, albeit in different degrees. But the gist is still the same.

I'm sorry I used the term "haters", but I'm not sure how to describe the style of the attacks on D'Antoni I find unwarrented. I'm certainly not inclined toward some sort of either-or. Mike is neither a god nor an idiot.

At the same time, is it so hard to beleive that D'Antoni is a great coach while still wishing he'd some things differently?

But in the end, I think Chap is on the right track. I doubt anyone wout be interested in a forum where everyone agreed, but escallating disagreements into personal attacks does no good. I'm sorry that my comments had the effect of escalating the conflict.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

Part of the reason it seems confusing is that I think it is possible to maintain a running style with KT in the lineup. I'm not sure KT is ideal for the running style, but playing him is not the same as reverting to the walki it up style of the Spurs.

The trade-off of playing Marion versus a conventional big is that Marion is usually very good at playing denial and causes opponent's problems on the other end of the court (his ppg is almost double that of KT on a per minute basis). Marion is as good or better rebounder than KT, but KT gives better blockouts.

One major problem Marion has in defending Duncan is that the Spurs do not rely soly on Parker to get him the ball. The Spurs use wings like Manu to make entry passes, so Marion's typical denial approach is twarted.

I certainly hope the Suns study the Spurs approaches at getting the ball inside. IMHO, this is one of the Suns biggest failings since I feel the Suns fail to fully use Amare.

though i agree with you the problem is that apparently dantoni does not. he sees kurt as bogging down the running game. and if it's a contradiction in dantoni's mind, that's the only thing that matters.

and i completely agree with your last point, we don't pump the ball in to amare like we should. not only does he get higher percentage shots, but it puts the other teams' bigs at risk b/c he draws fouls at such a great clip. it serves two purposes, one beneficial to us and the other detrimental to the other team whereas shooting 3s only has the upside of us scoring with no apparent affirmative downside to our opposition.

 

[Ouchie-Z-Clown]

albeit in different degrees. But the gist is still the same.

i disagree, i think very few on here recognize the "different degrees" . . and that, unfortunately, is the reason there is so much bickering.

 

[Rab]

It's funny to me how such a small disagreement can turn into something bigger.

Those who find faults in coaches and players are not trying to drag fan morale down, or become the negative spinner on things. By talking about these faults, it seems most try to discuss the ways to improve them. The problem is that there is always the person who thinks that if something negative is said, that person is launching their own personal attacks on the team they love.

You can only defend to a certain point or you're labled an irrational homer, and you can only criticize to a certain point, or you're labled a hater (ahhh I can't stand that term).

The trick is to find that gray area where you can defend and criticize without making things personal.

 

[azirish]

and i completely agree with your last point, we don't pump the ball in to amare like we should. not only does he get higher percentage shots, but it puts the other teams' bigs at risk b/c he draws fouls at such a great clip. it serves two purposes, one beneficial to us and the other detrimental to the other team whereas shooting 3s only has the upside of us scoring with no apparent affirmative downside to our opposition.

I think just using Amare on the pick and roll is too limiting.

One of my great hopes is that Hill will focus on getting the ball to Amare in the low post. To me, drive and dump plays are a great way to get him the ball for high percentage shots. I'd also like to see more two man game to pull the double team guy away.

One of the problems with Jones was that he 0.6 assists per game.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I may be in the minority here (actually I might not be), but I think the 2004-05 Amare Stoudemire was much better. If his jump shot was better this season I really don't think it was much. For most of this season he relied almost entirely on Steve Nash to get him shots near the basket. A couple years ago and he could take any player in the NBA to the basket and score, get fouled, or both. Defensively he might be a little better now, but he is still pretty lousy.

Joe Mama

i'm totally with you Joe on every point above.

 

[Cheesebeef]

I'm right here with you on this one cheese. I am a hater of posts where people are labeled as haters for being critical or somewhat pessimistic. You probably should have included a little bit more of his post though.

By the way, with the hyperbole?

"So people who now don't believe DA is the end-all and be-all are now haters?"

You and I both know that George doesn't believe Mike D'Antoni is the "end-all and be-all". We both know that he's talking about a few guys here who are constantly critical of coach Mike.

Hyperbole? Joe, George pointed to something Ouchie and I SPECIFICALLY referrenced as the main ammo for "haters", which puts me in the hater club, no? Now considering that I have already said in this very same thread that DA is a VERY, VERY GOOD coach, if I'm STILL a hater in George's eyes, where is there left to go to not be a hater? Higher than "very, very good" pretty much is the "end all and be-all", no?

 

[green machine]

I may be in the minority here (actually I might not be), but I think the 2004-05 Amare Stoudemire was much better. If his jump shot was better this season I really don't think it was much. For most of this season he relied almost entirely on Steve Nash to get him shots near the basket. A couple years ago and he could take any player in the NBA to the basket and score, get fouled, or both. Defensively he might be a little better now, but he is still pretty lousy.

Joe Mama

The 04-05 STAT was quicker and more aggressive on his own, but I think we started to see more of that guy in the playoffs.

I hope (and think) that more of the explosiveness and quickness will be back next year, as the more time Amare has to recover from the surgery the better he will be.

 

[Joe Mama]

Hyperbole? Joe, George pointed to something Ouchie and I SPECIFICALLY referrenced as the main ammo for "haters", which puts me in the hater club, no? Now considering that I have already said in this very same thread that DA is a VERY, VERY GOOD coach, if I'm STILL a hater in George's eyes, where is there left to go to not be a hater? Higher than "very, very good" pretty much is the "end all and be-all", no?

Just went back and read George's original post again (if you included at least the rest of the sentence where he used the term "haters" I would not have had to do that). I see your point and accept your apology.

I hate you George.

Joe

 

[Cheesebeef]

Just went back and read George's original post again (if you included at least the rest of the sentence where he used the term "haters" I would not have had to do that). I see your point and accept your apology.

I hate you George.

Joe

lol. I love ya Joe! You constantly crack me up man.